I guess no post season

4,585 Views | 62 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Johnfox
bearsandgiants
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Jeff82 said:

One other consideration offered here. The NCAA "style," personified by Monty, involves a lot of preparation specific to the opponent you are playing. That works in the regular season, but not really in the NCAA tournament, where the opponents are better, and you don't have the same time to prepare for them. IMHO, that's why Monty didn't have a lot of tournament success over his career. You avoid that by adopting an NBA approach, and sticking to it, assuming you have the talent. Case in point, Cuonzo Martin lost to Hawaii as a four seed, because he lost two players to injury close to the game, and didn't have the depth to make up for it. If that's what Madsen is attempting, it could work, but he'll have to recruit very well, and keep the guys he recruits healthy. Playing that style without Stojakovich and Omot is a big ask.


You have to get to the tournament to see if this works though. We are nowhere near that level. Maybe…maybe next year.
barsad
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BearlyCareAnymore said:

Why the hell would a record of 14-17 overall and 7-13 in conference ever be what we need to focus on? (other than you don't think we can do better). That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress. 14 wins is not a goal.


It's the only goal at this point. The greatest threat to this team is the potential loss of the few good players we have (Wilkerson, Andrej, Omot and JOJ) to the portal because they see no future. If that happens we can expect the Madsen era to get worse. The difference between 14 wins and losing out the rest of the season (or something close to that) is crucial to recruitment AND retention, which is the only way we get better. I don't know how anyone who supports the team could say 14 wins means nothing. Psychological wins do matter.
BearlyCareAnymore said:

Every win we have is against a team that is at our level or below.


Nope. NC State (KenPom 99) and Virginia (110) are both ranked higher than Cal (130).

BearlyCareAnymore said:

This season is not a calamity by any stretch, but you damn us with low expectations.
I don't see that there has been "Madsen bashing". At most "Madsen questioning", which is healthy.


Really, it's my low expectations, that's the reason it didn't work out this year? If anything I had really high expectations like everyone else (.500-plus), I'm just saying that for where we stand TODAY, we need to make sure the season remains a "meh, some progress, maybe better next year" season and not a "NIL zapped us, we're cooked and will be last in the ACC next year" season.
There absolutely has been Madsen bashing all over this Forum, call it whatever you want, scapegoating, finger pointing, many people love to place blame.
oskidunker
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Go 5-5 over the last 10 and end up 17-15 and possible post season play. Would take anything at this point.
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
RedlessWardrobe
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BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Bobodeluxe
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RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
barsad
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oskidunker said:

Go 5-5 over the last 10 and end up 17-15 and possible post season play. Would take anything at this point.

I see 8 regular season games, you're saying we go two games deep into the ACC tournament? We'll be playing a top 5 seed most likely.
I like your optimism, but I'm also a realist and beyond Notre Dame and BC I don't see your other three wins. A 5-5 record puts us at 17-16.
RedlessWardrobe
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Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Civil Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Pretty sure the "progress" marker was meant for the Mad Dog. Yeah, the roster is flipped over, but it's not like he lost everyone to graduation.
sycasey
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Breaking in an entirely new group of players may well become the norm in the NIL era. Coaches will need to be able to handle it.
RedlessWardrobe
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Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Pretty sure the "progress" marker was meant for the Mad Dog. Yeah, the roster is flipped over, but it's not like he lost everyone to graduation.
Yes, it was meant for MM, but whether he lost the players due to "graduation" or not, they still left. And with the current NIL situation it's hard to hold him accountable for that.
BeachedBear
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sycasey said:

Breaking in an entirely new group of players may well become the norm in the NIL era. Coaches will need to be able to handle it.
If there was an easy and obvious solution, then we would have a couple hundred teams ranked in the top 20

Calbear73
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Big C said:

Calfan92 said:

The goal at this point should be to find someone rich to get Cal a coach who can attract top talent. We're not even on the radar now. He ain't the guy.

With respect, I feel like your assessment of Madsen (especially with regards to recruiting) is overly negative:

1. The program was in total shambles when he took over. He has made significant inroads, in terms of the roster.
2. A newer coach usually needs a period of time to establish himself with targeted recruits, in targeted areas/programs.
3. It's as much about the NIL nowadays as anything... and our hoops NIL could be better.


Indeed, there are legitimate Madsen questions right now about X's and O's and player development, but I am reasonably optimistic about Madsen's future at Cal. Note that I am a long-time season ticket holder who has followed the program closely for 40+ years (though I know that doesn't automatically make me right on this... just my take).
People are entirely too negative about Madsen & his staff on this board and your expectations for an immediate turnaround and the creation of a team that will compete in the top half of the ACC in year two is just too much to expect and frankly I'm tired of hearing people who know very little about coaching stating some of the obvious issues with this team. Madsen see's these issues as well. He owns issues and works with his staff to improve. Those of you who can't see the improvement in this year's team are simply blind or just plain cranky.

And anyone who doesn't think coaches improve over time does not know what they are talking about. Coaching is about having a vision for what you want to see on the court and by adapting your instruction to help your team meet those expectations. That happens over time and that's why it's so important to have a foundational group of players who grow and improve each year. Even John Wooden acknowledged he was a much better coach at the end of his career than he was in the early stages of his career.

Frankly, what Madsen & his staff have accomplished in just two years is more than what I expected considering he took over a team that was left for dead & went 3 - 29 and had NO returning players. He basically has recruited two new teams through the portal & this year persuaded 11 players to come to Cal and found an underrated 3-star freshman guard (Wilkinson) who has played way above expectations in his first year. BC's post above pretty much lays out the game-plan as I see it. Additionally, the season is not over yet & if we can find a way to win 4 of our last 8 games we could finish the year at 16-15 and perhaps make it to the NIT. But even if they don't, Cal will likely make it to the ACC tournament & finish just below the top half of the ACC which is a huge improvement.

This year is the foundation year as we hope to have as many as 9 players returning, assuming alums contribute to the Cal Collective, & two 4-star guards coming from HS. If Madsen can retain the best of our players and get the pieces we need through the portal ie (center, big point guard and a scoring forward) I can see Cal finishing in the top half of the league next year.

Once Cal begins to win consistently, Madsen has the name recognition and personality to draw even better players to Cal. To my mind, it will likely be in year 5 when we can finish in the top 5 of the ACC. One thing I'm sure of is he is headed in the right direction regardless of his perceived deficiencies. Additionally, those of you who think Cal can compete with Stanfurd at this time are on drugs. Stanfurd is already where the Bears want to be and they have three 6'10" - 7' players one of whom is going to play in the NBA and a very strong point guard & great depth.

To my eyes the future of men's basketball at Cal is looking damn good. The key will be Cal having the NIL funds needed to keep our young stars and to attract the ones we need to fill holes through the portal.

Go Bears!
BeachedBear
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Calbear73 said:

Big C said:

Calfan92 said:

The goal at this point should be to find someone rich to get Cal a coach who can attract top talent. We're not even on the radar now. He ain't the guy.

With respect, I feel like your assessment of Madsen (especially with regards to recruiting) is overly negative:

1. The program was in total shambles when he took over. He has made significant inroads, in terms of the roster.
2. A newer coach usually needs a period of time to establish himself with targeted recruits, in targeted areas/programs.
3. It's as much about the NIL nowadays as anything... and our hoops NIL could be better.


Indeed, there are legitimate Madsen questions right now about X's and O's and player development, but I am reasonably optimistic about Madsen's future at Cal. Note that I am a long-time season ticket holder who has followed the program closely for 40+ years (though I know that doesn't automatically make me right on this... just my take).
People are entirely too negative about Madsen & his staff on this board and your expectations for an immediate turnaround and the creation of a team that will compete in the top half of the ACC in year two is just too much to expect and frankly I'm tired of hearing people who know very little about coaching stating some of the obvious issues with this team. Madsen see's these issues as well. He owns issues and works with his staff to improve. Those of you who can't see the improvement in this year's team are simply blind or just plain cranky.

And anyone who doesn't think coaches improve over time does not know what they are talking about. Coaching is about having a vision for what you want to see on the court and by adapting your instruction to help your team meet those expectations. That happens over time and that's why it's so important to have a foundational group of players who grow and improve each year. Even John Wooden acknowledged he was a much better coach at the end of his career than he was in the early stages of his career.

Frankly, what Madsen & his staff have accomplished in just two years is more than what I expected considering he took over a team that was left for dead & went 3 - 29 and had NO returning players. He basically has recruited two new teams through the portal & this year persuaded 11 players to come to Cal and found an underrated 3-star freshman guard (Wilkinson) who has played way above expectations in his first year. BC's post above pretty much lays out the game-plan as I see it. Additionally, the season is not over yet & if we can find a way to win 4 of our last 8 games we could finish the year at 16-15 and perhaps make it to the NIT. But even if they don't, Cal will likely make it to the ACC tournament & finish just below the top half of the ACC which is a huge improvement.

This year is the foundation year as we hope to have as many as 9 players returning, assuming alums contribute to the Cal Collective, & two 4-star guards coming from HS. If Madsen can retain the best of our players and get the pieces we need through the portal ie (center, big point guard and a scoring forward) I can see Cal finishing in the top half of the league next year.

Once Cal begins to win consistently, Madsen has the name recognition and personality to draw even better players to Cal. To my mind, it will likely be in year 5 when we can finish in the top 5 of the ACC. One thing I'm sure of is he is headed in the right direction regardless of his perceived deficiencies. Additionally, those of you who think Cal can compete with Stanfurd at this time are on drugs. Stanfurd is already where the Bears want to be and they have three 6'10" - 7' players one of whom is going to play in the NBA and a very strong point guard & great depth.

To my eyes the future of men's basketball at Cal is looking damn good. The key will be Cal having the NIL funds needed to keep our young stars and to attract the ones we need to fill holes through the portal.

Go Bears!
This entire post reminds me of my mother blaming ME for something my brother did "YOU KIDS!"

There are a few posters who could be called negative. They post loud and they post often, It seems like they represent all PEOPLE - or EVERYONE. They don't.

Such is the nature of social media. We seem to lose touch with reality. if you take the time to sift through the sources, I'm pretty sure you will see that support on this board for Madsen is probably more positive than it was during the first half of of the Cuonzo era. IMHO, primarily because of comparison bias (following Wyfox vs Monty).

As for your expectations and such in your post. I think you are spot on. I am VERY glad Madsen is our coach. I expect him to improve. And as you put it in bold above - future looking good - is something we haven't had in almost a decade. I'm giving your post the equivalent of 70% of PEOPLE.
Johnfox
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Here's the rest of the schedule

Vs Wake Forest
@ Duke
@ Georgia Tech
@ Stanford
Vs SMU
Vs Boston College
@ Louisville
@ Notre Dame

I have us winning against Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Stanford, SMU, Boston College, and Notre Dame

The Stanford, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech games can go either way, but I'm confident we can pull it out
smh
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Quote:

> To my eyes the future of men's basketball at Cal is looking damn good. The key will be Cal having the NIL funds needed to keep our young stars and to attract the ones we need to fill holes through the portal.
Go Bears!
agree, but said another way, in the age of portals coaches are forced to (mostly) re-invent their team every year
# fingers crossed
Civil Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Pretty sure the "progress" marker was meant for the Mad Dog. Yeah, the roster is flipped over, but it's not like he lost everyone to graduation.
Yes, it was meant for MM, but whether he lost the players due to "graduation" or not, they still left. And with the current NIL situation it's hard to hold him accountable for that.
Not suggesting MM isn't progressing, but the coach is absolutely accountable for retaining players, just as much as he is responsible for recruiting new ones. It's tough to progress if you are rebuilding each year.
ManBearLion123
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Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Pretty sure the "progress" marker was meant for the Mad Dog. Yeah, the roster is flipped over, but it's not like he lost everyone to graduation.
Yes, it was meant for MM, but whether he lost the players due to "graduation" or not, they still left. And with the current NIL situation it's hard to hold him accountable for that.
Not suggesting MM isn't progressing, but the coach is absolutely accountable for retaining players, just as much as he is responsible for recruiting new ones. It's tough to progress if you are rebuilding each year.
I give MM more of a pass for the players that left last offseason as they were players he inherited, not ones he recruited.

MM definitely needs to retain our core (which is entirely comprised of his commits/recruits) going into next season to be competitive moving forward.
Johnfox
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Such a luxury having Max Raynaud on your team
concernedparent
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ManBearLion123 said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Bobodeluxe said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BCA said: "That is a poor season by any definition and it is frankly a worse season than last year. I don't know how you could argue that is progress." "I'm sorry, but a team that made progress this year expects to beat Cornell."

Really bizarre to apply the word "progress" to a situation when this year's squad is an entirely different group of players.
Why do you hate laundry?
Normally I don't. But when the entire squad is different, using the word "progress" doesn't quite fit right. If Celestine and Brown and Newell were still here the term would make more sense.
Pretty sure the "progress" marker was meant for the Mad Dog. Yeah, the roster is flipped over, but it's not like he lost everyone to graduation.
Yes, it was meant for MM, but whether he lost the players due to "graduation" or not, they still left. And with the current NIL situation it's hard to hold him accountable for that.
Not suggesting MM isn't progressing, but the coach is absolutely accountable for retaining players, just as much as he is responsible for recruiting new ones. It's tough to progress if you are rebuilding each year.
I give MM more of a pass for the players that left last offseason as they were players he inherited, not ones he recruited.

MM definitely needs to retain our core (which is entirely comprised of his commits/recruits) going into next season to be competitive moving forward.
The departures were no big losses anyway. Only Celestine would've made this team better.
eastcoastcal
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Johnfox said:

Here's the rest of the schedule

Vs Wake Forest
@ Duke
@ Georgia Tech
@ Stanford
Vs SMU
Vs Boston College
@ Louisville
@ Notre Dame

I have us winning against Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Stanford, SMU, Boston College, and Notre Dame

The Stanford, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech games can go either way, but I'm confident we can pull it out
That would be awesome! That's an NIT bubble team
barsad
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Johnfox said:

Here's the rest of the schedule

Vs Wake Forest
@ Duke
@ Georgia Tech
@ Stanford
Vs SMU
Vs Boston College
@ Louisville
@ Notre Dame

I have us winning against Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Stanford, SMU, Boston College, and Notre Dame

The Stanford, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech games can go either way, but I'm confident we can pull it out

Not sure how SMU is on that wins list… 45th on KenPom, already beat us once, 18-5, probably going to the tournament. But it's the three other teams (Stanford-Wake-Ga Tech) ranked lower than SMU that could go either way?

I liked what I saw against NC State, they have the potential to have a good shooting game once in a while, but there is no bubble in our future this year.
chinobear
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Boston College is a must win at home, and Georgia Tech/Notre Dame are very winnable on the road. The rest of the schedule is tough, but I can see a win against Wake or Stanford.

That would finish the season at 16-15, our first winning record since 2017. Frankly, I'd be happy with that.
barsad
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Agreed I think .500 or above would be a big step forward for the program… I get that people are impatient with the slow pace of progress, but .500 (and frankly even 14 wins for me) would be the light at the end of the tunnel.
sycasey
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IF we can finish 16-15 then yes that would maintain a positive trajectory and be reason to allow Madsen more running room.
HKBear97!
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Johnfox said:

Here's the rest of the schedule

Vs Wake Forest
@ Duke
@ Georgia Tech
@ Stanford
Vs SMU
Vs Boston College
@ Louisville
@ Notre Dame

I have us winning against Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Stanford, SMU, Boston College, and Notre Dame

The Stanford, Wake Forest, and Georgia Tech games can go either way, but I'm confident we can pull it out


Guess it might be time to revise this projection. Can we get to 14?
oskidunker
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Who we gonna beat? Ghostbusters?
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
eastcoastcal
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GT, BC, and ND look like the likeliest. Hope we can get 3 wins so we can show a positive trajectory.
Johnfox
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Here comes the negabears. Let's have some fun
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