oskidunker said:
Well I dont know but a month ago Madsen was pretty high on Bowser , Wowsers, The rumor is he is injured. Someone from the press needs to ask. Madsen isnt Fox. He is ok with tough questions.
is you are talking about UW's 7 foot Kepnang, he was suppose to be back 2 weeks ago.bearister said:
Just perused Washington box scores. The formidable Huskie Center went down for the count vs the Beavers and now they have a forward who is undersized for the position filling in. Look for Daws to abuse him. They have scorers so we may be looking at another O situation where to win we either have to defend the 3 ball or drop more of them than they do.
bearister said:
Just perused Washington box scores. The formidable Huskie Center went down for the count vs the Beavers and now they have a forward who is undersized for the position filling in. Look for Daws to abuse him. They have scorers so we may be looking at another O situation where to win we either have to defend the 3 ball or drop more of them than they do.
bearister said:
Look for Daws to abuse (the Washington center). They have scorers so we may be looking at another O situation where to win we either have to defend the 3 ball or drop more of them than they do.
bearister said:
I made a mistake on back up C's height. At least he isn't a scoring threat. Currently Avg. 4 PTS 4.7 REB
Kepnang Out for Season After Oregon State Mishap - Sports Illustrated Washington Huskies News, Analysis and More
https://www.si.com/college/washington/basketball/kepnang-reportedly-out-for-season-after-oregon-state-mishap
There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, but only on 7 attempts, and he could be given more minutes, and more shot attempts to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
calumnus said:SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, but only on 7 attempts, and he could be given more minutes, and more shot attempts to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
SF, great post.
I know this is old news, but it's a 5 vs. 5 game. Circumstances sometimes dictate individual play and individual stats. It's great that you guys are having fun with this, but let's all agree. A Cal win with a sh*tty Daws' game will always be better than a Cal loss with Daws dominating. Go Bears!barsad said:bearister said:
Look for Daws to abuse (the Washington center). They have scorers so we may be looking at another O situation where to win we either have to defend the 3 ball or drop more of them than they do.
I'll be there in person and will be the first one to rise and shout as Daws dominates and puts up another double-double. On the other hand, if he fouls out with 10 min left, puts up a few awkward baby hook bricks… Gus, get in there!
One more dead horse I would like to beat in addition to SFCB spot on post. We've played 17 games now. I would like to see MM implement an option off of our offensive rotation when Grant is in the game to get the ball fed to him closer to the hoop. Last year several times Grant showed strong ability to score from the inside, but this year that's been lost because a much higher percentage of Grant's shots have come from 3 point distance. Again, Grant is more effective RECEIVING the ball inside as opposed to dribbling to get there.SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, but only on 7 attempts, and he could be given more minutes, and more shot attempts to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
You are right. My bad. I corrected the post.oskidunker said:calumnus said:SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, but only on 7 attempts, and he could be given more minutes, and more shot attempts to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
SF, great post.
Brown is 16-30 three point shooting. The 7 you mention is free throws.
All of this three point shooting we are doing might be the result of having to play without Askew. He is the only one of our guards who seems to be able to get to the rim and create for others.RedlessWardrobe said:One more dead horse I would like to beat in addition to SFCB spot on post. We've played 17 games now. I would like to see MM implement an option off of our offensive rotation when Grant is in the game to get the ball fed to him closer to the hoop. Last year several times Grant showed strong ability to score from the inside, but this year that's been lost because a much higher percentage of Grant's shots have come from 3 point distance. Again, Grant is more effective RECEIVING the ball inside as opposed to dribbling to get there.SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, but only on 7 attempts, and he could be given more minutes, and more shot attempts to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
That's the problem. Most threes made on subpar shooting means too many attempts.SFCityBear said:
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Right. So do you think he being encouraged by his coach to take this many attempts, or is he doing it on his own?Civil Bear said:That's the problem. Most threes made on subpar shooting means too many attempts.SFCityBear said:
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
I'd guess he is taking most of the off-balance ones on his own. That said, I doubt MM wants to discourage him from shooting. It's a fine line, but as a senior Cone should know not to take low-percentage shots early in the shot-clock.SFCityBear said:Right. So do you think he being encouraged by his coach to take this many attempts, or is he doing it on his own?Civil Bear said:That's the problem. Most threes made on subpar shooting means too many attempts.SFCityBear said:
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
It is also curious that he is attempting far fewer two point shots than he did at Northern Arizona, so that his total shot attempts per game, three pointers and two pointers together are about the same as he had at Northern Arizona.RedlessWardrobe said:
My guess on this is this issue is that it's more of a case that Cone is NOT being discouraged by MM to keep shooting.
upsetof86 said:Oakbear said:
Been feeling this way for some time, takes too many shots
If I'm the opponent I just lay off him let him launch as many as he wants. Of all 3 PAC 12 games yesterday the highest number of assists by a single player was 5. One of the games with upwards of 140 combined points.
SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, and he could be given more minutes to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
On this team I'd probably pick the guy who's having the best game that particular day out of Cone, Celestine, Brown or Tyson with the proviso that it's a good shot.HoopDreams said:
I am not saying anything different
Part of being a good shooter is knowing a good shot from a bad shot
The worst bad shot he took was jacking up a contested 3 early in clock when we were up 2 with under a minute which probably lost the game
I think people are confused by my 'best shooter' comment
If you picked one player to shoot the ball off the bounce who would you pick? I'd pick Cone by a large margin
For catch and shoot I'd pick Cone or Celestine, or If game was on the line under a minute I might pick Tyson even though his form is a little unorthodox
The problem is cone takes too many bad shots. Part of that is him, part of that is his teammates, and part of that is our offense
One thing is clear Madsen wants to spread the floor with shooters, which also opens the floor for slashersbluesaxe said:The math is clear that they are equivalent, but good three point shooters are in the high 30"s into the 40's. Cone isn't a good three point shooter. He's a streaky three point shooter who seems to think he's better than he is. By shooting bad shots he's taking away the team's opportunities for better shots. It's more indicative of a player's efficiency to look at effective field goal percentage, which combines the two. His is quite low, 8th on the team.eastcoastcal said:
good point on the kick outs but I dont think 33% is equal to 50% from 2..? You're very knowledgable hoop so I don't want to directly contradict you but 33% has to be significantly lower than 50% from the field, no? It would place him as the 220th best team 3 point% average out of 351 eligible teams, to give you an idea of where he would stand when compared to a large sample size. Meaning 220 teams as a whole shoot better from 3 than him, and he's supposed to be our best shooter. And his FG% is second worst on the team, only ahead of Askew (not a shooter) and Monty (doesn't play). He really hasn't shot the ball well imo.
Cal is 48th in three pointers attempted, shooting 34% as a TEAM and ranks only 161st in three point percentage. Cone has taken 167 of the team's 448 three point attempts and is the seventh best by percentage on the team. That's something the coaches should be correcting.
He has so many makes because he takes so many threes, not because he's efficient at it. 31% may not be atrocious for an occasional shooter, but for a guy who takes WAY more of them than anyone on the team it's bad. It's nowhere near good. He is in the bottom 15% of the conference in eFG%. Again, really bad. And the basic problem imo is shot selection.SFCityBear said:There have been a lot of good posts in this thread, but I'd like to bring this thread back on topic for a moment and answer the original post.eastcoastcal said:
I'm sorry, Cone is such a liability. When he's on a cold streak (often) he is just such a huge detriment on the floor. Very undersized for defense and doesn't bring nearly enough in terms of facilitation or anything else to justify his atrocious shooting. He's shooting 33% from the field and 32% from 3 this season. I know we don't have many other options but we have to talk about his performance. 2/9 from the field today and 1/8 from beyond the arc. For a supposed 3 point specialist on such big volume, shooting 32% from 3 on the season is unacceptable. It would be different if he was a streaky PG who could distribute or a streaky 3&D guy, but his only major skillset is shooting which has been bad this season.
Absolutely not my intention to rag on a guy but at some point we need to get better efficiency or selectively use him in specific scenarios. I know he has the talent to knock them down but I've been disappointed with his shot selection at times- I'd expect more from a veteran player.
Not even making this post because I'm mad about the Oregon loss- they're a good team and I liked that we made it pretty close. But if we want to win more games down the stretch, we simply can't give Cone this many minutes with such bad efficiency.
I think you are being too harsh on Jalen Cone.
First, while he is shooting 31.7% from threes, that is not "atrocious". I calculated the 3P% for the entire PAC12 conference, and the PAC12 shooters average 35.3% on threes. Cone is only about 3% below that at 31.7%
And then there is this: Cone is second in the PAC12 in three point baskets made.
Obviously, it has not been a good year for Cone and for Cal. Cone has not shot well. In fact, this is the worst season shooting the ball that Cone has ever had in college. His worst FG%, his 2nd worst 2P%, his worst 3P%, and his worst FT%. He shot threes at 45.7% as a freshman at VA Tech in the ACC, 34.9% as a soph (injured and played only 15 games), 35.2% as a junior at N. Arizona, and 40.0% as a senior.
Looking at the schedule for the pre-conference season, Cone had 4 very good games so far shooting the 3 ball (shooting 26/53) and three games when he did not shoot well (4-29). In PAC12 play, Cone has not shot threes well (8/40). This is expected, as defenses and defenders in the PAC12 are better than most of the pre-conference opponents we faced.
I think Cone is being asked to do too much at Cal. He has played more minutes per game (36.3) than in any other season. Madsen has been handicapped by not having anyone who could play the shooting guard position with Askew injured, and for several games, he did not even have Kennedy. Brown is coming along, but was very raw to start with.
It is interesting to look at Cone's free throw shooting. He has a history of very good to excellent free throw shooting: 89% as a freshman, 85% as a soph, 83% as a junior, 86% as a senior, and now 81% at Cal. It may mean nothing, but the drop in his percentage this season could very well be some fatigue, from playing so many minutes and having to take so many shots.
I am also wondering if Madsen and his staff have tried to get Cone to put on more bulk and muscle, as he weighs only 165. Coaches need to be careful how they work to build up strength or bulk in a player, since some of that work can affect a player's shooting accuracy in a negative way.
Finally, in my opinion, Madsen should spread the 3 point shooting load out more to more players. Both Tyson and Aimaq should be shooting more threes, as both are capable. And Celestine, who is basically a catch and shoot player when it comes to perimeter shooting, but he has a very good 3P% of 44.4%, on few attempts, and they need to run plays for him to get open for these threes. Brown is finally capable of playing more of a role, IMO. He is a decent ball handler, and he has a very good 3P% so far, and he could be given more minutes to give Cone some rest. Most perimeter players, even the good shooters, can go into slumps, where they can't hit much more than the rim. Cone taking 10 or 15 threes, if he is not feeling hot, is not smart. I'd like to see Madsen distribute the shooting chores better. Maybe cut Cone's attempts from 10 a game to 7, and cut his minutes from 36 per game to 30 or less. Maybe Madsen has done this already, as Cone has averaged only 8 attempts per game in the PAC12.
Cone has good form,a good stroke, and a good release. He can shoot. I think he just needs some rest and some help from his teammates to take some of his load.
Here are Jalen Cone's 3 career point shooting statistics, from sports-reference.com:bluesaxe said:The math is clear that they are equivalent, but good three point shooters are in the high 30"s into the 40's. Cone isn't a good three point shooter. He's a streaky three point shooter who seems to think he's better than he is. By shooting bad shots he's taking away the team's opportunities for better shots. It's more indicative of a player's efficiency to look at effective field goal percentage, which combines the two. His is quite low, 8th on the team.eastcoastcal said:
good point on the kick outs but I dont think 33% is equal to 50% from 2..? You're very knowledgable hoop so I don't want to directly contradict you but 33% has to be significantly lower than 50% from the field, no? It would place him as the 220th best team 3 point% average out of 351 eligible teams, to give you an idea of where he would stand when compared to a large sample size. Meaning 220 teams as a whole shoot better from 3 than him, and he's supposed to be our best shooter. And his FG% is second worst on the team, only ahead of Askew (not a shooter) and Monty (doesn't play). He really hasn't shot the ball well imo.
Cal is 48th in three pointers attempted, shooting 34% as a TEAM and ranks only 161st in three point percentage. Cone has taken 167 of the team's 448 three point attempts and is the seventh best by percentage on the team. That's something the coaches should be correcting.
SFCityBear said:Here are Jalen Cone's 3 career point shooting statistics, from sports-reference.com:bluesaxe said:The math is clear that they are equivalent, but good three point shooters are in the high 30"s into the 40's. Cone isn't a good three point shooter. He's a streaky three point shooter who seems to think he's better than he is. By shooting bad shots he's taking away the team's opportunities for better shots. It's more indicative of a player's efficiency to look at effective field goal percentage, which combines the two. His is quite low, 8th on the team.eastcoastcal said:
good point on the kick outs but I dont think 33% is equal to 50% from 2..? You're very knowledgable hoop so I don't want to directly contradict you but 33% has to be significantly lower than 50% from the field, no? It would place him as the 220th best team 3 point% average out of 351 eligible teams, to give you an idea of where he would stand when compared to a large sample size. Meaning 220 teams as a whole shoot better from 3 than him, and he's supposed to be our best shooter. And his FG% is second worst on the team, only ahead of Askew (not a shooter) and Monty (doesn't play). He really hasn't shot the ball well imo.
Cal is 48th in three pointers attempted, shooting 34% as a TEAM and ranks only 161st in three point percentage. Cone has taken 167 of the team's 448 three point attempts and is the seventh best by percentage on the team. That's something the coaches should be correcting.
2020 Virginia Tech 64/140 45.7%
2021 Virginia Tech 37/106 34.9% (15 games)
2022 North Arizona 93/264 35.2%
2023 North Arizona 96/240 40.0%
Totals 290/750 38.7%
So Cone, by your very definition, was a good three point shooter for his first 4 seasons, ranging from mid 30s to mid 40s, and averaging overall in the high 30s. Usually players who were good shooters for years, don't become poor shooters overnight.
Poor shooters at Cal were guys like Jaylen Brown, Tyrone Wallace, and Sam Singer. All on the same team! How did they win any games?
Brown in 2016: 29.4%.
Ty Wallace, 4 seasons: 29.2%
Sam Singer, 4 seasons: 27.5%
Cone's 3 point shooting at Cal has been below average at 31.7%. The question we are all trying to answer is what happened, either over the summer or at Cal or both, to cause the dropoff in his shooting percentage. Is it the higher level of competition in the PAC12? Cone's best season shooting the 3 ball was his first season at Virginia Tech, where he shot 45.7%. I'd wager the ACC defenses are at least as tough at the PAC12 defenses that Cone is facing now.
Is the problem Cone selfishly forcing up a lot of off balance or unwise shots? Is he a ball hog?
Is the problem that Cone's teammates are not getting him the ball at the right time an place to have the best chance for him to get a clear shot or a lane to one?
Is the coach coaching the best system to take advantage of Cone's strengths?
How is Cone practicing? Does Madsen put Cone up against Cal's best defenders? Does he put Cone up against much taller defenders?
I read where Cone gets to the gym early in the morning, and is perspiring profusely by the time his teammates arrive. Is he working too hard? Not hard enough?
Could it be a matter of a loss of a little confidence?
Something has gone wrong for Cone from last season where he shot threes at 40%, to this season where he is shooting them at 32%. All good three point shooters have slumps, and most work their way out of them.
But Cone is a good three point shooter, and his college career prior to this season proves it. He will either shake this boogie man, or he won't.
According to sports-reference.com, he was playing less than half the minutes per game than he is playing now, less than half the 3PT shot attempts. He was probably not asked to carry a big load like he is at Cal.Civil Bear said:SFCityBear said:Here are Jalen Cone's 3 career point shooting statistics, from sports-reference.com:bluesaxe said:The math is clear that they are equivalent, but good three point shooters are in the high 30"s into the 40's. Cone isn't a good three point shooter. He's a streaky three point shooter who seems to think he's better than he is. By shooting bad shots he's taking away the team's opportunities for better shots. It's more indicative of a player's efficiency to look at effective field goal percentage, which combines the two. His is quite low, 8th on the team.eastcoastcal said:
good point on the kick outs but I dont think 33% is equal to 50% from 2..? You're very knowledgable hoop so I don't want to directly contradict you but 33% has to be significantly lower than 50% from the field, no? It would place him as the 220th best team 3 point% average out of 351 eligible teams, to give you an idea of where he would stand when compared to a large sample size. Meaning 220 teams as a whole shoot better from 3 than him, and he's supposed to be our best shooter. And his FG% is second worst on the team, only ahead of Askew (not a shooter) and Monty (doesn't play). He really hasn't shot the ball well imo.
Cal is 48th in three pointers attempted, shooting 34% as a TEAM and ranks only 161st in three point percentage. Cone has taken 167 of the team's 448 three point attempts and is the seventh best by percentage on the team. That's something the coaches should be correcting.
2020 Virginia Tech 64/140 45.7%
2021 Virginia Tech 37/106 34.9% (15 games)
2022 North Arizona 93/264 35.2%
2023 North Arizona 96/240 40.0%
Totals 290/750 38.7%
So Cone, by your very definition, was a good three point shooter for his first 4 seasons, ranging from mid 30s to mid 40s, and averaging overall in the high 30s. Usually players who were good shooters for years, don't become poor shooters overnight.
Poor shooters at Cal were guys like Jaylen Brown, Tyrone Wallace, and Sam Singer. All on the same team! How did they win any games?
Brown in 2016: 29.4%.
Ty Wallace, 4 seasons: 29.2%
Sam Singer, 4 seasons: 27.5%
Cone's 3 point shooting at Cal has been below average at 31.7%. The question we are all trying to answer is what happened, either over the summer or at Cal or both, to cause the dropoff in his shooting percentage. Is it the higher level of competition in the PAC12? Cone's best season shooting the 3 ball was his first season at Virginia Tech, where he shot 45.7%. I'd wager the ACC defenses are at least as tough at the PAC12 defenses that Cone is facing now.
Is the problem Cone selfishly forcing up a lot of off balance or unwise shots? Is he a ball hog?
Is the problem that Cone's teammates are not getting him the ball at the right time an place to have the best chance for him to get a clear shot or a lane to one?
Is the coach coaching the best system to take advantage of Cone's strengths?
How is Cone practicing? Does Madsen put Cone up against Cal's best defenders? Does he put Cone up against much taller defenders?
I read where Cone gets to the gym early in the morning, and is perspiring profusely by the time his teammates arrive. Is he working too hard? Not hard enough?
Could it be a matter of a loss of a little confidence?
Something has gone wrong for Cone from last season where he shot threes at 40%, to this season where he is shooting them at 32%. All good three point shooters have slumps, and most work their way out of them.
But Cone is a good three point shooter, and his college career prior to this season proves it. He will either shake this boogie man, or he won't.
Maybe Cone didn't take as many contested off-balance threes at VTU. Frosh typically don't get that much leeway.
Cone was not the reason for the loss today, but he jacked up two ill advised threes today both on fast breaks where we had numbers and should have easily scored twos at the rimJohnfox said:
Cone went 4-7 tonight with good shot selection tonight. That's 57%.
I think it's pretty simple. You listed four seasons, two of which I'd call good three point shooting seasons. His first year he wasn't a starter, shot an abysmal 28% from two, and only took 4.4 threes per game in 18 minutes. I'd bet his role was much more of a spot shooter and he was playing against other bench players. His second season he played 19 mpg, wasn't a starter, shot 7 threes per game and dropped his percentage 12+ points to a very average 35%. Then he moved to a much weaker conference, played 30+ minutes per game, shot 8 and 7 threes a game, and had one good year as a senior. So my read is he had one high percentage year as a bench player in a good conference and one as a starter in a much weaker conference. You put a lot more stock in those numbers than I do, and honestly I don't care about those years. I would note that he has never had a season in which his ORtg made up for his DRtg. This year he has not been a good shooter at any level based on any number you could use. He's shooting 27% from three in conference and 29% from two.SFCityBear said:Here are Jalen Cone's 3 career point shooting statistics, from sports-reference.com:bluesaxe said:The math is clear that they are equivalent, but good three point shooters are in the high 30"s into the 40's. Cone isn't a good three point shooter. He's a streaky three point shooter who seems to think he's better than he is. By shooting bad shots he's taking away the team's opportunities for better shots. It's more indicative of a player's efficiency to look at effective field goal percentage, which combines the two. His is quite low, 8th on the team.eastcoastcal said:
good point on the kick outs but I dont think 33% is equal to 50% from 2..? You're very knowledgable hoop so I don't want to directly contradict you but 33% has to be significantly lower than 50% from the field, no? It would place him as the 220th best team 3 point% average out of 351 eligible teams, to give you an idea of where he would stand when compared to a large sample size. Meaning 220 teams as a whole shoot better from 3 than him, and he's supposed to be our best shooter. And his FG% is second worst on the team, only ahead of Askew (not a shooter) and Monty (doesn't play). He really hasn't shot the ball well imo.
Cal is 48th in three pointers attempted, shooting 34% as a TEAM and ranks only 161st in three point percentage. Cone has taken 167 of the team's 448 three point attempts and is the seventh best by percentage on the team. That's something the coaches should be correcting.
2020 Virginia Tech 64/140 45.7%
2021 Virginia Tech 37/106 34.9% (15 games)
2022 North Arizona 93/264 35.2%
2023 North Arizona 96/240 40.0%
Totals 290/750 38.7%
So Cone, by your very definition, was a good three point shooter for his first 4 seasons, ranging from mid 30s to mid 40s, and averaging overall in the high 30s. Usually players who were good shooters for years, don't become poor shooters overnight.
Poor shooters at Cal were guys like Jaylen Brown, Tyrone Wallace, and Sam Singer. All on the same team! How did they win any games?
Brown in 2016: 29.4%.
Ty Wallace, 4 seasons: 29.2%
Sam Singer, 4 seasons: 27.5%
Cone's 3 point shooting at Cal has been below average at 31.7%. The question we are all trying to answer is what happened, either over the summer or at Cal or both, to cause the dropoff in his shooting percentage. Is it the higher level of competition in the PAC12? Cone's best season shooting the 3 ball was his first season at Virginia Tech, where he shot 45.7%. I'd wager the ACC defenses are at least as tough at the PAC12 defenses that Cone is facing now.
Is the problem Cone selfishly forcing up a lot of off balance or unwise shots? Is he a ball hog?
Is the problem that Cone's teammates are not getting him the ball at the right time an place to have the best chance for him to get a clear shot or a lane to one?
Is the coach coaching the best system to take advantage of Cone's strengths?
How is Cone practicing? Does Madsen put Cone up against Cal's best defenders? Does he put Cone up against much taller defenders?
I read where Cone gets to the gym early in the morning, and is perspiring profusely by the time his teammates arrive. Is he working too hard? Not hard enough?
Could it be a matter of a loss of a little confidence?
Something has gone wrong for Cone from last season where he shot threes at 40%, to this season where he is shooting them at 32%. All good three point shooters have slumps, and most work their way out of them.
But Cone is a good three point shooter, and his college career prior to this season proves it. He will either shake this boogie man, or he won't.
