BC Calfan said:

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https://www.dailycal.org/sports/msports/basketball/jovani-ruff-tt-carr-eye-immediate-impact-as-cal-freshmen/article_8c42a082-3119-4086-9a49-9884a8e56041.html

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I'm really hoping these two make a big impact this season, stay 4 years and help to grow our fanbase.

I miss the late 50s, a rose bowl and ncaa bb finals

Carr passing highlights

Have to draw the line at passing highlights. That's like a carpenter filming highlights of himself hammering a nail into a board. Didn't see any pass in there that any college player in D1 should be able to do without thinking about.
Of course I want both Carr and Ruff to succeed, but becoming a top point guard in the ACC (for Carr) takes time and experience and a kind of "basketball intelligence" that is hard to develop at the high school level… so tempering expectations at this point.

barsad said:

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Have to draw the line at passing highlights. That's like a carpenter filming highlights of himself hammering a nail into a board. Didn't see any pass in there that any college player in D1 should be able to do without thinking about.
Of course I want both Carr and Ruff to succeed, but becoming a top point guard in the ACC (for Carr) takes time and experience and a kind of "basketball intelligence" that is hard to develop at the high school level… so tempering expectations at this point.

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Players will not be wide open in the Acc

barsad said:

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Have to draw the line at passing highlights. That's like a carpenter filming highlights of himself hammering a nail into a board. Didn't see any pass in there that any college player in D1 should be able to do without thinking about.
Of course I want both Carr and Ruff to succeed, but becoming a top point guard in the ACC (for Carr) takes time and experience and a kind of "basketball intelligence" that is hard to develop at the high school level… so tempering expectations at this point.

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I do find some players have the vision for passing (recent example is the first round NBA Chinese player who is dropping dimes in the summer league). hopefully Carr is one of them.

But a concern of mine is the best assists from a PG comes from driving and forcing the defense to collapse and then kicking out, or dropping to the big who's defender just left him.

I didn't watch the entire video, but didn't see much of that.

Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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You want to see something more like this? Maxine got nutmegged.

HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

Got it

sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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On the other hand he is the same height and 5 pounds heavier than Steph Curry was as a 3 star (despite being the son of an NBA player) freshman phenom at Davidson leading them to 29-5. Not saying I think he can be anything like that, but size doesn't have to be an absolute limitation at PG. However, I do agree that of the two, Ruff is more likely to be a difference maker as a freshman.

calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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On the other hand he is the same height and 5 pounds heavier than Steph Curry was as a 3 star (despite being the son of an NBA player) freshman phenom at Davidson leading them to 29-5. Not saying I think he can be anything like that, but size doesn't have to be an absolute limitation at PG. However, I do agree that of the two, Ruff is more likely to be a difference maker as a freshman.

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Right, if it turns out that Carr is the all time best player at his particular height and weight then his size won't hold him back. Size/athleticism is very relevant for 99% of players, and there is no evidence Carr is anything special.

more on Carr...

sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

---

There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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On the other hand he is the same height and 5 pounds heavier than Steph Curry was as a 3 star (despite being the son of an NBA player) freshman phenom at Davidson leading them to 29-5. Not saying I think he can be anything like that, but size doesn't have to be an absolute limitation at PG. However, I do agree that of the two, Ruff is more likely to be a difference maker as a freshman.

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Right, if it turns out that Carr is the all time best player at his particular height and weight then his size won't hold him back. Size/athleticism is very relevant for 99% of players, and there is no evidence Carr is anything special.

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No argument, and you did qualify your statement with "unlikely" but he doesn't have to come close to being half as good as Curry was for Davidson as a freshmen to "make an impact" on this Cal team, which was my main point: size in of itself doesn't have to limit him. I trust your analysis. I don't see anything amazing in the videos either. I'll be happy if he is a solid PG off the bench and plays significant Monte's effectively. As I said, Carr has the better chance of being an impact player for us as a freshman.

calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

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There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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On the other hand he is the same height and 5 pounds heavier than Steph Curry was as a 3 star (despite being the son of an NBA player) freshman phenom at Davidson leading them to 29-5. Not saying I think he can be anything like that, but size doesn't have to be an absolute limitation at PG. However, I do agree that of the two, Ruff is more likely to be a difference maker as a freshman.

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Seems to me a good point of comparison would be Jerome Randle. His first year at Cal, Randle came off the bench behind Ubaka, which was no disgrace as Ubaka finally blossomed his senior year. Per sports-reference.com, he averaged 6.5 pts and 2.8 assists per game, but there's no minutes/game data. Given the number of top players who come out of the Chicago area, I assume Randle had tougher competition than Carr prior to arriving at Cal, but who knows - it was almost 20 years ago! Time flys . . .

"It was twenty years-ago today, Sgt Pepper taught the band to play . . . "

HearstMining said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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HoopDreams said:

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sluggo said:

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Harky4 said:

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Jeremiah showed last year what an undervalued frosh can do with Mark's tutoring on the court during the season and then financially afterwards as a valued NIL portal transfer

---

There is a big difference between Wilkinson and Carr. While they are about the same height, Wilkinson came in physically developed with college level strength. Carr appears not to be there physically, so I think it is very unlikely he can do what Wilkinson did. Ruff looks to have the physicality to compete right away if he has the skills (which I think he does).

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Agree. The Carr comparison should not be to Wilkinson, but I don't think that was his point. I think he's saying a freshmen can surprise and have a big contribution.

I think the better comparison is Christian Tucker. However Tucker was a senior with a lot of experience so we will see.

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I am saying that he is unlikely to surprise because he needs to be physically competitive, which I don't think he is. I was not saying that he plays like Wilkinson.

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On the other hand he is the same height and 5 pounds heavier than Steph Curry was as a 3 star (despite being the son of an NBA player) freshman phenom at Davidson leading them to 29-5. Not saying I think he can be anything like that, but size doesn't have to be an absolute limitation at PG. However, I do agree that of the two, Ruff is more likely to be a difference maker as a freshman.

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Seems to me a good point of comparison would be Jerome Randle. His first year at Cal, Randle came off the bench behind Ubaka, which was no disgrace as Ubaka finally blossomed his senior year. Per sports-reference.com, he averaged 6.5 pts and 2.8 assists per game, but there's no minutes/game data. Given the number of top players who come out of the Chicago area, I assume Randle had tougher competition than Carr prior to arriving at Cal, but who knows - it was almost 20 years ago! Time flys . . .

"It was twenty years-ago today, Sgt Pepper taught the band to play . . . "

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Randle definitely had a toughness coming in. He attended Hales Franciscan High School in Chicago, Illinois. In 2005, he won a pair of championships after guiding his high school team to a 274 record and the Illinois state title and helping his Chicago Ferrari team to the 17-and-under AAU national crown, earning tournament MVP honors after scoring 44 points in one tournament game. He averaged 25 points, 1.5 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 steals as senior in earning state Class A Player of the Year honors from the Chicago Sun-Times.

It was understandable that he played behind a senior Ubaka as a freshman, but it was crazy how many on this board's predecessor thought a freshman Knezevic (who started 16 games) was better the next year.

More to the point, if we had a senior Ubaka at PG there would be zero speculation about Carr potentially starting and being an impact player.

calumnus said:

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Randle definitely had a toughness coming in. He attended Hales Franciscan High School in Chicago, Illinois. In 2005, he won a pair of championships after guiding his high school team to a 274 record and the Illinois state title and helping his Chicago Ferrari team to the 17-and-under AAU national crown, earning tournament MVP honors after scoring 44 points in one tournament game. He averaged 25 points, 1.5 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 steals as senior in earning state Class A Player of the Year honors from the Chicago Sun-Times.

It was understandable that he played behind a senior Ubaka as a freshman, but it was crazy how many on this board's predecessor thought a freshman Knezevic (who started 16 games) was better the next year.

More to the point, if we had a senior Ubaka at PG there would be zero speculation about Carr potentially starting and being an impact player.

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Like so many topics on this board and others, I recall it differently, but agree with your point. That is....

I recall about 50 people posting a message with a 'realistic' take on Knezevic. And about 5 or 6 people posting 20 or 30 times each how great Knezevic was. So it seemed like many on this board supported him. When in reality a minority supported Randle, a VERY SMALL minority supported Knezevic VERY LOUDLY and repeatedly and the VAST majority was silent.

As a result, the echo chamber warped reality - but that is what sticks in our memory. hehehehe

This!

And 5-6 is generous

BeachedBear said:

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calumnus said:

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Randle definitely had a toughness coming in. He attended Hales Franciscan High School in Chicago, Illinois. In 2005, he won a pair of championships after guiding his high school team to a 274 record and the Illinois state title and helping his Chicago Ferrari team to the 17-and-under AAU national crown, earning tournament MVP honors after scoring 44 points in one tournament game. He averaged 25 points, 1.5 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 steals as senior in earning state Class A Player of the Year honors from the Chicago Sun-Times.

It was understandable that he played behind a senior Ubaka as a freshman, but it was crazy how many on this board's predecessor thought a freshman Knezevic (who started 16 games) was better the next year.

More to the point, if we had a senior Ubaka at PG there would be zero speculation about Carr potentially starting and being an impact player.

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Like so many topics on this board and others, I recall it differently, but agree with your point. That is....

I recall about 50 people posting a message with a 'realistic' take on Knezevic. And about 5 or 6 people posting 20 or 30 times each how great Knezevic was. So it seemed like many on this board supported him. When in reality a minority supported Randle, a VERY SMALL minority supported Knezevic VERY LOUDLY and repeatedly and the VAST majority was silent.

As a result, the echo chamber warped reality - but that is what sticks in our memory. hehehehe

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I will readily admit to being one of the people who thought they saw good potential in Knezevic. But then, for whatever reason, it became more and more apparent that he was not realizing it. One possible explanation, of course, is that what I thought I saw was never there in the first place.

Big C said:

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I will readily admit to being one of the people who thought they saw good potential in Knezevic. But then, for whatever reason, it became more and more apparent that he was not realizing it. One possible explanation, of course, is that what I thought I saw was never there in the first place.

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perhaps you saw him as the better defender

Knezevic had a couple of things going for him:

• He was from Serbia at a time when they had/has a reputation for producing good basketball players
• He was athletic.

Unfortunately, he was a lousy basketball player at the major college level. Cal has had several good athletes over the years who just weren't very good basketball players, Sam Alajiki being a prime example. Imagine Alajiki as a tight end! Too bad he couldn't shoot, was just a so-so rebounder, and played with a bunch of other so-so players. A good team might have a guy like that as their #9 player, but on talent-starved Cal, he's in the rotation, of not starting.

HoopDreams said:

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Big C said:

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I will readily admit to being one of the people who thought they saw good potential in Knezevic. But then, for whatever reason, it became more and more apparent that he was not realizing it. One possible explanation, of course, is that what I thought I saw was never there in the first place.

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perhaps you saw him as the better defender

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I am forgetting what Nikola's first year was at Cal...

I wasn't making comparisons (and certainly not to Randle the finished product), but I thought Knezevic had potential as a starting PG. Pretty good length and wiry strength... athleticism looked decent... willing defender, seemed like a good passer... his outside shot needed to improve, but I thought maybe it would.

Oops. Might've been wishful thinking.

HearstMining said:

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Knezevic had a couple of things going for him:

• He was from Serbia at a time when they had/has a reputation for producing good basketball players
• He was athletic.

Unfortunately, he was a lousy basketball player at the major college level. Cal has had several good athletes over the years who just weren't very good basketball players, Sam Alajiki being a prime example. Imagine Alajiki as a tight end! Too bad he couldn't shoot, was just a so-so rebounder, and played with a bunch of other so-so players. A good team might have a guy like that as their #9 player, but on talent-starved Cal, he's in the rotation, of not starting.

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He was also a lefty and very good at driving left. However, once teams scouted him it became obvious he could not dribble right and could not shoot, he had little going for him other than being taller than Randle.

While I was down on Knezevich I was super high on Randle and could not see why others were not also.

But what was super crazy was that Braun spent much of that season playing Randle and Knezevich at the same time, in the same backcourt THAT made ZERO sense. That team had front line players Hardin, Anderson, Jordan Wilkes, Harper Kamp, Jamal Boykin but Braun often went small with a starting lineup of Randle, Knezevic, Christopher, Vierniesal, Anderson and finished second to last in conference and got fired.

We never saw the lineup I wanted: Randle, Christoper, Boykin, Anderson, Hardin.

Knezevic barely played for Monty.

Big C said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Big C said:

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I will readily admit to being one of the people who thought they saw good potential in Knezevic. But then, for whatever reason, it became more and more apparent that he was not realizing it. One possible explanation, of course, is that what I thought I saw was never there in the first place.

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perhaps you saw him as the better defender

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I am forgetting what Nikola's first year was at Cal...

I wasn't making comparisons (and certainly not to Randle the finished product), but I thought Knezevic had potential as a starting PG. Pretty good length and wiry strength... athleticism looked decent... willing defender, seemed like a good passer... his outside shot needed to improve, but I thought maybe it would.

Oops. Might've been wishful thinking.

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IIRC, he came in with a bit of hype after showing out at his first camp in the US. Had offers from the likes of Kansas, I think? You certainly wouldn't be alone in thinking he would be a good one. I remember him being called for traveling early on and using the Euro rules as an excuse... except he kept on traveling.

I remember the players being asked who among them was the best dressed. Knezevic said he was, because he was European.

Randle blew up between his sophomore and junior years. His usage and efficiency both went way up. Maybe some could see it, I was surprised.

Knezevic never showed anything other than it looked like he could lift a lot.

sluggo said:

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Randle blew up between his sophomore and junior years. His usage and efficiency both went way up. Maybe some could see it, I was surprised.

Knezevic never showed anything other than it looked like he could lift a lot.

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Agreed. Randle attributed it to Monte not giving him the quick hook that Braun did, even though his MPGs were pretty similar.

sluggo said:

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Randle blew up between his sophomore and junior years. His usage and efficiency both went way up. Maybe some could see it, I was surprised.

Knezevic never showed anything other than it looked like he could lift a lot.

He made three threes at Arizona helping us win. All from the same spot.

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sluggo said:

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Randle blew up between his sophomore and junior years. His usage and efficiency both went way up. Maybe some could see it, I was surprised.

Knezevic never showed anything other than it looked like he could lift a lot.

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Knezevic was kinda skinny
https://images.app.goo.gl/uS4aytc6oU2pajpy9

Maybe you are thinking of Vierniesal?

Randle was an eventual Pac-12 Player of the Year. Not saying that was obvious as a sophomore, but he didn't have to play at POY levels for it to be obvious he was better than Knezevic: he was shooting close to .400 from three, was getting assists and was active on the court. The main issue was Knezevic and Vierniesal playing so much instead of Boykin, Kamp (before the knee injury and weight gain), Anderson , Hardin and Wilkes. Crazy that Braun coached that talent to second to last place. Pretty good recruiter though, and if he had landed LeBron and Nowitski…