How did we lose all those OOC games?

2,006 Views | 16 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by calumnus
stu
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We're looking more than competitive against the bottom of the PAC-12. Is our conference that bad?

Lately I'm seeing solid defense and an offense with some flow. Did Fox put somebody else in charge of the offense? I don't think just having Clayton in and Askew out can explain the magnitude of the improvement.
eastcoastcal
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I am very happy for the guys on the team, as the better play is a welcome sight. However I also believe to some extent this may be a very, very down year for the Pac. There are many mediocre or worse teams in the conference this year
KoreAmBear
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How? Watch replay of last 5 mins of UW game in regulation
stu
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Good point. That was ugly.
dimitrig
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I think part of it is mental, too.

That losing streak really took its toll.

Getting that monkey off their backs means they can play more loosely. Just like winning is contagious, so is losing
calumnus
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dimitrig said:


I think part of it is mental, too.

That losing streak really took its toll.

Getting that monkey off their backs means they can play more loosely. Just like winning is contagious, so is losing



They are also looking for their shot earlier in the possession with more balanced scoring instead of milking clock and letting Askew be the Shepherd, Bradley replacement trying to score as time expires.
AunBear89
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According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
oskidunker
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The oc teams were better than Stanford as was Santa Clara.
Go Bears!
calumnus
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AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
calumnus
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oskidunker said:

The oc teams were better than Stanford as was Santa Clara.


UC San Diego is now 1-4 in the Big West. They lost to Sac State and Cal State Bakersfield, but beat us.

Stanford beat Florida State on a neutral court by 10.

We are making the rest of the PAC-12 LOOK bad, but we were clearly terrible and are now playing better.
Bear8995
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calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
Agree. I could be wrong but I think AunBear was being sarcastic (meaning, I think AunBear buys into the injury narrative, at least a little).

As for counting games with missing injured players:
  • Hyder would NOT play even if healthy. Disingenuous to count his missing games.
  • Celestine tore an ACL at the end of last season. Everyone knew he would be out for most, if not all of this season. A bit disingenuous to count the games he is missing as Fox had plenty of time to find someone else to replace him.
  • As you pointed out, the walk ons wouldn't normally play. Can't believe he is really counting those games.
  • Clayton would have definitely helped during the OOC games and perhaps we would have pulled out 2-3 of them if he played. So yeah, we can count the games he was out.
  • Askew is a decent player but we had our 2 highest offensive outputs when he was out. In my opinion, he dribbles way too much and the offense stagnates while he dribbles around. But OK, we can count those games too.

In general:
  • Kuany has stepped it up in the past few games. He still turns the ball over and makes some head scratching plays, but he is playing with a lot more energy and is shooting better.
  • Lars is Lars. I think his stats are better than he really is. His hands are a serious liability.
  • Joel Brown has stepped up and is being more aggressive attacking the rim. I think this one change has made the biggest difference for us offensively. The ball should be in his hands and he should have the green light to attack the rim to draw defenders to him so he can kick it, or take it to the rim if help doesn't come.
  • Alajiki can be a 3 and D guy but needs to be more consistent shooting from 3.
  • Roberson is athletic but not a P5 player.
  • Bowser takes too long to shoot and even when he has time, isn't a dead eye shooter. Not a P5 player.
  • Not sure what to do with Anyanwu. Doesn't do anything particularly well. I would have the difficult conversation with him, Bowser and Roberson and free up those scholarships.
  • Newell is a keeper. Dude is impressive and keeps getting better.
  • Okafor is athletic for a big guy I hope he sticks around.
  • We need to replace, Lars, Hyder, Kuany, Clayton and Joel Brown. I think because of COVID, Kuany, Lars and Joel (and maybe Hyder) have another year of eligibility but I'd prefer they move on and we get other players to replace them.
stu
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We also need to have that difficult conversation with the coaching staff, remaining eligibility or not.
JimSox
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Bear8995 said:

calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
Agree. I could be wrong but I think AunBear was being sarcastic (meaning, I think AunBear buys into the injury narrative, at least a little).

As for counting games with missing injured players:
  • Hyder would NOT play even if healthy. Disingenuous to count his missing games.
  • Celestine tore an ACL at the end of last season. Everyone knew he would be out for most, if not all of this season. A bit disingenuous to count the games he is missing as Fox had plenty of time to find someone else to replace him.
  • As you pointed out, the walk ons wouldn't normally play. Can't believe he is really counting those games.
  • Clayton would have definitely helped during the OOC games and perhaps we would have pulled out 2-3 of them if he played. So yeah, we can count the games he was out.
  • Askew is a decent player but we had our 2 highest offensive outputs when he was out. In my opinion, he dribbles way too much and the offense stagnates while he dribbles around. But OK, we can count those games too.

In general:
  • Kuany has stepped it up in the past few games. He still turns the ball over and makes some head scratching plays, but he is playing with a lot more energy and is shooting better.
  • Lars is Lars. I think his stats are better than he really is. His hands are a serious liability.
  • Joel Brown has stepped up and is being more aggressive attacking the rim. I think this one change has made the biggest difference for us offensively. The ball should be in his hands and he should have the green light to attack the rim to draw defenders to him so he can kick it, or take it to the rim if help doesn't come.
  • Alajiki can be a 3 and D guy but needs to be more consistent shooting from 3.
  • Roberson is athletic but not a P5 player.
  • Bowser takes too long to shoot and even when he has time, isn't a dead eye shooter. Not a P5 player.
  • Not sure what to do with Anyanwu. Doesn't do anything particularly well. I would have the difficult conversation with him, Bowser and Roberson and free up those scholarships.
  • Newell is a keeper. Dude is impressive and keeps getting better.
  • Okafor is athletic for a big guy I hope he sticks around.
  • We need to replace, Lars, Hyder, Kuany, Clayton and Joel Brown. I think because of COVID, Kuany, Lars and Joel (and maybe Hyder) have another year of eligibility but I'd prefer they move on and we get other players to replace them.



You want to replace Kuany, Lars and Joel? Don't agree with that. They all have flaws but they're clearly P5 players. But I'm not sure which if any of them has another year of eligibility.
Askew's return, if it ever happens, should be a big plus. That's assuming he can work with Clayton and not take it on himself to be the entire offense. With proper coaching shouldn't be a problem. (Oh, wait.)
HoopDreams
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agree. no excuse to losing all those games

everyone has injuries

calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
calumnus
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JimSox said:

Bear8995 said:

calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
Agree. I could be wrong but I think AunBear was being sarcastic (meaning, I think AunBear buys into the injury narrative, at least a little).

As for counting games with missing injured players:
  • Hyder would NOT play even if healthy. Disingenuous to count his missing games.
  • Celestine tore an ACL at the end of last season. Everyone knew he would be out for most, if not all of this season. A bit disingenuous to count the games he is missing as Fox had plenty of time to find someone else to replace him.
  • As you pointed out, the walk ons wouldn't normally play. Can't believe he is really counting those games.
  • Clayton would have definitely helped during the OOC games and perhaps we would have pulled out 2-3 of them if he played. So yeah, we can count the games he was out.
  • Askew is a decent player but we had our 2 highest offensive outputs when he was out. In my opinion, he dribbles way too much and the offense stagnates while he dribbles around. But OK, we can count those games too.

In general:
  • Kuany has stepped it up in the past few games. He still turns the ball over and makes some head scratching plays, but he is playing with a lot more energy and is shooting better.
  • Lars is Lars. I think his stats are better than he really is. His hands are a serious liability.
  • Joel Brown has stepped up and is being more aggressive attacking the rim. I think this one change has made the biggest difference for us offensively. The ball should be in his hands and he should have the green light to attack the rim to draw defenders to him so he can kick it, or take it to the rim if help doesn't come.
  • Alajiki can be a 3 and D guy but needs to be more consistent shooting from 3.
  • Roberson is athletic but not a P5 player.
  • Bowser takes too long to shoot and even when he has time, isn't a dead eye shooter. Not a P5 player.
  • Not sure what to do with Anyanwu. Doesn't do anything particularly well. I would have the difficult conversation with him, Bowser and Roberson and free up those scholarships.
  • Newell is a keeper. Dude is impressive and keeps getting better.
  • Okafor is athletic for a big guy I hope he sticks around.
  • We need to replace, Lars, Hyder, Kuany, Clayton and Joel Brown. I think because of COVID, Kuany, Lars and Joel (and maybe Hyder) have another year of eligibility but I'd prefer they move on and we get other players to replace them.



You want to replace Kuany, Lars and Joel? Don't agree with that. They all have flaws but they're clearly P5 players. But I'm not sure which if any of them has another year of eligibility.
Askew's return, if it ever happens, should be a big plus. That's assuming he can work with Clayton and not take it on himself to be the entire offense. With proper coaching shouldn't be a problem. (Oh, wait.)


At Texas Askew averaged 2.1 pts and 1.3 assists per game playing 14.9 minutes per game. At Kentucky he averaged 6.5 pts and 2.9 assists per game playing 28.9 min.

It is not Askew, it is clearly Fox that has asked Askew to take on the hero-ball-at-the-end-of-the-shot-clock role that is his preferred offense (is there any doubt Fox would have yanked Askew if he was not doing what he wanted?). It is up to Fox to let the team continue to play a more balanced, up tempo style (and not give it up when we have the lead). I am sure Askew would adapt to that just fine.
HoopDreams
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it would have been good to have Askew in the last five minutes of the UW game

he's a baller who wants the ball in the big moments

calumnus said:

JimSox said:

Bear8995 said:

calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
Agree. I could be wrong but I think AunBear was being sarcastic (meaning, I think AunBear buys into the injury narrative, at least a little).

As for counting games with missing injured players:
  • Hyder would NOT play even if healthy. Disingenuous to count his missing games.
  • Celestine tore an ACL at the end of last season. Everyone knew he would be out for most, if not all of this season. A bit disingenuous to count the games he is missing as Fox had plenty of time to find someone else to replace him.
  • As you pointed out, the walk ons wouldn't normally play. Can't believe he is really counting those games.
  • Clayton would have definitely helped during the OOC games and perhaps we would have pulled out 2-3 of them if he played. So yeah, we can count the games he was out.
  • Askew is a decent player but we had our 2 highest offensive outputs when he was out. In my opinion, he dribbles way too much and the offense stagnates while he dribbles around. But OK, we can count those games too.

In general:
  • Kuany has stepped it up in the past few games. He still turns the ball over and makes some head scratching plays, but he is playing with a lot more energy and is shooting better.
  • Lars is Lars. I think his stats are better than he really is. His hands are a serious liability.
  • Joel Brown has stepped up and is being more aggressive attacking the rim. I think this one change has made the biggest difference for us offensively. The ball should be in his hands and he should have the green light to attack the rim to draw defenders to him so he can kick it, or take it to the rim if help doesn't come.
  • Alajiki can be a 3 and D guy but needs to be more consistent shooting from 3.
  • Roberson is athletic but not a P5 player.
  • Bowser takes too long to shoot and even when he has time, isn't a dead eye shooter. Not a P5 player.
  • Not sure what to do with Anyanwu. Doesn't do anything particularly well. I would have the difficult conversation with him, Bowser and Roberson and free up those scholarships.
  • Newell is a keeper. Dude is impressive and keeps getting better.
  • Okafor is athletic for a big guy I hope he sticks around.
  • We need to replace, Lars, Hyder, Kuany, Clayton and Joel Brown. I think because of COVID, Kuany, Lars and Joel (and maybe Hyder) have another year of eligibility but I'd prefer they move on and we get other players to replace them.



You want to replace Kuany, Lars and Joel? Don't agree with that. They all have flaws but they're clearly P5 players. But I'm not sure which if any of them has another year of eligibility.
Askew's return, if it ever happens, should be a big plus. That's assuming he can work with Clayton and not take it on himself to be the entire offense. With proper coaching shouldn't be a problem. (Oh, wait.)


At Texas Askew averaged 2.1 pts and 1.3 assists per game playing 14.9 minutes per game. At Kentucky he averaged 6.5 pts and 2.9 assists per game playing 28.9 min.

It is not Askew, it is clearly Fox that has asked Askew to take on the hero-ball-at-the-end-of-the-shot-clock role that is his preferred offense (is there any doubt Fox would have yanked Askew if he was not doing what he wanted?). It is up to Fox to let the team continue to play a more balanced, up tempo style (and not give it up when we have the lead). I am sure Askew would adapt to that just fine.
calumnus
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HoopDreams said:

it would have been good to have Askew in the last five minutes of the UW game

he's a baller who wants the ball in the big moments

calumnus said:

JimSox said:

Bear8995 said:

calumnus said:

AunBear89 said:

According to BI experts, it had NOTHING to do with injuries.


Sure. It is just a really poor excuse when you lose to teams like UC Davis and UC San Diego (transitioning to D1) with coaches making $80,000 per year when you make $2 million. Backups at Cal should be able to beat the weakest UC schools (admissions isn't even an excuse).

Especially when you are counting backups and walkons and your coach has ZERO history of playing walkons. Fox said actually claimed Celestine, Clayton and Hyder were "all projected starters" who presumably would have started with Brown and Askew for a 5 guard lineup?

Our best returning players, statistically, were Lars, Kuany and Alajiki. With Brown and Askew at guard we had our projected starting lineup healthy.

Moreover, the only guy playing now that was injured is Clayton, but Askew was playing during the losses and now he is out. On paper, that looks like a swap. Yet we are playing MUCH better. So "injuries" is a poor explanation for why we lost so many OOC games while playing the weakest OOC schedule in memory.
Agree. I could be wrong but I think AunBear was being sarcastic (meaning, I think AunBear buys into the injury narrative, at least a little).

As for counting games with missing injured players:
  • Hyder would NOT play even if healthy. Disingenuous to count his missing games.
  • Celestine tore an ACL at the end of last season. Everyone knew he would be out for most, if not all of this season. A bit disingenuous to count the games he is missing as Fox had plenty of time to find someone else to replace him.
  • As you pointed out, the walk ons wouldn't normally play. Can't believe he is really counting those games.
  • Clayton would have definitely helped during the OOC games and perhaps we would have pulled out 2-3 of them if he played. So yeah, we can count the games he was out.
  • Askew is a decent player but we had our 2 highest offensive outputs when he was out. In my opinion, he dribbles way too much and the offense stagnates while he dribbles around. But OK, we can count those games too.

In general:
  • Kuany has stepped it up in the past few games. He still turns the ball over and makes some head scratching plays, but he is playing with a lot more energy and is shooting better.
  • Lars is Lars. I think his stats are better than he really is. His hands are a serious liability.
  • Joel Brown has stepped up and is being more aggressive attacking the rim. I think this one change has made the biggest difference for us offensively. The ball should be in his hands and he should have the green light to attack the rim to draw defenders to him so he can kick it, or take it to the rim if help doesn't come.
  • Alajiki can be a 3 and D guy but needs to be more consistent shooting from 3.
  • Roberson is athletic but not a P5 player.
  • Bowser takes too long to shoot and even when he has time, isn't a dead eye shooter. Not a P5 player.
  • Not sure what to do with Anyanwu. Doesn't do anything particularly well. I would have the difficult conversation with him, Bowser and Roberson and free up those scholarships.
  • Newell is a keeper. Dude is impressive and keeps getting better.
  • Okafor is athletic for a big guy I hope he sticks around.
  • We need to replace, Lars, Hyder, Kuany, Clayton and Joel Brown. I think because of COVID, Kuany, Lars and Joel (and maybe Hyder) have another year of eligibility but I'd prefer they move on and we get other players to replace them.



You want to replace Kuany, Lars and Joel? Don't agree with that. They all have flaws but they're clearly P5 players. But I'm not sure which if any of them has another year of eligibility.
Askew's return, if it ever happens, should be a big plus. That's assuming he can work with Clayton and not take it on himself to be the entire offense. With proper coaching shouldn't be a problem. (Oh, wait.)


At Texas Askew averaged 2.1 pts and 1.3 assists per game playing 14.9 minutes per game. At Kentucky he averaged 6.5 pts and 2.9 assists per game playing 28.9 min.

It is not Askew, it is clearly Fox that has asked Askew to take on the hero-ball-at-the-end-of-the-shot-clock role that is his preferred offense (is there any doubt Fox would have yanked Askew if he was not doing what he wanted?). It is up to Fox to let the team continue to play a more balanced, up tempo style (and not give it up when we have the lead). I am sure Askew would adapt to that just fine.



Yeah, it is tough to play the final minutes of close games when your PG is your worst free throw shooter. We do want Askew and Clayton in when it comes down to free throws.

One of the reasons slowing it down and trying to ride out the lead was a mistake.
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