We have to recruit better .

1,877 Views | 28 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Growler91
socaltownie
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Sorry for the rant. DEEPLY frustrated today after it was announced that Byrd is returning to San Diego State for his senior year. Projected as a second round pick, he came back.

This is an SDSU program that has - at BEST - about 1/3 to 1/2 of our sucky NIL budget. There are NOT whales contributing - because bluntly it is San Diego. Madsen makes 500,000 MORE than Brian Dutcher. It is MADDENING that they are so much better a program.

You used to be able to chalk it up to that it was a joke of a school. It has gotten increasingly competitive and being tangentially involved with SDSU faculty politics I can tell you that it isn't some SEC school where athletics wag the dog. Indeed, SDSU athletics has operated historically at a pretty significant deficit.

PS. I promised so will not go too much about how I think that playing in the reformed Pac12/MWC aligns SDSU with the level of support it has. I think an SDSU in the ACC would very quickly get creamed. I always thought an SDSU in the old Pac12 would be embarrassed - largely because while SDSU has a ton of alums the level of sports craziness as measured by whales willing to donate huge $$$ isn't really there.

PPS. But what SDSU does so much better than Cal is act business like and they have alumni connected to certain decisions that act like the best predatory private equity capitalists. How they "rolled" the city (and competitors) at the old Qualcomm site was masterful to watch.


calumnus
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socaltownie said:

Sorry for the rant. DEEPLY frustrated today after it was announced that Byrd is returning to San Diego State for his senior year. Projected as a second round pick, he came back.

This is an SDSU program that has - at BEST - about 1/3 to 1/2 of our sucky NIL budget. There are NOT whales contributing - because bluntly it is San Diego. Madsen makes 500,000 MORE than Brian Dutcher. It is MADDENING that they are so much better a program.

You used to be able to chalk it up to that it was a joke of a school. It has gotten increasingly competitive and being tangentially involved with SDSU faculty politics I can tell you that it isn't some SEC school where athletics wag the dog. Indeed, SDSU athletics has operated historically at a pretty significant deficit.

PS. I promised so will not go too much about how I think that playing in the reformed Pac12/MWC aligns SDSU with the level of support it has. I think an SDSU in the ACC would very quickly get creamed. I always thought an SDSU in the old Pac12 would be embarrassed - largely because while SDSU has a ton of alums the level of sports craziness as measured by whales willing to donate huge $$$ isn't really there.

PPS. But what SDSU does so much better than Cal is act business like and they have alumni connected to certain decisions that act like the best predatory private equity capitalists. How they "rolled" the city (and competitors) at the old Qualcomm site was masterful to watch.


Our issue isn't how much we spend, it is how intelligently we spend it. We spend too much on bad ADs that spend too much on bad coaches.
sluggo
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calumnus said:

socaltownie said:

Sorry for the rant. DEEPLY frustrated today after it was announced that Byrd is returning to San Diego State for his senior year. Projected as a second round pick, he came back.

This is an SDSU program that has - at BEST - about 1/3 to 1/2 of our sucky NIL budget. There are NOT whales contributing - because bluntly it is San Diego. Madsen makes 500,000 MORE than Brian Dutcher. It is MADDENING that they are so much better a program.

You used to be able to chalk it up to that it was a joke of a school. It has gotten increasingly competitive and being tangentially involved with SDSU faculty politics I can tell you that it isn't some SEC school where athletics wag the dog. Indeed, SDSU athletics has operated historically at a pretty significant deficit.

PS. I promised so will not go too much about how I think that playing in the reformed Pac12/MWC aligns SDSU with the level of support it has. I think an SDSU in the ACC would very quickly get creamed. I always thought an SDSU in the old Pac12 would be embarrassed - largely because while SDSU has a ton of alums the level of sports craziness as measured by whales willing to donate huge $$$ isn't really there.

PPS. But what SDSU does so much better than Cal is act business like and they have alumni connected to certain decisions that act like the best predatory private equity capitalists. How they "rolled" the city (and competitors) at the old Qualcomm site was masterful to watch.


Our issue isn't how much we spend, it is how intelligently we spend it. We spend too much on bad ADs that spend too much on bad coaches.
Who give those coaches contracts that are too long, and, in the case of basketball, do not spend NIL wisely (or at least that appears to be the case to an outsider).
Iamhere2help
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I don't get you - Six of our incoming players are 4 or 5stars. What are you talking about? Mark has shocked me how well he rebounded off losing 2 future NBA players. When in the entire history of Cal has the basketball team had Six 4 or 5 star players on the team?
I mean almost every guy shoots 40% or better from 3. What exactly do you want?
sluggo
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Iamhere2help said:

I don't get you - Six of our incoming players are 4 or 5stars. What are you talking about? Mark has shocked me how well he rebounded off losing 2 future NBA players. When in the entire history of Cal has the basketball team had Six 4 or 5 star players on the team?
I mean almost every guy shoots 40% or better from 3. What exactly do you want?
What are you talking about? I guess some players were highly ranked at some point in their life. How many scored 10 points a game last year at the P4 level? 0. For instance, the starting point guard averaged one point a game and quit on his team before the season was over. The freshman power forward has already been on three teams and has been injured.

I want some players with a recent history of success at a high level or a recent history of success at a lower level with transferable skills. For the Madsen "system" players are needed with one-on-one skills. Let's see who is right about these players.
Iamhere2help
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This is what Im talking about and its based on national recruiting not bear insider:
Jovani Ruff
Long Beach, CA
SG
6/5/2024
SIGNED


95.2





National


Chris Bell
Concord, CA
SF
4/23/2025


94.3





National

Justin Pippen
Ann Arbor, MI
PG
4/8/2025
SIGNED



93.7





National


Dai Dai Ames
Charolettesville, VA
CG
4/1/2025
SIGNED



93.6





National


Sammie Yeanay
Phoenix, AZ
PF
4/9/2025
SIGNED




92.9





National


Semetri Carr
San Francisco, CA
PG
9/15/2024
SIGNED



90.9


So they suck because they rated so high nationally?
Hmmmmmmm
You're different.
sluggo
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Iamhere2help said:

This is what Im talking about and its based on national recruiting not bear insider:
Jovani Ruff
Long Beach, CA
SG
6/5/2024
SIGNED


95.2





National


Chris Bell
Concord, CA
SF
4/23/2025


94.3





National

Justin Pippen
Ann Arbor, MI
PG
4/8/2025
SIGNED



93.7





National


Dai Dai Ames
Charolettesville, VA
CG
4/1/2025
SIGNED



93.6





National


Sammie Yeanay
Phoenix, AZ
PF
4/9/2025
SIGNED




92.9





National


Semetri Carr
San Francisco, CA
PG
9/15/2024
SIGNED



90.9


So they suck because they rated so high nationally?
Hmmmmmmm
You're different.
They are lots of scouting services. Not sure where you got these numbers, but they are higher than typical. I like Ruff, who is generally considered a low 4 star. Carr is very small and considered 3 star. Yeaney is at his third school in the last year and has been injured. I don't know what to think of him. Ames and Pippen and Bell are veterans who you would not find on draft boards. I guess those are transfer ratings, don't mean much to me. I look forward to seeing how good they are.
Iamhere2help
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Sheeees, i got it here on bearinsider. It had bearinsider and national rankings. Go look under recruiting then basketball. I assumed you had already looked. But maybe thats why we disagree.
sluggo
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Iamhere2help said:

Sheeees, i got it here on bearinsider. It had bearinsider and national rankings. Go look under recruiting then basketball. I assumed you had already looked. But maybe thats why we disagree.
I tend to look at 24/7. https://247sports.com/player/jovani-ruff-46125790/ and https://247sports.com/player/semetri-carr-46142573/. ESPN ranked them much lower https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/250602/jovanni-ruff and https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/256889/semetri-carr

Different ranking services give different rankings, I am not sure why you think your rankings give special insight. I don't think rankings of players already in college matter. What matters is what they have done in college.

So I have looked at rankings and watched video and I trust my eyes.
StillNoStanfurdium
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sluggo said:

Iamhere2help said:

Sheeees, i got it here on bearinsider. It had bearinsider and national rankings. Go look under recruiting then basketball. I assumed you had already looked. But maybe thats why we disagree.
I tend to look at 24/7. https://247sports.com/player/jovani-ruff-46125790/ and https://247sports.com/player/semetri-carr-46142573/. ESPN ranked them much lower https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/250602/jovanni-ruff and https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/256889/semetri-carr

Different ranking services give different rankings, I am not sure why you think your rankings give special insight. I don't think rankings of players already in college matter. What matters is what they have done in college.

So I have looked at rankings and watched video and I trust my eyes.

It very well could be that the recruiting services didn't like his play and development from last summer onwards but I swear Ruff's ratings and rankings saw a, by now sadly expected, drop after he committed to Cal.
concernedparent
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Iamhere2help said:

This is what Im talking about and its based on national recruiting not bear insider:
Jovani Ruff
Long Beach, CA
SG
6/5/2024
SIGNED


95.2





National


Chris Bell
Concord, CA
SF
4/23/2025


94.3





National

Justin Pippen
Ann Arbor, MI
PG
4/8/2025
SIGNED



93.7





National


Dai Dai Ames
Charolettesville, VA
CG
4/1/2025
SIGNED



93.6





National


Sammie Yeanay
Phoenix, AZ
PF
4/9/2025
SIGNED




92.9





National


Semetri Carr
San Francisco, CA
PG
9/15/2024
SIGNED



90.9


So they suck because they rated so high nationally?
Hmmmmmmm
You're different.
Only relevant to Ruff and Carr. It doesn't really matter what a player's high school ranking was once they've played college ball, failed to perform, and have been passed up by other guys leading them to transfer.
RedlessWardrobe
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^
Agreed. Goes without saying, high school rankings are no guarantee to translate to college success. I know Madsen is doing his best and I support him, but it's highly unlikely that any of the players on the upcoming roster ever perform in a season of their college career to the level of AS and JW just did.
Big C
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Heishere2trollthistime.

Obviously, our talent level is below average relative to other schools in our conference right now. Maybe some things start to come together and we go .500 overall this coming season.

If a few guys outperform my expectations and we flirt with .500 in conference, it would give me great pleasure to come back in nine months and admit I was wrong, but we need more NIL, which will result in better players, plus Madsen needs to figure out how to best utilize the talent he has to work with.
BearSD
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socaltownie said:

PPS. But what SDSU does so much better than Cal is act business like and they have alumni connected to certain decisions that act like the best predatory private equity capitalists. How they "rolled" the city (and competitors) at the old Qualcomm site was masterful to watch.
They rolled the city because San Diego's politics are clique-ish and full of SDSU alums who were all too happy to give the university a huge gift at the expense of the city and its taxpayers.
PaulCali
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SDSU does have a dedicated basketball practice facility built for them by supporters in the community. They also had many good years from Steve Fisher as head mbb coach. Fisher actually built the SDSU basketball program.
PenBear
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however the ranking numbers are spinned, each of madsen's class is getting weaker and weaker. We lucked out on JW last year.
Bobodeluxe
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PenBear said:

however the ranking numbers are spinned, each of madsen's class is getting weaker and weaker. We lucked out on JW last year.
It's pay to play. Professional Minor League Basketball is like that.
calumnus
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247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72

Golden One
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calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.
bearsandgiants
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Golden One said:

calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.


He has to prove he can coach. So far, it's been a bit of a disaster when it comes to Xs and Os.
socaltownie
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bearsandgiants said:

Golden One said:

calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.


He has to prove he can coach. So far, it's been a bit of a disaster when it comes to Xs and Os.
I am not convinced he is a disaster. That list is striking. Other teams, with more talent, are ALSO coached and the whole idea is to force you into shots you don't like (while getting shots you do.

Now with that META point made I do wonder why the heck we could not defend the high screen/pick and roll until about 3/.4 of the way through the season. Again, I do not see why our site (or others) can not ask a respectful question.

"Coach - if you take a look at the entire season, at the start we were really exploited by the high on ball screen action. Missouri, for example, ran it over and over again in the second half. But that was just one game. During the last 6 or 8 we started to hedge hard and seemed to better defend the action. What changed? Just the challenges of roster turn over or something else?"

HKBear97!
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bearsandgiants said:

Golden One said:

calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.


He has to prove he can coach. So far, it's been a bit of a disaster when it comes to Xs and Os.


+1. Based just on this list we should have kept Wyking - by now his teams might have finally learned how to run an inbound play! LOL
Big C
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HKBear97! said:

bearsandgiants said:

Golden One said:

calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.


He has to prove he can coach. So far, it's been a bit of a disaster when it comes to Xs and Os.


+1. Based just on this list we should have kept Wyking - by now his teams might have finally learned how to run an inbound play! LOL

Wyking was definitely building something during his two years here. Unfortunately, it was a hovel.
stu
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Big C said:

HKBear97! said:

bearsandgiants said:

Golden One said:

calumnus said:

247 Overall Recruiting Rankings

2017 Jones #52
2018 Jones #42
2019 Fox #64
2020 Fox #90
2021 Fox #70
2022 Fox #94
2023 Madsen #60
2024 Madsen #73
2025 Madsen #72




Consistently crappy. That level of recruiting just won't cut it.


He has to prove he can coach. So far, it's been a bit of a disaster when it comes to Xs and Os.


+1. Based just on this list we should have kept Wyking - by now his teams might have finally learned how to run an inbound play! LOL

Wyking was definitely building something during his two years here. Unfortunately, it was a hovel.
He assembled all the materials but was neither a builder nor an architect.
Econ141
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Does not matter, they got it done. Would you have expected Cal to get it done with all those connections? They would find a way not to. Cal would have flubbed the B1G deal if we had been fortunate enough to be in UCLA's shoes
Give to Cal Legends!

https://calegends.com/donation/ Do it now. Text every Cal fan you know, give them the link, tell them how much you gave, and ask them to text every Cal fan they know and do the same.
barsad
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Iamhere2help said:

I don't get you - Six of our incoming players are 4 or 5stars. What are you talking about? Mark has shocked me how well he rebounded off losing 2 future NBA players. When in the entire history of Cal has the basketball team had Six 4 or 5 star players on the team?
I mean almost every guy shoots 40% or better from 3. What exactly do you want?

https://bearinsider.com/forums/3/topics/126727/replies/2484396
Please check the player profile pages on this roster post, I count one player (Bell) with a 40% 3P percentage.
As for "losing 2 future NBA players," AS and JW have zero chance of making it to the NBA, you heard it here first. They'll be lucky to join Daws in Belgium.
Agree that high school recruiting rankings are not worth the forum posts they're cut-and-pasted on… unless you're a Cooper Flagg or something.
The truth is that none of us can predict how good or bad this team is (nor can the people who put the team together) until we see them on the court for a few games, so we should probably put our torches and pitchforks away until November. Madsen gets one more season to make something happen.
Growler91
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These rankings are absurd. Madsen's portal classes according to On3:

2025 37
2024 15
2023 10
calumnus
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Growler91 said:

These rankings are absurd. Madsen's portal classes according to On3:

2025 37
2024 15
2023 10



The 247 ratings I posted are Overall, both HS and Portal combined.
Growler91
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With all respect, your list is whack. Here is the actual link to 247's problematically algorythmed "class calculator" which builds in a huge bias for the projected number of remaining years a player has, a modeling assumption that makes no sense in today's game.

https://247sports.com/college/california/season/2025-basketball/classcalculator/

By 247's own measure, Madsen has recruited the top 3 classes recruited by the last three coaches and it's not even close. Here are the class scores:

2025: 62.99 (Madsen)
2024: 65.28 (Madsen)
2023: 60.36 (Madsen)
2022: 50.15 (Fox)
2021: 36.00 (Fox)
2020: 43.95 (Fox)
2019: 44.07 (Fox)
2018: 53.42 (Jones)
2017: 47.78 (Jones)

Here are the actual 3-4 star players each coach has signed by the 247 measuring stick.

Madsen top transfers
Dai Dai Ames 4*
Sammie Yeanay 4*
Justin Pippen 4*
Chris Bell 4*
John Camden 4*
Nolan Dorsey 4*
Andrej Stojakovic 4*
BJ Omot 4*
Jaylon Tyson 4*
Fardaws Aimaq 4*
Milos Illic 3*
Mady Sissoko 3*
Lee Dort 3*
Spencer Mahoney 3*
Josh Ola-Joseph 3*
DJ Cambell 3*
Jovan Blacksher 3*
Christian Tucker 3*
Rytis Petraitis 3*
Jalen Cone 3*
Keonte Kennedy 3*

Madsen top HS recruits
Jovani Ruff 3*
Semetri Carr 3*
Jeremiah Wilkinson 3*
Rodney Brown 3*
Devin Curtis 3*

Fox top transfers
Devin Askew 3*
Jared Hyder 3*

Fox top HS recruits
Monty Bowser 4*
ND Okafor 3*
Grant Newell 3*
Marsalis Roberson 3*
Obinna Anyanwy 3*
Jalen Celestine 3*
Joel Brown 3*
DJ Thorpe 3*
Kuany Kuany 3*

Jones top transfers
(None)

Jones top HS recruits
Matt Bradley 4*
Jacobi Gordon 3*
Andre Kelly 3*
Conner Vanover 3*
Juhwan Harris-Dyson 3*
Darius McNeill 3*
Justice Sueing 3*
Grant Anticevich 3*
Austin McCullough 3*

To sum, again according to 247, in three years, Madsen has brought in 10 4-stars. In four years, Fox brought in one horribly overrated four-star. In two years, Wyking brought in one legit 4-star. The problem under Madsen is not the recruiting. It's the level of fan support. If you want things to improve, please give some frickin' money to Legends or the Men's BBall Excellence Fund.

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