stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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It not easy playing most games in a foreign country.

It is conference advantages. Most kids going to those schools are not going pro. Ucsd is the most selective and thus gains an advantage over there rivals. Well coached and senior heavy. Go tritons!!

socaltownie said:

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It is conference advantages. Most kids going to those schools are not going pro. Ucsd is the most selective and thus gains an advantage over there rivals. Well coached and senior heavy. Go tritons!!

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Kinda like how Cal treats Rugby compared to all the "club" teams out there.....

socaltownie said:

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It is conference advantages. Most kids going to those schools are not going pro. Ucsd is the most selective and thus gains an advantage over there rivals. Well coached and senior heavy. Go tritons!!

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So they usurped UCSB and UCI on that count? Interesting idea. Could be Cal instead?

Point being they are a good team in an absolute sense. They beat 24-4 Utah State in Utah.

True that they are well coached and senior heavy. Recruit internationally (best player Aniwaniwa Tait-Jones is originally from New Zealand but played his first two years at UH-Hilo).

HKBear97! said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Agree with this. Cal needs to accept that they don't belong in the big leagues.

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This would be a huge step down for the program… you think recruiting is tough now, imagine just going after local kids and power conference leftovers, slim pickings on talent.
If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions (wasn't that the "big leagues?"), then we have to at least try in the ACC. Too early to say we can't succeed, give it a couple more years.

barsad said:

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HKBear97! said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Agree with this. Cal needs to accept that they don't belong in the big leagues.

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This would be a huge step down for the program… you think recruiting is tough now, imagine just going after local kids and power conference leftovers, slim pickings on talent.
If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions (wasn't that the "big leagues?"), then we have to at least try in the ACC. Too early to say we can't succeed, give it a couple more years.

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That I think misses the level of competition and how those schools recruit. Again, the offer is much more aligned with the university - come to school here, an elite institution you might not been able to gain admittance (and interesting for UCSD - foreign students that might not have gotten the visa), save 400K by playing and then get a highly valued degree.

Now that DOES NOT WORK if you are competing in the P4 where the recruits are much more interested in playing basketball professionally. But the number of Big West kids that currently play in the NBA is exceedingly small. Ditto oversees ball.

Now the good news (except for the travel) is that most of the schools in the ACC are "selective" in respect to admissions. Some are highly selective (Cal Furd, Duke UNC Gtech). It is a far more even playing field than when recruiting against essentially an open admission schools like ASU, UA, Oregon.

socaltownie said:

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barsad said:

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HKBear97! said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Agree with this. Cal needs to accept that they don't belong in the big leagues.

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This would be a huge step down for the program… you think recruiting is tough now, imagine just going after local kids and power conference leftovers, slim pickings on talent.
If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions (wasn't that the "big leagues?"), then we have to at least try in the ACC. Too early to say we can't succeed, give it a couple more years.

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That I think misses the level of competition and how those schools recruit. Again, the offer is much more aligned with the university - come to school here, an elite institution you might not been able to gain admittance (and interesting for UCSD - foreign students that might not have gotten the visa), save 400K by playing and then get a highly valued degree.

Now that DOES NOT WORK if you are competing in the P4 where the recruits are much more interested in playing basketball professionally. But the number of Big West kids that currently play in the NBA is exceedingly small. Ditto oversees ball.

Now the good news (except for the travel) is that most of the schools in the ACC are "selective" in respect to admissions. Some are highly selective (Cal Furd, Duke UNC Gtech). It is a far more even playing field than when recruiting against essentially an open admission schools like ASU, UA, Oregon.

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The point is that UCSD has a team that is good on an absolute level, #34 in Ken Pom. That means they most likely would be winning games and be headed to the NCAA Tournament even if they were playing in the ACC.

stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Well, I'd rather include Santa Clara, USF, and St Mary's than UCR - and why not Fresno St, SD State, and San Jose St? Hey, we're being hypothetical here!

HearstMining said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Well, I'd rather include Santa Clara, USF, and St Mary's than UCR - and why not Fresno St, SD State, and San Jose St? Hey, we're being hypothetical here!

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I'm looking at comparable academics.

calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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barsad said:

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HKBear97! said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

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Agree with this. Cal needs to accept that they don't belong in the big leagues.

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This would be a huge step down for the program… you think recruiting is tough now, imagine just going after local kids and power conference leftovers, slim pickings on talent.
If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions (wasn't that the "big leagues?"), then we have to at least try in the ACC. Too early to say we can't succeed, give it a couple more years.

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That I think misses the level of competition and how those schools recruit. Again, the offer is much more aligned with the university - come to school here, an elite institution you might not been able to gain admittance (and interesting for UCSD - foreign students that might not have gotten the visa), save 400K by playing and then get a highly valued degree.

Now that DOES NOT WORK if you are competing in the P4 where the recruits are much more interested in playing basketball professionally. But the number of Big West kids that currently play in the NBA is exceedingly small. Ditto oversees ball.

Now the good news (except for the travel) is that most of the schools in the ACC are "selective" in respect to admissions. Some are highly selective (Cal Furd, Duke UNC Gtech). It is a far more even playing field than when recruiting against essentially an open admission schools like ASU, UA, Oregon.

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The point is that UCSD has a team that is good on an absolute level, #34 in Ken Pom. That means they most likely would be winning games and be headed to the NCAA Tournament even if they were playing in the ACC.

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Have you seen them play? I have. Several times.

They are nice little well coached senior ladden team. UCSD in the ACC would have exactly the same problem Cal has - competing against kids that have their eye on turning basketball skills into a post-graduate career rather than leveraging an athletic scholarship to gain admission to med school.

Hard pass.

6956bear said:

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But the program needs to improve attendance significantly. Haas was once called the "Haas of pain". Now it is nearly dead and just half full on a good day.

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"Haas of Small Ouchies?"
I agree, but it's a chicken and egg thing, you can't get attendance before success. Cal can always do better on marketing (would a free shirt for season ticket holders that's not an S or M size kill them?)
But I am not one of those who believes (lookin' at you, Shocky) that a simple firing and new hire in marketing or a bunch of free tickets for students is going to pack the house. As a marketing pro myself I know it's a lot more complicated. Times have changed, my friends, and all the old farts in here (including myself) who think that students have the same lifestyle and social lives as they did 40 years ago are kidding themselves. It's not about the sports so much for the current cohorts, they're too busy tapping, swiping and liking.

barsad said:

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It's not about the sports so much for the current cohorts, they're too busy tapping, swiping and liking.

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And studying. I got a frosh right now in college of chemistry. They work them REALLY hard. Moreover, Cal AD feels strangely detached by trying to reach this group - so much of there focus isn't there and they miss out just a TON on low hang fruit at the various dorms/dinning halls from reports from SCT Jr.

barsad said:

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6956bear said:

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But the program needs to improve attendance significantly. Haas was once called the "Haas of pain". Now it is nearly dead and just half full on a good day.

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"Haas of Small Ouchies?"
I agree, but it's a chicken and egg thing, you can't get attendance before success. Cal can always do better on marketing (would a free shirt for season ticket holders that's not an S or M size kill them?)
But I am not one of those who believes (lookin' at you, Shocky) that a simple firing and new hire in marketing or a bunch of free tickets for students is going to pack the house. As a marketing pro myself I know it's a lot more complicated. Times have changed, my friends, and all the old farts in here (including myself) who think that students have the same lifestyle and social lives as they did 40 years ago are kidding themselves. It's not about the sports so much for the current cohorts, they're too busy tapping, swiping and liking.

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I never thought I would defend Shocky (sorry Bill), but this time he is right. JK (And ME) are personally not interested in crowds at basketball games and have even articulated that many times.

Whether they feel that way in person is up to them. BUT THAT IS THEIR JOB! The fact that they would let that slip to a (FORMER) low level donor like me just means they are incompetent AND stupid.

I don't know many donors, but most of those refuse to put any more $$$ or attend games until those 2 are gone.

So, yes - marketing is much more complicated and different cohorts are focused on different things. But those two are toxic and need to be out as step ZERO.

socaltownie said:

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calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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barsad said:

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HKBear97! said:

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stu said:

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I'd still rather be in a California conference with UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO, and Stanford than in the ACC.

---

Agree with this. Cal needs to accept that they don't belong in the big leagues.

---

This would be a huge step down for the program… you think recruiting is tough now, imagine just going after local kids and power conference leftovers, slim pickings on talent.
If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions (wasn't that the "big leagues?"), then we have to at least try in the ACC. Too early to say we can't succeed, give it a couple more years.

---

That I think misses the level of competition and how those schools recruit. Again, the offer is much more aligned with the university - come to school here, an elite institution you might not been able to gain admittance (and interesting for UCSD - foreign students that might not have gotten the visa), save 400K by playing and then get a highly valued degree.

Now that DOES NOT WORK if you are competing in the P4 where the recruits are much more interested in playing basketball professionally. But the number of Big West kids that currently play in the NBA is exceedingly small. Ditto oversees ball.

Now the good news (except for the travel) is that most of the schools in the ACC are "selective" in respect to admissions. Some are highly selective (Cal Furd, Duke UNC Gtech). It is a far more even playing field than when recruiting against essentially an open admission schools like ASU, UA, Oregon.

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The point is that UCSD has a team that is good on an absolute level, #34 in Ken Pom. That means they most likely would be winning games and be headed to the NCAA Tournament even if they were playing in the ACC.

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Have you seen them play? I have. Several times.

They are nice little well coached senior ladden team. UCSD in the ACC would have exactly the same problem Cal has - competing against kids that have their eye on turning basketball skills into a post-graduate career rather than leveraging an athletic scholarship to gain admission to med school.

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I have not, but my brother was the starting PG there and is good friends with the HC, so he attends a lot of games and tells me about them. However, my post was based more on where Ken Pom and Sagarin have them ranked. They are a team that went to Utah and beat the best team the first place team in the MWC. With the transfer portal, more and more teams are "senior laden" as we were last year. Their best player is a transfer from UH-Hilo.

You may be right that they are overrated by Ken Pom and Sagarin. The transitive property does not always work. The NCAA Tournament will be a test for sure, but there is a history of "well coached and senior laden" teams doing well there too.

However I definitely disagree with anyone who thinks UCSD is more advantaged than Cal in basketball.

UCSD is going to be the cinderella team this year

And the Tritons were royally screwed by the refs, calling two highly questionable fouls on Tait-Jones (UCSD's best player and this year's Big West POY), causing him to foul out after playing only 25 minutes. They could have easily won this game against a team that's loaded with talent, including two 7-footers who are bound for the NBA.

"If we were good enough for the Conference of Champions"

If you consider the two prior coaches each helming us to a school record of 16 consecutive losses "good enough."

barsad said:

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6956bear said:

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But the program needs to improve attendance significantly. Haas was once called the "Haas of pain". Now it is nearly dead and just half full on a good day.

---

"Haas of Small Ouchies?"
I agree, but it's a chicken and egg thing, you can't get attendance before success. Cal can always do better on marketing (would a free shirt for season ticket holders that's not an S or M size kill them?)
But I am not one of those who believes (lookin' at you, Shocky) that a simple firing and new hire in marketing or a bunch of free tickets for students is going to pack the house. As a marketing pro myself I know it's a lot more complicated. Times have changed, my friends, and all the old farts in here (including myself) who think that students have the same lifestyle and social lives as they did 40 years ago are kidding themselves. It's not about the sports so much for the current cohorts, they're too busy tapping, swiping and liking.

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Not only do you not get attendance before success, there is a significant time-lag. Attendance doesn't bounce back quickly from multi-year debacles like the Holmoecaust and WyFox eras. Despite Tedford having winning seasons in 2002 (Boller's great senior year, >1000 yard RB Joe Igber) and 2003 (Rodgers' first year, > 1000 yard RB Echimandu), Cal's attendance didn't improve appreciably until his third season in 2004. At Cal, you probably need a couple of exciting players and definitely need multiple winning seasons to drive the attendance upwards.

Watching Celestine right now light it up for Baylor in an exciting tournament game. I think money is important to players, but saying you were a part of March Madness (lifetime bragging rights) is worth a lot, too, and that's the one thing Cal can't tell a recruit with a straight face ("You WILL be at the Dance in March 2026.") Major handicap.