OT: Team USA almost loses to South Sudan?!?

9,003 Views | 105 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by 01Bear
Big C
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Does our Olympic Men's Basketball team have a nickname? (Dream Team, Redeem Team, etc.) I'm sure wags on the Internet are coming up with possibilities as I write this...

Where do they go from here? Okay, this wasn't a "real" game, but still... it wasn't an "exhibition", either. I could picture this being just a minor bump in the road and a wake-up call at the same time. USA takes home the Gold!

OTOH, this could be a sign of impending trouble. Honestly, even before yesterday's game, something just didn't feel right to me, as I would look at the roster. Maybe too old? To overconfident? Pieces that may not fit together? Not motivated enough in the NBA off-season?

We shall see. But long gone are the days where we had a huge talents/skills advantage, though we still should be fairly heavy favorites. I hope we don't lose to a country that I had to be reminded was a country. South Sudan, that's a "Directional Country"!

Thoughts?
Eastern Oregon Bear
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I suspect it's a result of Team USA not taking the game very seriously and being flat, while South Sudan is likely better than the experts thought and played above their talent level, though I didn't see the game. South Sudan has sent some players to US colleges and others to play internationally. Their 7' 2" center is going to play for Duke, so I expect we'll all get a good look at him this winter. Still, Team USA should have won by 30 points. Since we'll be playing South Sudan again soon in Group C, it's probably a good thing that after being embarrassed, Team USA isn't likely to overlook them again.
93Bear
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I saw Kuony Kuony is on the roster. Did he get any minutes?
wraptor347
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Not according to the box score

https://www.usab.com/gamecast/1875
calumnus
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Big C said:


Does our Olympic Men's Basketball team have a nickname? (Dream Team, Redeem Team, etc.) I'm sure wags on the Internet are coming up with possibilities as I write this...

Where do they go from here? Okay, this wasn't a "real" game, but still... it wasn't an "exhibition", either. I could picture this being just a minor bump in the road and a wake-up call at the same time. USA takes home the Gold!

OTOH, this could be a sign of impending trouble. Honestly, even before yesterday's game, something just didn't feel right to me, as I would look at the roster. Maybe too old? To overconfident? Pieces that may not fit together? Not motivated enough in the NBA off-season?

We shall see. But long gone are the days where we had a huge talents/skills advantage, though we still should be fairly heavy favorites. I hope we don't lose to a country that I had to be reminded was a country. South Sudan, that's a "Directional Country"!

Thoughts?


Shouldn't have snubbed Jaylen Brown.
calumnus
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wraptor347 said:

Not according to the box score

https://www.usab.com/gamecast/1875


Yeah, on the team but DNP
01Bear
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calumnus said:

Big C said:


Does our Olympic Men's Basketball team have a nickname? (Dream Team, Redeem Team, etc.) I'm sure wags on the Internet are coming up with possibilities as I write this...

Where do they go from here? Okay, this wasn't a "real" game, but still... it wasn't an "exhibition", either. I could picture this being just a minor bump in the road and a wake-up call at the same time. USA takes home the Gold!

OTOH, this could be a sign of impending trouble. Honestly, even before yesterday's game, something just didn't feel right to me, as I would look at the roster. Maybe too old? To overconfident? Pieces that may not fit together? Not motivated enough in the NBA off-season?

We shall see. But long gone are the days where we had a huge talents/skills advantage, though we still should be fairly heavy favorites. I hope we don't lose to a country that I had to be reminded was a country. South Sudan, that's a "Directional Country"!

Thoughts?


Shouldn't have snubbed Jaylen Brown.

Amen!

This team lacks "dogs." The Redeem Team won a gold medal it was with Kobe on the team. Kobe was a dog. Jaylen Brown's got some dog in him. But the guys on Team USA (except maybe Jrue Holliday) lack that "dog."

Dogs are guys who will do anything to win. They're the enforcers and the guys who will dive for balls and do the dirty work. Cal had its own dog with Jorge Gutierrez, back in the Monty era.

This year's Team USA has too many entitled athletes. They behave as if the rest of the world should just forfeit and ask for their autographs. They behave like superstars instead of like hungry scrappers. They're Rocky in _Rocky_III_ before Clubber Lang beats his arse and takes his title. Jaylen Brown (and arguably Jrue Holliday) are more like Rocky in LA training to "The Eye of the Tiger." In order to win gold, Team USA needs more guys like Jaylen Brown and fewer entitled superstars.
dimitrig
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The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


01Bear
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dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
concernedparent
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01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.
01Bear
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concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
SBGold
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01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point
Big C
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I see the score was 101-100. How do we give up 100 points to a team like that... did anybody see the game? Maybe we just took them lightly? Or maybe our roster needs a little more time together? (There is something to that actually, to play good defense.) If they are just waiting for the last 2-3 games to "turn it on", they're gonna maybe be surprised to not even get that far.
01Bear
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SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
01Bear
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Big C said:


I see the score was 101-100. How do we give up 100 points to a team like that... did anybody see the game? Maybe we just took them lightly? Or maybe our roster needs a little more time together? (There is something to that actually, to play good defense.) If they are just waiting for the last 2-3 games to "turn it on", they're gonna maybe be surprised to not even get that far.

Because Team USA is comprised of entitled superstars who play as individuals instead of an unified team hungry to win gold.

The main difference between the NBA game and international game play (a la the Olympics and World Cup) is that in the NBA, individual superstars are expected to (and do) take over the game in the clutch/championship rounds whereas in international competition, (the other countries') players play like cohesive teams. For the best countries in international play, it helps that their national teams have regularly played together or came up in the same system.

The US, OTOH, throws together individual superstars at the last minute and expects them to coalesce into a team. That worked with the Dream Team because all of the players had super high basketball IQ and were both humble enough and able to figure out how to play together. (It also definitely helped that Chuck Daly had the college team beat the Dream Team in a practice game.) Unfortunately, Team USA has not been made up of such iconic basketball greats since then. As a result, the teams default into playing individual superstar play. But unless you have dogs, like Kobe, who will literally run through his own (NBA) teammate and close friend in order to win, the superstars tend to play too soft because they expect their superior individual talent to be enough for a victory.
Big C
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01Bear said:

Big C said:


I see the score was 101-100. How do we give up 100 points to a team like that... did anybody see the game? Maybe we just took them lightly? Or maybe our roster needs a little more time together? (There is something to that actually, to play good defense.) If they are just waiting for the last 2-3 games to "turn it on", they're gonna maybe be surprised to not even get that far.

Because Team USA is comprised of entitled superstars who play as individuals instead of an unified team hungry to win gold.

The main difference between the NBA game and international game play (a la the Olympics and World Cup) is that in the NBA, individual superstars are expected to (and do) take over the game in the clutch/championship rounds whereas in international competition, (the other countries') players play like cohesive teams. For the best countries in international play, it helps that their national teams have regularly played together or came up in the same system.

The US, OTOH, throws together individual superstars at the last minute and expects them to coalesce into a team. That worked with the Dream Team because all of the players had super high basketball IQ and were both humble enough and able to figure out how to play together. (It also definitely helped that Chuck Daly had the college team beat the Dream Team in a practice game.) Unfortunately, Team USA has not been made up of such iconic basketball greats since then. As a result, the teams default into playing individual superstar play. But unless you have dogs, like Kobe, who will literally run through his own (NBA) teammate and close friend in order to win, the superstars tend to play too soft because they expect their superior individual talent to be enough for a victory.

There is something to that, I'm sure. However, doesn't the coach (Steve Kerr, in this case, who is super smart) pretty much decide who is on the team? And isn't his main goal to win the gold? And aren't the two biggest stars on the team, LeBron and Steph, unselfish players who want to win above all else?

My hot take right this second is that LeBron, Steph and KD think they are good enough to defend these other teams' players, but they are not.
01Bear
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Big C said:

01Bear said:

Big C said:


I see the score was 101-100. How do we give up 100 points to a team like that... did anybody see the game? Maybe we just took them lightly? Or maybe our roster needs a little more time together? (There is something to that actually, to play good defense.) If they are just waiting for the last 2-3 games to "turn it on", they're gonna maybe be surprised to not even get that far.

Because Team USA is comprised of entitled superstars who play as individuals instead of an unified team hungry to win gold.

The main difference between the NBA game and international game play (a la the Olympics and World Cup) is that in the NBA, individual superstars are expected to (and do) take over the game in the clutch/championship rounds whereas in international competition, (the other countries') players play like cohesive teams. For the best countries in international play, it helps that their national teams have regularly played together or came up in the same system.

The US, OTOH, throws together individual superstars at the last minute and expects them to coalesce into a team. That worked with the Dream Team because all of the players had super high basketball IQ and were both humble enough and able to figure out how to play together. (It also definitely helped that Chuck Daly had the college team beat the Dream Team in a practice game.) Unfortunately, Team USA has not been made up of such iconic basketball greats since then. As a result, the teams default into playing individual superstar play. But unless you have dogs, like Kobe, who will literally run through his own (NBA) teammate and close friend in order to win, the superstars tend to play too soft because they expect their superior individual talent to be enough for a victory.

There is something to that, I'm sure. However, doesn't the coach (Steve Kerr, in this case, who is super smart) pretty much decide who is on the team? And isn't his main goal to win the gold? And aren't the two biggest stars on the team, LeBron and Steph, unselfish players who want to win above all else?

My hot take right this second is that LeBron, Steph and KD think they are good enough to defend these other teams' players, but they are not.

No knock on Steve Kerr, but I doubt he was allowed to pick who he wanted on the team. He may be the coach, but he's not likely the one making the calls as to team membership. Otherwise, he probably would've picked Nick's friend and former Cal teammate over Derrick White to replace Kawhi Leonard.

As for Lebron, no, his main goal isn't to win gold. His main goal is and has always been what's best for him and the Lebron brand. If winning happened to coincide with it, great. But he's not focused on winning at all costs. Otherwise, Bronny would not be on the Lakers.

That said, Lebron realizes he's also known as "Lebronze" for good reason. While he and his apologists will argue he's not responsible for the 2004 team having to settle for bronze, the fact of the matter remains he was on that bronze medal team. Neither Kobe nor Jordan ever won anything other than gold in the Olympics. Lebron knows he can not be considered the "GOAT" so long as he's Lebronze. To that end, he's going to do his darndest to win gold. However, he needs to be (perceived as) the best player on the team. He can't risk getting Tatumed by Jaylen Brown, whose intensity level and will to win is greater than his own.

As for Steph, he may want to win. But he's a limited player. It's not just that he's older and starting to slow down, but he's always been a liability on defense (dating back to the days when he shared a backcourt with Monta Ellis). Steph is basically just there to put up (and make) shots, especially those behind the arc. But unless he gets incredibly hot and dialed into the zone, he won't be able to take over a game and dominate.

More importantly, though, you're still looking at the game all wrong. You're thinking like Team USA. You're thinking that so long as the US has superstar players whose combined talent is greater than that of their opponents, they'll win. But five individuals pulling in separate directions is easier to overcome than five people pulling in the same direction. For all its star power, Team USA is still putting out five individuals pulling in five different directions instead of five teammates pulling in the same direction.

To date, Team USA has managed to squeak by their opponents in exhibition games. But whether it can continue to eke out wins when the games matter is unclear. Unless it can learn to play together, I have little confidence Team USA will win gold in these Olympic games.
sluggo
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This is how I see it. I missed South Sudan but saw Germany and all the other warm up games.

I think the team is poorly coached. But US national teams are always poorly coached, so I think it is the structure where playing time is based on sponsorships and relationships and giving major minutes to players who have status. This makes the games harder than they have to be because other teams just play to win. More specifically:
1. The world has caught up and the team should win by 10-20 if they were playing only to win rather than 40-50.
2. We can debate who the best player is but in every game the US has 8 or 9 of the top 10 players. That should be enough. In the warmup games LeBron James, amazingly at his age, appeared to be the best player in the tournament. Anthony Davis appeared to be the best 5, an absolute defensive beast who can switch everything and block most stuff.
3. With the short 3 point line and tacit approval of moving screens, it is absolutely crucial that all players can switch screens. Joel Embiid cannot. He is a disaster, forcing the defense into 4 v 5. He should be buried on the bench behind Davis and Adebayo. But I think Kerr's hands are tied.
4. I am frustrated that US teams never switch their defense. Mix in a zone and a trap. The players are smart enough.
5. I don't understand the lack of rebounding. It seems like arrogance to me.
6. What is a good shot on your NBA team where you are a star is often not a good shot on an all-star team. Embiid should never face up, Curry should never go 1-v-1, and Tatum should not take midrange shots.
7. None of the other teams have good interior defense. They should force the ball inside repeatedly to LBJ, Tatum, and Davis. Plus that would foul out players on teams with little depth.
Big C
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Well, I pretty much agree with what sluggo and 01 wrote, which was kind of my thesis in starting the thread: I don't see this team bringing home the Gold.

Some questions:

How are the players actually selected?

Isn't the USA coming home without the Gold something of a motivator for these guys to want to play winning basketball? Sometimes avoiding embarrassment can be a strong motivator.

And related to that last one, does anybody think Stever Kerr right now is wishing he hadn't taken this gig?

Anybody have any burning roster switches they'd like to make? ("I wish we could replace _____ with _____!")
01Bear
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Big C said:


Well, I pretty much agree with what sluggo and 01 wrote, which was kind of my thesis in starting the thread: I don't see this team bringing home the Gold.

Some questions:

How are the players actually selected?

Isn't the USA coming home without the Gold something of a motivator for these guys to want to play winning basketball? Sometimes avoiding embarrassment can be a strong motivator.

And related to that last one, does anybody think Stever Kerr right now is wishing he hadn't taken this gig?

Anybody have any burning roster switches they'd like to make? ("I wish we could replace _____ with _____!")

"The team was selected by USA Basketball Men's National Team managing director Grant Hill and approved by the USA Basketball Board of Directors." (See, https://www.usab.com/news/2024/04/2024-usa-basketball-mens-national-team-announced.)

At a minimum, Jaylen Brown should have been selected in place of Derrick White (or Tyrese Halliburton, or the injured Kevin Durant).

Chet Holmgreen would've been a good choice as an additional big, since the US doesn't have enough size inside.

Alex Caruso could've been added in place of Tyrese Halliburton. Sure you lose Halliburton's offensive firepower, but in Caruso you get an excellent perimeter defender and team player. It would actually end up being a case of addition by subtraction since he wouldn't need the ball in his hands to be effective.

As for the team being motivated by the fear of not winning gold, I'm not sure this is the right group to have that worry. Most of these guys grew up in the "everyone gets a trophy" era. Worse, they lack the killer instinct and hyper competitive nature of their forebears. They partner up with one another instead of seeking to dominate one another in the NBA. That mentality will carry over to international play where they are okay with losing.

That said, Lebron James seems to be worried about not winning gold. But as I mentioned in a previous post, that's likely more to his fear of being unable to shake the "Lebronze" label. He wants to be considered the GOAT; he knows that will never happen so long as he's Lebronze. While he might argue that he didn't win gold in 2004 because he was too young and a rookie on a team of veterans to whom he deferred; he no longer has that excuse with this team. He also knows he doesn't get credit for winning 2008 and 2012 because those teams were really following Kobe's lead. This team is following his lead. He knows how it plays will be considered a reflection of his greatness, or lack thereof.

As for Steve Kerr, I doubt he really wanted to be the coach. He probably accepted the position because he considered it an honor to represent his nation. He couldn't in good conscience turn down his country when it sought his aid. He'll put forth his best effort to help this team win gold, but at the end of the day, he probably doesn't really want to be riding herd on this group of underachieving prima donnas.
HoopDreams
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Play Holiday more minutes
sluggo
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Big C said:


Well, I pretty much agree with what sluggo and 01 wrote, which was kind of my thesis in starting the thread: I don't see this team bringing home the Gold.

Some questions:

How are the players actually selected?

Isn't the USA coming home without the Gold something of a motivator for these guys to want to play winning basketball? Sometimes avoiding embarrassment can be a strong motivator.

And related to that last one, does anybody think Stever Kerr right now is wishing he hadn't taken this gig?

Anybody have any burning roster switches they'd like to make? ("I wish we could replace _____ with _____!")
I don't agree with what 01 wrote. I think the players are doing their best. They seem to like each other. I don't think they are selfish or don't care about winning. I think they care a lot.

I think there are challenges that come with a team of stars. But if they had fewer stars, they would have less talent, so I am not sure that would improve things.

I wish Kerr had a first team that he played 30 minutes (that would include Anthony Davis). I wish he had the standing to criticize shot selection. But neither is possible, so it will be a struggle. I think it is 50/50 that they bring home the gold. I think it could be 90/10, but all these numbers are in my head anyway.

The player I think they are missing is Kyrie Irving. When things break down he is the guy who I want to have the ball. He was very angry when he was not chosen, and I like his fire. Jaylen Brown would be a great switchable defender, but his shooting is erratic. In the World Cup in 2023 they had Jaren Jackson Jr., who is much better at the international game than Embiid. Kawhi Leonard would have been nice, but he got injured.
SBGold
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01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
A multiple time MVP and his play does not stand out much. That's crazy to me. And Arvydas had nowhere near the offensive game and skill that Joker has
sluggo
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01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
Heehee. Last year Jokic shot 63% on 2s. The year before he shot 68% on 2s. There has never been a player like him. The best historical comparison is Kevin McHale, who shot 60% twice, but at much lower volume and with Bird and Parrish to distract. At 280 pounds, Jokic would physically destroy all but the biggest players from previous eras, and they would have no chance with how he would move them around the floor. He is not a great defender, but offensively he is ridiculous.

Back to bemoaning the Olympic team.
sluggo
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Kerr takes the Mark Fox approach and criticizes effort. More effort is always better, but I prefer fixing strategic flaws.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/40638009/steve-kerr-team-usa-raise-intensity-paris-olympics
HearstMining
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Kerr has absolutely no leverage over his guys. Whether the team wins or loses, it won't affect players' NBA salaries or reputations with their fans. It might affect Kerr's legacy as a coach, but only peripherally. I'm sure he is appealing to their professionalism and pride, but that only does so much. From a purely transactional standpoint, the worst Kerr could do is piss off one or two players who would then eliminate the Warriors as potential landing spots if/when they become free agents.
oski003
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HearstMining said:

Kerr has absolutely no leverage over his guys. Whether the team wins or loses, it won't affect players' NBA salaries or reputations with their fans. It might affect Kerr's legacy as a coach, but only peripherally. I'm sure he is appealing to their professionalism and pride, but that only does so much. From a purely transactional standpoint, the worst Kerr could do is piss off one or two players who would then eliminate the Warriors as potential landing spots if/when they become free agents.


Hopefully, he is a good enough coach to actually coach these players without pissing them off. Maybe he just lucked out with Jerry West, Kerr, Steph, Durant, Wiggins, Green etc...
HearstMining
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I didn't mean to imply that Kerr was a poor coach, but I think his style (as with most coaches, especially today) depends on building successful relationships with the players. In the Olympics, he only has a very short time-frame to do that. Hopefully, Steph can help sell his approach to the players and accelerate the process so they start playing with a little more purpose and coordination.
concernedparent
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01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
Embiid. Probably should say he's Cameroonian.

Jokic is unquestionably the best player in the world right now. He won 3 of the last 4 MVPs and should've won in 4 times in a row. The things he does on offense have never been seen before from the center position. He creates a good look (for his team or himself) just about every single possession.

Whichever old head said Sabonis was better is full of ***** Did they watch Sabonis play daily in Lithuania? How do you compare someone who played their prime in Europe when it wasn't half as good as it is now, to someone currently dominating the NBA?
01Bear
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sluggo said:

01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
Heehee. Last year Jokic shot 63% on 2s. The year before he shot 68% on 2s. There has never been a player like him. The best historical comparison is Kevin McHale, who shot 60% twice, but at much lower volume and with Bird and Parrish to distract. At 280 pounds, Jokic would physically destroy all but the biggest players from previous eras, and they would have no chance with how he would move them around the floor. He is not a great defender, but offensively he is ridiculous.

Back to bemoaning the Olympic team.


There's no interior defense any more. Not only are the defenders now playing zone but there are also no real big men anymore. If Jokic played in the 80s and 90s, he's get beaten up and killed. Moses Malone was a beast, as were Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, and Kareem. Patrick Ewing played bigger than his size and Hakeem would've broken Jokic's ankles twice over in every game. Of course, Shaq would've just destroyed Jokic with his size, strength, and athleticism.

I get that recency bias is strong, but you guys are forgetting the era of dominant bigs who battled down low every game. Jokic is soft as a baby's turd and slower than a dying tortoise in molasses. He'd be embarrassed by the great bigs from the 80s and 90s.
01Bear
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concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
Embiid. Probably should say he's Cameroonian.

Jokic is unquestionably the best player in the world right now. He won 3 of the last 4 MVPs and should've won in 4 times in a row. The things he does on offense have never been seen before from the center position. He creates a good look (for his team or himself) just about every single possession.

Whichever old head said Sabonis was better is full of ***** Did they watch Sabonis play daily in Lithuania? How do you compare someone who played their prime in Europe when it wasn't half as good as it is now, to someone currently dominating the NBA?

Like I said in an earlier post, winning the NBA MVP doesn't mean someone is the best player. Steve Nash won a couple MVPs and Kobe Bryant only won one. No one could reasonably argue Nash was the better player. Nash was great. He could penetrate and dish. He could hit the three and make free throws. He could see the game a couple moves in advance. But he couldn't play defense. Defense is half the game; if someone can't play D, he can't be the best basketball player. Kobe was voted to countless All-NBA and All-NBA defensive teams. He was clearly better than Nash. Yet, Nash won his MVPs in Kobe's prime years.

As for Jokic, he's still half a player. His offense is good, but his defense is crap. He really didn't deserve to win those NBA MVP awards since he can't defend.

sluggo
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01Bear said:

sluggo said:

01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
Heehee. Last year Jokic shot 63% on 2s. The year before he shot 68% on 2s. There has never been a player like him. The best historical comparison is Kevin McHale, who shot 60% twice, but at much lower volume and with Bird and Parrish to distract. At 280 pounds, Jokic would physically destroy all but the biggest players from previous eras, and they would have no chance with how he would move them around the floor. He is not a great defender, but offensively he is ridiculous.

Back to bemoaning the Olympic team.


There's no interior defense any more. Not only are the defenders now playing zone but there are also no real big men anymore. If Jokic played in the 80s and 90s, he's get beaten up and killed. Moses Malone was a beast, as were Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, and Kareem. Patrick Ewing played bigger than his size and Hakeem would've broken Jokic's ankles twice over in every game. Of course, Shaq would've just destroyed Jokic with his size, strength, and athleticism.

I get that recency bias is strong, but you guys are forgetting the era of dominant bigs who battled down low every game. Jokic is soft as a baby's turd and slower than a dying tortoise in molasses. He'd be embarrassed by the great bigs from the 80s and 90s.
Not knowing me, how would you know that I have recency bias? I have seen every good player for the last 40 years. The players these days are not taller but they are stronger and more athletic and more skilled. What is the opposite of recency bias that you show, maybe nostalgia? Charles Oakley was terrible and would literally not make an NBA team now. I went to see Bill Laimbeer in the early years and his teammate John Long made fun of him for being so clumsy. He got better, but he is a perfect example of how bad the players were then. Sure Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, the best transcend eras. But the average skill has gone way up. As has the average athleticism.

Your argument should be that coaches in the 80s and 90s were so stupid that they did not use the 3 point shot, thus making the games played in a phone booth so scoring inside was more difficult. But maybe it was because so few players could shoot, I don't know. Phil Jackson was against the corner 3 because it was difficult for the shooter to make it back on defense. Embarrassing. Coaching is much better now. It is uniformly better now.

Your nostalgia goes with the players being entitled now. Well, they were then, too. Magic got his coach fired. Pippen refused to get in at the end of a playoff game because a play was not drawn up for him. Bird tried in the regular season when he was in the mood, which was not that often. The players try harder on a midseason Wednesday then they used to. It is not even close.

On Sunday you will see how great Jokic is against multiple big, athletic USA interior players. Or you can choose not to see.
dimitrig
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sluggo said:

01Bear said:

sluggo said:

01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
Heehee. Last year Jokic shot 63% on 2s. The year before he shot 68% on 2s. There has never been a player like him. The best historical comparison is Kevin McHale, who shot 60% twice, but at much lower volume and with Bird and Parrish to distract. At 280 pounds, Jokic would physically destroy all but the biggest players from previous eras, and they would have no chance with how he would move them around the floor. He is not a great defender, but offensively he is ridiculous.

Back to bemoaning the Olympic team.


There's no interior defense any more. Not only are the defenders now playing zone but there are also no real big men anymore. If Jokic played in the 80s and 90s, he's get beaten up and killed. Moses Malone was a beast, as were Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, and Kareem. Patrick Ewing played bigger than his size and Hakeem would've broken Jokic's ankles twice over in every game. Of course, Shaq would've just destroyed Jokic with his size, strength, and athleticism.

I get that recency bias is strong, but you guys are forgetting the era of dominant bigs who battled down low every game. Jokic is soft as a baby's turd and slower than a dying tortoise in molasses. He'd be embarrassed by the great bigs from the 80s and 90s.
Not knowing me, how would you know that I have recency bias? I have seen every good player for the last 40 years. The players these days are not taller but they are stronger and more athletic and more skilled. What is the opposite of recency bias that you show, maybe nostalgia? Charles Oakley was terrible and would literally not make an NBA team now. I went to see Bill Laimbeer in the early years and his teammate John Long made fun of him for being so clumsy. He got better, but he is a perfect example of how bad the players were then. Sure Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, the best transcend eras. But the average skill has gone way up. As has the average athleticism.

Your argument should be that coaches in the 80s and 90s were so stupid that they did not use the 3 point shot, thus making the games played in a phone booth so scoring inside was more difficult. But maybe it was because so few players could shoot, I don't know. Phil Jackson was against the corner 3 because it was difficult for the shooter to make it back on defense. Embarrassing. Coaching is much better now. It is uniformly better now.

Your nostalgia goes with the players being entitled now. Well, they were then, too. Magic got his coach fired. Pippen refused to get in at the end of a playoff game because a play was not drawn up for him. Bird tried in the regular season when he was in the mood, which was not that often. The players try harder on a midseason Wednesday then they used to. It is not even close.

On Sunday you will see how great Jokic is against multiple big, athletic USA interior players. Or you can choose not to see.


Agree with most of this, but Charles Oakley absolutely would make an NBA roster.

I get what you're saying. Christian Wood is a much better player and managed only 15 minutes per game for the Lakers last year.

But Oakley pulled down 35 rebounds in a game. That's 1 more than Dennis Rodman ever did in the same era.

Not saying he'd be an All Star. He only made the team once even then. But to think he'd not even find a spot on the bench of the worst NBA team? No way.


01Bear
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sluggo said:

01Bear said:

sluggo said:

01Bear said:

SBGold said:

01Bear said:

concernedparent said:

01Bear said:

dimitrig said:


The reality is the best NBA players are no longer American.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Giannis Antetokounmpo...

All of them finished ahead of Jayson Tatum and Jalen Brunson in MVP voting.

The US is still the deepest roster by far, but in basketball one or two players can take you a long way.


While MVP can serve as a proxy for best player, they're not exactly the same. For instance, Steve Nash won two MVPs in Kobe's prime years. There's no way anyone could seriously argue Nash was a better player than Kobe. Kobe just happened to be on some (really) bad Lakers teams.*

That said, I take your point. The best basketball players are no longer American-born. The rest of the world is quickly catching up to the US in basketball talent. In a couple years, the best basketball player will likely be a Frenchman, Victor Wembanyama.


*On a side note, I went to law school with a guy who had been a teammate of Smush Parker, one of Kobe's point guards, when they played in Europe.
The best basketball player in the world is already foreign (Serbian). The second, third, and fourth are Greek, French, and Slovenian.

I'm not sure if Jokic is the best player in the world. He's definitely good, but the best? I'm not convinced. Giannis is definitely great. I could see him as the best. Who's the Frenchman you listed? Wemby? Luka is a great offensive player but a sieve on defense. He can't be the best player if he can't play D.
You need to watch a couple Jokic games then. I've seen 3-4 times the past 2 years in person (Kings ticket holder). Nuggets lost 3 of the 4 games I saw but Jokic was special in every one. Wemby will be great but he is not close to Jokic at this point

I've watched Jokic play; he doesn't really stand out all that much. Other big men have been equally skilled. More importantly, they've been more dominant. Jokic is benefiting from playing against lower competition, which makes him look better. If he had to play against the dominant bigs from the 80s and 90s, he'd get exposed.

That said, I do recognize that Jokic is a good passer. But again, it's nothing that hasn't been seen before. Magic and Larry regularly completed passes that people bow ooh and aah over when Jokic makes them. About the only passes Jokic has made that I did not see Magic and Larry make is full court alley-oops. But that's more the result of the latters' teammates not being in a position to finish the oop so soon after their team got the ball.

From what some old basketball heads have said, Arvydas Sabonis was also better in his prime than Jokic is now. I can't speak to that as I never saw him play except in his twilight years in the NBA. By then, according to those who watched his earlier years, he'd already become a shell of his former self.
Heehee. Last year Jokic shot 63% on 2s. The year before he shot 68% on 2s. There has never been a player like him. The best historical comparison is Kevin McHale, who shot 60% twice, but at much lower volume and with Bird and Parrish to distract. At 280 pounds, Jokic would physically destroy all but the biggest players from previous eras, and they would have no chance with how he would move them around the floor. He is not a great defender, but offensively he is ridiculous.

Back to bemoaning the Olympic team.


There's no interior defense any more. Not only are the defenders now playing zone but there are also no real big men anymore. If Jokic played in the 80s and 90s, he's get beaten up and killed. Moses Malone was a beast, as were Charles Oakley, Bill Laimbeer, and Kareem. Patrick Ewing played bigger than his size and Hakeem would've broken Jokic's ankles twice over in every game. Of course, Shaq would've just destroyed Jokic with his size, strength, and athleticism.

I get that recency bias is strong, but you guys are forgetting the era of dominant bigs who battled down low every game. Jokic is soft as a baby's turd and slower than a dying tortoise in molasses. He'd be embarrassed by the great bigs from the 80s and 90s.
Not knowing me, how would you know that I have recency bias? I have seen every good player for the last 40 years. The players these days are not taller but they are stronger and more athletic and more skilled. What is the opposite of recency bias that you show, maybe nostalgia? Charles Oakley was terrible and would literally not make an NBA team now. I went to see Bill Laimbeer in the early years and his teammate John Long made fun of him for being so clumsy. He got better, but he is a perfect example of how bad the players were then. Sure Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, the best transcend eras. But the average skill has gone way up. As has the average athleticism.

Your argument should be that coaches in the 80s and 90s were so stupid that they did not use the 3 point shot, thus making the games played in a phone booth so scoring inside was more difficult. But maybe it was because so few players could shoot, I don't know. Phil Jackson was against the corner 3 because it was difficult for the shooter to make it back on defense. Embarrassing. Coaching is much better now. It is uniformly better now.

Your nostalgia goes with the players being entitled now. Well, they were then, too. Magic got his coach fired. Pippen refused to get in at the end of a playoff game because a play was not drawn up for him. Bird tried in the regular season when he was in the mood, which was not that often. The players try harder on a midseason Wednesday then they used to. It is not even close.

On Sunday you will see how great Jokic is against multiple big, athletic USA interior players. Or you can choose not to see.


Oakley wouldn't make a roster today only because the rules have changed. Oakley was never inserted into a lineup for his athleticism but because he was an enforcer. If Jokic played in the age of enforcers in the NBA, Oakley would've been killed him. (To be fair, the same would probably hold true for most of today's NBA players.) If Jokic were getting beat up in the post by Moses Malone or Charles Oakley every night, he would put up significantly lower offensive numbers. Since your claims that Jokic's offensive numbers make him the best, you'd have to reevaluate. Frankly, Jokic would be considered merely a good player in the 80s and 90s because his offensive output would be severely curtailed.
OneKeg
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As a data point, the US did manage to squeak by Jokic and Serbia 110-84 a couple hours ago in their group stage round.

(I do agree that this team has issues and very easily may not bring home gold).
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