Down to 6.............................................

We're playing lights out in the second half.

Making a nice run. Down 7

Great sign the team never gave up - this is a huge positive.

Dut has to play ahead of Illlic.

No matter what happens, this flurry of 3-point shooting from Bell and Ames has been amazing and providing hope….
Dai Dai turnover means game over.

Nice second half. Will lose by 3

This is a moral victory! Cal only losing by 3? Great 2nd half Bears!!

Gutsy play by CAL.....

Cal did win the second half!

Despite the loss, this game was very encouraging. Our guys never gave up and played a phenomenal second half. I'm optimistic for this season. We have some players on this team, and they play like a team.

JimSox said:

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ncbears said:

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Can Cal win the second half?

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Seems unlikely

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Apparently I was wrong about that.
What's the lesson here? Let Bell shoot! Ames, too.
But could use some defense against a good, athletic, sharp shooting team.

Wow! I haven't followed Men's BB as much as football, but that's going to change based on what I saw tonight. We've got some people who can hoop, I'm expecting to see more good results in ACC play to come.

Ames and Bell showed me they're bona fide ACC players. Carr and Dut looked better than I expected.

stu said:

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Ames and Bell showed me they're bona fide ACC players. Carr and Dut looked better than I expected.

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They both earned more playing time for sure.

The 2 stupid (not necessary to be called) were the difference in the game.

The plane ride home will be much more palatable with this 2nd half showing.

It would have been so easy to come out of the half and fold up the tent, but what a treat we witnessed. Let's build on this, tweak some lineups and minutes, and rock through the rest of the non-conf schedule. The Bear will not quit….

Leading cal rebounder, the smallest guy with minimal minutes!

Oakbear said:

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Leading cal rebounder, the smallest guy with minimal minutes!

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All in 16 minutes. Position and hustle.

Full disclosure, I only watched about a third of the game. That said, assuming the stats posted above are accurate, there are certainly some oddities:

Carr was our leading rebounder, with 50% more boards than the second guy.

Chris Bell with a lot of points, but no boards and one assist (but I'll take those points!).

Petraitis, 0 points, 0 assists, 1 board

Ames ain't no joke!

Dut: I'm gonna have to read up on this guy!

First half shooting for K State was insane. Maybe the best shooting I can remember from any college basketball game in the last 10 years. Cal flipped the script in the 2nd half, but with home court and home cooking from the refs (many phantom calls throughout), it was too much in the end. Camden didn't have his best game, but Bell improved dramatically from the CSU Fullerton game. Maybe Bell just needed the extra motivation. Agree that Carr looks like a solid role player. Also agree that this loss feels different than the early losses last year. Ames is the difference.

My probably overly rash prediction based on this game alone:

Dut and TT will be starting at C and PG before the year is over.

Both brought energy, team oriented play and surprisingly good BBIQ for guys with a combined 67 mins of college experience. I don't think it was a surprise that the team played their best with both of them in supporting roles.

Carr pushed the ball up the court confidently, dished a couple of legitimately great assists, played hard and looked like he belonged. Downside is that he's undersized and needs a couple years of P4 strength and conditioning.

Dut was seemingly everywhere while also playing within himself and quietly filled up the box score (3 blocks, 1 steal, 3 boards in 13 mins).

Meanwhile, if you asked me how many turnovers Pippen had without looking at a box score, I'd would have said easily 6+ (officially 4). And way too many offensive possessions ground to the halt with his indecisiveness, lack of confidence in his outside shot and inability to move the ball around.

And while Dort made some nice plays and was a physical presence, there was also many moments of playing out of control, being out of position and committing silly fouls.

I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

Hey, northbay, keep those posts comin'! Go Bears!!!

northbay said:

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I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

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Have to agree with northbay, this loss may be the best thing for Cal in terms of exposing who our best 5 are. New starting 5 I'd like to see next game (Madsen should not make the same mistake he made last year and wait for the entire noncon season before yanking original starters, see Blacksher):
Dut
Bell
Camden
Ames
Carr

barsad said:

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northbay said:

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I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

---

Have to agree with northbay, this loss may be the best thing for Cal in terms of exposing who our best 5 are. New starting 5 I'd like to see next game (Madsen should not make the same mistake he made last year and wait for the entire noncon season before yanking original starters, see Blacksher):
Dut
Bell
Camden
Ames
Carr

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Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

And I don't think it really matters who starts between Pippen and Carr. Carr should absolutely get more minutes in the non-con to continue developing his skills as this level. But Pippen should still be getting starter's level minutes as well. He's been disappointing, but he has the size and athleticism to succeed at the P4 level. We need him to come closer to reaching his potential to have any success as a team this season.

Honestly, as usual it's not about "who starts", it's about minutes.

The good news is, the more players that can give us quality minutes, the better the team will be. And to that point we still haven't been able to use DJ yet. It will be a good problem to have.

ManBear 100% on this post

ManBearLion123 said:

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barsad said:

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northbay said:

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I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

---

Have to agree with northbay, this loss may be the best thing for Cal in terms of exposing who our best 5 are. New starting 5 I'd like to see next game (Madsen should not make the same mistake he made last year and wait for the entire noncon season before yanking original starters, see Blacksher):
Dut
Bell
Camden
Ames
Carr

---

Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

And I don't think it really matters who starts between Pippen and Carr. Carr should absolutely get more minutes in the non-con to continue developing his skills as this level. But Pippen should still be getting starter's level minutes as well. He's been disappointing, but he has the size and athleticism to succeed at the P4 level. We need him to come closer to reaching his potential to have any success as a team this season.

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ManBearLion123 said:

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barsad said:

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northbay said:

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I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

---

Have to agree with northbay, this loss may be the best thing for Cal in terms of exposing who our best 5 are. New starting 5 I'd like to see next game (Madsen should not make the same mistake he made last year and wait for the entire noncon season before yanking original starters, see Blacksher):
Dut
Bell
Camden
Ames
Carr

---

Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

And I don't think it really matters who starts between Pippen and Carr. Carr should absolutely get more minutes in the non-con to continue developing his skills as this level. But Pippen should still be getting starter's level minutes as well. He's been disappointing, but he has the size and athleticism to succeed at the P4 level. We need him to come closer to reaching his potential to have any success as a team this season.

---

Pippen has been good to great in everything except shooting. He can be a great contributor if he either starts making shots, or stops taking them, but if he keeps firing up bricks it's going to kill us. Those misses, and our lack of a second low post option are what cost us a chance in the last game, I think.

bearsandgiants said:

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ManBearLion123 said:

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barsad said:

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northbay said:

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I was really impressed by how much he's worked on his body since the end of the last MCAL season. I wasn't sure how P4 ready from day 1 he would be since it's such a jump up in competition so props to TT for not just looking like he belonged but also playing winning basketball.

I think he could be a guy who goes from being a low volume scorer his first couple of college years to all of the sudden averaging 15 ppg+ as an upperclassmen and if that jump happens, it'll partially be because he worked on his body enough to consistently play through contact as a lane scorer (like what Wilkinson was able to do day 1 since he's built like a football player).

The height and wingspan will be a limitation unfortunately since he's light on his feet and seemed to put in great defensive effort.

There was a play late in the 2nd where he got isoed on Haggerty and stuck to him like a glove and contested the shot but Haggerty (whose size is his primary NBA limitation) easily rose over him to make the midrange J.

---

Have to agree with northbay, this loss may be the best thing for Cal in terms of exposing who our best 5 are. New starting 5 I'd like to see next game (Madsen should not make the same mistake he made last year and wait for the entire noncon season before yanking original starters, see Blacksher):
Dut
Bell
Camden
Ames
Carr

---

Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

And I don't think it really matters who starts between Pippen and Carr. Carr should absolutely get more minutes in the non-con to continue developing his skills as this level. But Pippen should still be getting starter's level minutes as well. He's been disappointing, but he has the size and athleticism to succeed at the P4 level. We need him to come closer to reaching his potential to have any success as a team this season.

---

Pippen has been good to great in everything except shooting. He can be a great contributor if he either starts making shots, or stops taking them, but if he keeps firing up bricks it's going to kill us. Those misses, and our lack of a second low post option are what cost us a chance in the last game, I think.

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Or maybe it was the way the entire team played for about eight minutes in the middle of the first half.

ManBearLion123 said:

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[
Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

---

Just to be clear, I'm saying Madsen can experiment with Dut… nothing says that you have to go with one center for 30 min and another for 10 min, or that you always have to start the same guy. If you take away the last four games (and I'm giving credit to Dort for his performance in those), how exactly is Dort "above-average" for P4? Is it his 3.6 PPG or 0.7 blocks from last year? Maybe his 60% FT rate? Maybe it's been so long since we had an above-average center at Cal that we've forgotten what that means.
I would like to see creativity in the lineup, not rigidity, so yes, if that means trying a raw talent like Dut, then that's what it takes. Dut could be a flop (like Ilic so far) but what's the harm?
Dort is going to run into a brick wall in conference play when his disadvantages on speed and movement, with the corresponding foul trouble, will catch up to him and hurt the team's chances to be anywhere in the top half of the ACC.

barsad said:

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ManBearLion123 said:

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[
Dut should absolutely not be starting over Dort. What we saw last night was encouraging, but he's still very, very raw. Dort is an above-average, P4 level big. If Dut can give us ~10-12 productive minutes a night, that would be a massive and unexpected development.

---

Just to be clear, I'm saying Madsen can experiment with Dut… nothing says that you have to go with one center for 30 min and another for 10 min, or that you always have to start the same guy. If you take away the last four games (and I'm giving credit to Dort for his performance in those), how exactly is Dort "above-average" for P4? Is it his 3.6 PPG or 0.7 blocks from last year? Maybe his 60% FT rate? Maybe it's been so long since we had an above-average center at Cal that we've forgotten what that means.
I would like to see creativity in the lineup, not rigidity, so yes, if that means trying a raw talent like Dut, then that's what it takes. Dut could be a flop (like Ilic so far) but what's the harm?
Dort is going to run into a brick wall in conference play when his disadvantages on speed and movement, with the corresponding foul trouble, will catch up to him and hurt the team's chances to be anywhere in the top half of the ACC.

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"If you take away his last 4 games" (AKA this season's games): ***?

Bigs tend to develop there games each season, and he already was a plus defender as a frosh.

Let's reconvene in March and we can decide if Dort is an above average center, the stats and what we see on court won't lie.