Kevin Ware - Are modern shoes a problem?

3,672 Views | 13 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by antipattern
SFCityBear
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I am sure all of you know more about modern basketball shoes than I do, but are the shoes safe?

I began thinking about this during the Cal season, long before the Kevin Ware injury. The reason for this was that I noticed that several of our Cal players were slipping, or stumbling, and falling on the court during games. I am not talking about intentionally falling when taking a charge, stepping on or tripping over another player's foot, or getting shoved to the floor on contact. I am talking about good athletes, like Allen Crabbe and Justin Cobbs just slipping or stumbling and falling in the open court while dribbling, with no physical contact with another player. Brandon Smith was another player who fell down for no apparent reason at times. As I look back on over 50 years of playing and watching basketball, I have never seen so many players fall down, with no apparent cause.

Then comes the tragic injury to Kevin Ware. Ware did nothing other than take a running jump at a player to block or bother a shot, with no physical contact with the player. He landed on two feet, and he suffers a compound fracture (which injury, incidentally, I have never seen or heard of in the same 50+ years of watching games).

This is all leading me to believe that there may be something faulty or lacking in the design of the modern basketball shoe. Honestly, I know nothing about them, but these shoes look so oversized. I suspect that with all the influence on jumping in the modern game, that the shoes are designed more for jumping than anything else. Is this true?

50 years ago, shoes were made of canvas and rubber. The sole was designed to give the best traction in all directions, and the rest of the shoe, being made of canvas, was designed to be light. The shoes were primitive, but the objective was to make them light, for speed in running, and with good traction for both lateral side to side movement, and running forward or backpedaling. And very few times did I ever see a player fall down without contact, for no apparent reason.

Rick Barry has recently introduced a new basketball shoe, designed to protect the ankle from sprains, which he is attempting to market. He feels such a shoe would benefit a player like Seth Curry, for example, who has ankle problems. Are there other shoes on the market that try to protect the player from injury?

I'd like to hear what those of you who are more knowledgeable about modern shoes would say about whether there is any relation between the increase in falls without contact and the shoes the modern player is wearing.

Thanks in advance.
mollydookerbear
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No one complained about the shoes back in '61.



Give it a rest.
BearyWhite
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mollydookerbear;842110379 said:

No one complained about the shoes back in '61.



Give it a rest.

don't be a d!ck.

edit: I guess that was a joke. OK.
Bearprof
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I think you could be on to something about the guys falling down for no reason. It really happened a lot. But for it to be attributed to today's shoes, it should be true for all teams. Perhaps I don't watch enough basketball to say, but I do not have the impression that is the case. So another possibility is that the specific shoe design used by Cal players. Anyone know whether their design/ brand is comomonly used elsewhere? There are yet other options, but I hate to go there.

I am more skeptical of the idea that this has anything to do with Ware's injury. Nothing about the injury would suggest a shoe problem. More likely he has a bone deficiency of some kind, or the exact physics of how he landed was highly unusual and created unusual and incredible force.
kjl80
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I can't remember where I read/heard this but someone had mentioned that Ware's injury might have been exacerbated by undiagnosed stress fractures in his leg.
bluesaxe
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kjl80;842110563 said:

I can't remember where I read/heard this but someone had mentioned that Ware's injury might have been exacerbated by undiagnosed stress fractures in his leg.

I've read a couple of comments to that effect and it makes sense. It's a freak thing, but I doubt it has a thing to do with shoes.
stu
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I can't remember the source, but not long ago I read that basketball shoes with too much traction could be partly responsible for the large number of knee injuries in women's basketball. The article mentioned some trainers match shoes to court conditions so they will slip before the forces get large enough to tear an ACL. This is a possible explanation for Ware's fracture if his bones gave way before his knee did.
SFCityBear
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mollydookerbear;842110379 said:

No one complained about the shoes back in '61.



Give it a rest.


Thanks for the funny(?), but contrived and phony, film clip. I was there in '61. Hardly anyone ever fell down all by himself in a game. Get real.
Californication
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But Kevin Ware did not slip and fall. If he had, we would not have suffered this injury in all likelihood. So your anecdotes seem to conflict with the conclusion drawn. I agree that too much traction can cause injuries (see Astroturf), but to relate this to the completely opposite problem on the Cal team is a flawed analysis.

So what we're left with in your analysis is ONE example of a horrific injury (in the last 50+ years, according to you) and we have to draw a conclusion about "modern shoes"?

Couldn't it equally be blamed on increased athleticism (jumping higher)? Poor dietary habits among kids (low calcium, poor bone development)? Freakishly bad luck? Not enough cushion in artificially created basketball surfaces in football stadiums?

To me, there are just too many possibilities to get involved in a discussion about the construction of athletic shoes.
HoopDreams
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I don't think shoes had anything to do with Ware's injury.
I do think there are several things wrong with today's basketball shoes compared to the past....

...use of synthetic 'leather' - I don't know for sure, but real leather seems like it has more natural give, and over times conforms to the foot better.

...poor insoles - the first thing I do when I buy new shoes is to rip out those 25 cent insoles, and replace them with a better sport insole. Better insoles lesson impact a great deal, which not only is better for your feet, but also your legs and back. Pretty lousy you could pay $100+ and get the same cheapo insole.

...shoe widths - I wish more basketball shoes gave width options. If the shoe (including width) don't fit properly, your foot can slip [U]inside [/U]the shoe.

...as for basketball shoes being too heavy. I don't think that's an issue....lots of basketball shoes are probably lighter than the old Converse fabric shoes.

I would say that some of the modern shoes add unnecessary features such as 'air cushions', and 'Shox' etc. I think they are mainly marketing hype and don't have any benefit to the wearer.


But you may have something about basketball shoes being too sticky. There is even a product available now that makes your basketball shoes MORE sticky. I looked at that and couldn't believe that's marketed as an 'improvement'. To me, it's exactly as you say....too much traction is bad (you just don't want to slip)


stu;842110572 said:

I can't remember the source, but not long ago I read that basketball shoes with too much traction could be partly responsible for the large number of knee injuries in women's basketball. The article mentioned some trainers match shoes to court conditions so they will slip before the forces get large enough to tear an ACL. This is a possible explanation for Ware's fracture if his bones gave way before his knee did.
BearyWhite
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a friend who's a nurse said a few people at work were theorizing that there was something else wrong (possibly cancer) that would weaken the leg like that because the injury was so uncommon for basketball players
petalumabear
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Interesting discussion, but I've read where Ware was asked by the attending hospital staff about shin problems and he said he hadn't had any. So, there doesn't seem to be any support for that idea.

Also, remember back to the start of last fall's football season. Keenan Allen was slipping and falling a couple of times a game... others had slip and fall's but it seemed to happen whenever KA got the ball and tried to make a move... I can certainly see how the trend toward lighter and lighter shoes and using more synthetic materials could be at the root of the problem

I think that Ware's injury was likely a one in a million occurence where the combination of his landing and the torque on his leg caused the fracture. I can't prove it but I'm sure someone will...
SFCityBear
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Californication;842110625 said:

But Kevin Ware did not slip and fall. If he had, we would not have suffered this injury in all likelihood. So your anecdotes seem to conflict with the conclusion drawn. I agree that too much traction can cause injuries (see Astroturf), but to relate this to the completely opposite problem on the Cal team is a flawed analysis.

So what we're left with in your analysis is ONE example of a horrific injury (in the last 50+ years, according to you) and we have to draw a conclusion about "modern shoes"?

Couldn't it equally be blamed on increased athleticism (jumping higher)? Poor dietary habits among kids (low calcium, poor bone development)? Freakishly bad luck? Not enough cushion in artificially created basketball surfaces in football stadiums?

To me, there are just too many possibilities to get involved in a discussion about the construction of athletic shoes.


All right, I'd agree that Kevin Ware likely had some bone condition which predisposed him to this injury, so that was one contributing factor. But leaving this injury aside, how do you explain the numerous times that Crabbe, Cobbs, and Smith either slipped, stumbled, tripped, or otherwise caused themselves to fall flat on their faces on the floor, generally while dribbling, and not being contacted by another player? It may be anecdotal, but it is 50 years of anecdotal watching and I have never seen anything like it.

These are very good athletes, not uncoordinated, playing on a floor designed for basketball, (and not in a football stadium). And they were not jumping. They were just running and bouncing a ball. Kids in the 4th grade can do this without falling down, or at least they used to be able to do this.

I would also correct you slightly on one point: jumping higher. Yes, the modern player jumps high. There are more players trying to jump high and do it more often than ever before. But jump higher? I don't think so. Connie Hawkiins, Bill Russell, Jumping Joe Caldwell. These guys could get up there with anyone around today. Hawkins was a legend. He used to pick quarters off the TOP of the backboard for lunch money in Harlem playgrounds. That's a fact.
Bearprof
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The women seem to be falling down a lot, just like the men.
antipattern
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It's gotta be the shoes
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