Open 3s / Shooting / Shooting Coach

2,051 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 6 days ago by BeachedBear
eastcoastcal
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Unfortunate loss today despite a great comeback to tie it. One thing that boggles my mind is how bad we are at shooting open 3s. We might be hitting them at a 35% clip or something in that ballpark! It's awful... And yes there are definitely other issues with the team- but wanted to make a post on our shooting woes and what to do about them.

Do you think a shooting coach could solve our shooting issues or is it a pure talent issue? Both? If a shooting coach could improve the team, who should we hire?
bearsandgiants
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It's talent.
socaltownie
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Talent/coaching/I don't know why but a real problem.

Last night missed several open thress that were part of our offensive sets. It really is a glaring problem with our rotation right now because teams are helping so much in the middle (taking away a ton of drive to the basket offense and then overplaying on the permiter (forcing steals and disrupting.)

But more than anything it is defense on this team. AGAIN we saw the Bears inability to defend the high ball screen against. RS was the biggest offender last night but it is more a function of their team rather than our Blackshere did a better job fighting through them but we remain so short in the back court....so when he is out there we get abused by guards that can post him up.
Johnfox
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Agreed. Madsen better get some shooters this off season
sluggo
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eastcoastcal said:

Unfortunate loss today despite a great comeback to tie it. One thing that boggles my mind is how bad we are at shooting open 3s. We might be hitting them at a 35% clip or something in that ballpark! It's awful... And yes there are definitely other issues with the team- but wanted to make a post on our shooting woes and what to do about them.

Do you think a shooting coach could solve our shooting issues or is it a pure talent issue? Both? If a shooting coach could improve the team, who should we hire?
There is a long history in the NBA of shooting coaches significantly improving long range shooting. For many years the Spurs were able to do this. But there is a less of a history in college. I am not sure why. Maybe talent, maybe time practicing, maybe the quality of the coaches.

Theo Robertson had a beautiful shot. I was hoping when he was hired that he would help. But I assume he is no longer viable.

bearchamp
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Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.
oskidunker
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bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
socaltownie
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oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.
oskidunker
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socaltownie said:

oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.


Well he better win one more game or he might not. Maybe you are enjoying this. I am not.
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
calumnus
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socaltownie said:

oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.


More to the point, Knowlton ALREADY gave Madsen a contract extension until 2031 after he went 13-19 in his first year.

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-signs-contract-extension#:~:text=The%20extension%2C%20added%20to%20his,Knowlton%20said%20in%20a%20statement.

SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

socaltownie said:

oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.


More to the point, Knowlton ALREADY gave Madsen a contract extension until 2031 after he went 13-19 in his first year.

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-signs-contract-extension#:~:text=The%20extension%2C%20added%20to%20his,Knowlton%20said%20in%20a%20statement.


2031? ...............Ouch.
oskidunker
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SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

socaltownie said:

oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.


More to the point, Knowlton ALREADY gave Madsen a contract extension until 2031 after he went 13-19 in his first year.

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-signs-contract-extension#:~:text=The%20extension%2C%20added%20to%20his,Knowlton%20said%20in%20a%20statement.


2031? ...............Ouch.


Why?
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
calumnus
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oskidunker said:

SFCityBear said:

calumnus said:

socaltownie said:

oskidunker said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.


Madsen wont be here long if next year is justas bad. Too many basic fundamental things wrong.
As Joe Kappmonce said, " There are-not enough wins in the bank"
LOL. Actually ROFLOL. You have been missing the bar set by Coach Wilcox. Trust me, Mark is getting an extension as long as he makes the ACC tournnament.


More to the point, Knowlton ALREADY gave Madsen a contract extension until 2031 after he went 13-19 in his first year.

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-signs-contract-extension#:~:text=The%20extension%2C%20added%20to%20his,Knowlton%20said%20in%20a%20statement.


2031? ...............Ouch.


Why?


Same reason Knowlton gave Wilcox his 6 year extension: as a reward for possibly "turning down his alma mater." That, and Knowlton is incredibly incompetent, stealing $1.3 million a year from Cal.
TedfordTheGreat
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Coaches aside, when are we firing knowlton? What is his performance evaluated on? I'd assume every single athletic program and their standing right?

Football is laughable
Men's Basketball is a dumpster fire
Women's basketball showing some life
Swimming is always good
Baseball had a good year 2 years ago?
Men's soccer?

If you look at the sum, he should be fired, tomorrow, for results alone
stu
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calumnus said:

Same reason Knowlton gave Wilcox his 6 year extension: as a reward for possibly "turning down his alma mater." That, and Knowlton is incredibly incompetent, stealing $1.3 million a year from Cal.
That's not on Knowlton, that's on Cal.
Big C
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TedfordTheGreat said:

Coaches aside, when are we firing knowlton? What is his performance evaluated on? I'd assume every single athletic program and their standing right?

Football is laughable
Men's Basketball is a dumpster fire
Women's basketball showing some life
Swimming is always good
Baseball had a good year 2 years ago?
Men's soccer?

If you look at the sum, he should be fired, tomorrow, for results alone

It's a question of his contract: He still has, what, 4-5 years left at one million+ per year? Similar deal to Wilcox. Otherwise, they both would be gone.
barsad
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Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
RedlessWardrobe
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barsad said:

Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
To your point, Madsen is here for a long run. Posters keep popping up here suggesting that he needs to go, that he has to be in the big tourney by next year, and other stuff. That stuff is just a waste of space on this forum. Hope moving forward that talk goes away - because there's nothing to talk about. If someone has criticism on him that's fine, but just forget the "fire Madsen" stuff, it ain't happening.
BeachedBear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

barsad said:

Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
To your point, Madsen is here for a long run. Posters keep popping up here suggesting that he needs to go, that he has to be in the big tourney by next year, and other stuff. That stuff is just a waste of space on this forum. Hope moving forward that talk goes away - because there's nothing to talk about. If someone has criticism on him that's fine, but just forget the "fire Madsen" stuff, it ain't happening.
Dear Redless, everything you say may be true, but...

Let me introduce you to the 21st century and college fan boards. They exist for posters to POP UP and make suggestions (often unrealistic). The entire purpose is to have a forum to waste space (and have fun). We are NOT ACTUALLY SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS HERE. Think of it like being in a bar with your friends and letting off some steam.

Now, if we were in the Chancellors office or in JK's face. I'd be right next to you, cheering you on.

Because you are right. Madsen isn't going anywhere unless someone entices him away.
RedlessWardrobe
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BeachedBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

barsad said:

Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
To your point, Madsen is here for a long run. Posters keep popping up here suggesting that he needs to go, that he has to be in the big tourney by next year, and other stuff. That stuff is just a waste of space on this forum. Hope moving forward that talk goes away - because there's nothing to talk about. If someone has criticism on him that's fine, but just forget the "fire Madsen" stuff, it ain't happening.
Dear Redless, everything you say may be true, but...

Let me introduce you to the 21st century and college fan boards. They exist for posters to POP UP and make suggestions (often unrealistic). The entire purpose is to have a forum to waste space (and have fun). We are NOT ACTUALLY SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS HERE. Think of it like being in a bar with your friends and letting off some steam.

Now, if we were in the Chancellors office or in JK's face. I'd be right next to you, cheering you on.

Because you are right. Madsen isn't going anywhere unless someone entices him away.
Good call BB, you make perfect sense. And I will make an effort to have a few drinks when I get on here in the future. It will make things a lot easier! Of course if I do that, I may not be as tactful as usual!
oskidunker
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Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
calumnus
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oskidunker said:

Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.


Exactly, except Wyking recruited a talented but very young team that was improving even that year and almost certainly would have improved in subsequent years. Also like Wyking, Madsen is not starting his best five by playing a guard who should be deep on the bench.
SFCityBear
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oskidunker said:

Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.
Wyking's bigger problem was his defense, especially his full court press. Abominable. Come to think of it, Madsen's biggest problem has been his defense.
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

oskidunker said:

Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.


Exactly, except Wyking recruited a talented but very young team that was improving even that year and almost certainly would have improved in subsequent years. Also like Wyking, Madsen is not starting his best five by playing a guard who should be deep on the bench.
There is not much certainty about predictions for what a Cal team will do in its following year. Or any college team, especially with the injuries that Cal has had over the last several years, more injuries than most teams, I'd guess. NIL and the Portal make it near impossible to predict what a team will be like in the following year.

As to the guard who is playing, he at least has some point guard skills, but he does call his own number too often. Who else is a point guard? Tucker, but he hasn't played well consistently. Wilkerson is not a point guard, he's a scorer, who nearly always gets his points. This is two straight seasons where Madsen failed to recruit a good point guard. Even Fox was able to recruit a couple, but they were very injury prone. We need better defense at the point guard position at least.
HearstMining
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oskidunker said:

Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and Rod Benson has said essentially the same thing, but when I watch a pro team like the Warriors, it's not strictly one-on-one play. There is motion away from the ball to free up a player ("brush" screens, etc) and the ball-handlers see those open players and make the pass. I rarely see any of this from Cal and I don't think it's just lack of athletic ability.

Has Madsen ever explicitly stated what his offensive strategy is?
barsad
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RedlessWardrobe said:

BeachedBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

barsad said:

Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
To your point, Madsen is here for a long run. Posters keep popping up here suggesting that he needs to go, that he has to be in the big tourney by next year, and other stuff. That stuff is just a waste of space on this forum. Hope moving forward that talk goes away - because there's nothing to talk about. If someone has criticism on him that's fine, but just forget the "fire Madsen" stuff, it ain't happening.
Dear Redless, everything you say may be true, but...

Let me introduce you to the 21st century and college fan boards. They exist for posters to POP UP and make suggestions (often unrealistic). The entire purpose is to have a forum to waste space (and have fun). We are NOT ACTUALLY SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS HERE. Think of it like being in a bar with your friends and letting off some steam.

Now, if we were in the Chancellors office or in JK's face. I'd be right next to you, cheering you on.

Because you are right. Madsen isn't going anywhere unless someone entices him away.
Good call BB, you make perfect sense. And I will make an effort to have a few drinks when I get on here in the future. It will make things a lot easier! Of course if I do that, I may not be as tactful as usual!

I'm seeing both sides, don't let BB bag on your Spock side, Red. It's good to just shoot the s-t and let off steam, but within the bounds of real basketball talk instead of "flames-R-Us". If we knew what we were talking about we wouldn't be tapping away on our keyboards, we'd be on the opposite side of the court from Madsen.
I'll take a pint of Rational Red followed by a 2nd pint of Beached Bear Bock.
RedlessWardrobe
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barsad said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

BeachedBear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

barsad said:

Madsen is here to stay, no matter what grumpy fans think. At $2.6 mil a year with a contract to 2030 (don't think it's 2031), it's simply too expensive for Cal to buy him out. So the "fire Madsen" crowd will have to put in a cork in it for a while.
Knowlton on the other hand at $1 mil…. Yes, probably worth the buyout, he's been that bad, and we need some new leadership.
To your point, Madsen is here for a long run. Posters keep popping up here suggesting that he needs to go, that he has to be in the big tourney by next year, and other stuff. That stuff is just a waste of space on this forum. Hope moving forward that talk goes away - because there's nothing to talk about. If someone has criticism on him that's fine, but just forget the "fire Madsen" stuff, it ain't happening.
Dear Redless, everything you say may be true, but...

Let me introduce you to the 21st century and college fan boards. They exist for posters to POP UP and make suggestions (often unrealistic). The entire purpose is to have a forum to waste space (and have fun). We are NOT ACTUALLY SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS HERE. Think of it like being in a bar with your friends and letting off some steam.

Now, if we were in the Chancellors office or in JK's face. I'd be right next to you, cheering you on.

Because you are right. Madsen isn't going anywhere unless someone entices him away.
Good call BB, you make perfect sense. And I will make an effort to have a few drinks when I get on here in the future. It will make things a lot easier! Of course if I do that, I may not be as tactful as usual!

I'm seeing both sides, don't let BB bag on your Spock side, Red. It's good to just shoot the s-t and let off steam, but within the bounds of real basketball talk instead of "flames-R-Us". If we knew what we were talking about we wouldn't be tapping away on our keyboards, we'd be on the opposite side of the court from Madsen.
I'll take a pint of Rational Red followed by a 2nd pint of Beached Bear Bock.
Be careful. Keep talking about alcoholic beverages and one of the forum cops may force you to move your posts to the OT section!
BearlyCareAnymore
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bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.
So in the last week or so, people on this board have offered the advice that we need an offensive coach, a defensive coach, a shooting coach and a passing coach. I don't happen to agree with the assertions that these are the things we need, but I'm confounded why people who think our coaching is so substandard in every facet that we need to bring in specialists seem unwilling to ask what the head coach is doing.
barsad
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Pretty sure the "passing coach" was a joke, though I would love for someone to prove me wrong and find someone who's getting paid for passing.
BCA, if it's not specialists, what's your solution to the substandard coaching problem?
Big C
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BearlyCareAnymore said:

bearchamp said:

Why not go all in and get a "passing" coach as well: one is certainly needed. Maybe special tutor for AS.
So in the last week or so, people on this board have offered the advice that we need an offensive coach, a defensive coach, a shooting coach and a passing coach. I don't happen to agree with the assertions that these are the things we need, but I'm confounded why people who think our coaching is so substandard in every facet that we need to bring in specialists seem unwilling to ask what the head coach is doing.

Glass is half full: we don't need a positivity coach!
BearlyCareAnymore
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barsad said:

Pretty sure the "passing coach" was a joke, though I would love for someone to prove me wrong and find someone who's getting paid for passing.
BCA, if it's not specialists, what's your solution to the substandard coaching problem?
I don't think we necessarily have a substandard coaching problem. I think the jury is still out on that. I think we have:

1. A recruiting problem. We plain and simple don't have shooters on this team. It is very hard to take guys that weren't shooters in the first place and coach them up to be by the end of the year to be shooters. Do some guys significantly improve with coaching? Yes. They are rarer than people think. You can't take a bunch of 25%-30% three point shooters and expect a shooting coach is going to yield 3 or 4 40% three point shooters. Beyond the shooting, our recruiting has been meh despite the plaudits which seemed to be unwarranted at the time of signing and proved to be so on the court. Unlike last year, we have had some success with a couple young prospects that we should expect to return, but the benefit has just not impacted game day at this point.

2. A scheme problem, which is different from substandard coaching. IMO, and I hope I'm wrong, Madsen has chosen entirely the wrong scheme on both sides of the floor for the circumstances of the Cal program. Those are choices that he can change and I hope he does because the scheme is not putting this team at its best for where it is right now. I assume he has thought he can recruit into the schemes, but I don't see that happening without interim steps that bring out the best in the personnel that he has right now. I think the jury is out on the quality of his coaching within this scheme or another one, but it is very possible that he is fine at teaching all of the elements of successful basketball and if he changed the scheme a lot of the problems that look like issues with fundamentals would go away.


Very hypothetically speaking, if I agreed that we had a substandard coaching problem, there is an obvious solution to that. It means the head coach needs to be replaced or you should not expect significant improvement. Basketball is not like football where the head coach is more of an administrator and relies on assistants to do the day to day coaching. Basketball coaches coach. That is kind of my point here. It seems odd to me that people who think the coaching is substandard don't lay that on the feet of the coach. Wyking didn't get that deference. Fox didn't. I don't think Cuonzo even did. Or, now that I think of it, Braun or Bozeman or Campanelli. Madsen is paid a lot. Certainly picking assistants that complement his skill set is important, but if that means offense and defense and shooting, then I would wonder what his skill set actually is. (again, hypothetical because I don't agree that is the issue).
BeachedBear
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HearstMining said:

oskidunker said:

Hes doing the same thing wyking did. Trying to run a pro offense without players good enough.
I'm not disagreeing with you, and Rod Benson has said essentially the same thing, but when I watch a pro team like the Warriors, it's not strictly one-on-one play. There is motion away from the ball to free up a player ("brush" screens, etc) and the ball-handlers see those open players and make the pass. I rarely see any of this from Cal and I don't think it's just lack of athletic ability.

Has Madsen ever explicitly stated what his offensive strategy is?
We already know the secret sauce to a dominating college offense. And we've known it for years....

Two Baskets and a Ball. Just Play.


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