Alex Rossi no longer at Valparaiso

6,058 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by BearyWhite
DrDanger
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SFCityBear;842220449 said:

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man’s misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi’s heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

I felt that your continued obsession, contempt for a young Garrett Sim, was childish, and a little hateful, but this post about Cal not being able to develop good white players is illogical, disingenuous, and racist. I don’t know you well enough to say you are a racist, but the words in your post are racist, and there is no place for racism on this board. This Bear fan is not LOL.

You realize, of course, that according to Webster’s dictionary, there is no longer any idea in physical anthropology as dividing mankind into races. In the practical sense, there has been much interbreeding among various ethnicities as to begin to blur the distinction. But since much of the world has not been able to move beyond race as an identifier, let’s look at your argument:

To begin with, you cherry-picked which players you would consider or decide were white. Ryan Mendez is on your list of good white players. Mendez’ father was Cuban and his mother white. According to the political correctness of today, Mendez is not white, he is Hispanic, or Hispanic-American. So did you mean to include Hispanics in your list of white players? If so, you must include Chris Hernandez of Stanford, and Jorge Gutierrez of Cal.

And if you are going to include Ryan Mendez in your list of good white players, because his mother was white, and he is therefore 50% white, then you must also include Cal’s Jason Kidd on your list of white players, because his father was African-American and his mother white.

Then there is Cal's Tony Gonzales. His father was of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican ancestry, and his mother was of African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American ancestry. Does Tony make your list of whites? Both of his parents had some Caucasian ancestry.

How very magnanimous of you to include Amit Tamir, a Jew, in your “white” category. What other race would he be, since according to most Jews, Jewish is not, and never was a race?

Either you have forgotten to mention many of the good white players at Cal over the last 25 years, as others have ably pointed out, or you just cherry-picked a few of them to make up your list of successful white ballplayers. Your argument is disingenuous, because you did not include all the good white Cal players, and although you included many good white players from Stanford, Oregon, and USC, you neglected to give us the 25 year list of white players who played for those schools who did not become good players. And I would guess there are quite a few.

I will put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, using your definition of white, by stating that Ryan Anderson and Jason Kidd alone are better players than any of the white players in your list from Stanford, Oregon and USC.

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?



Fantastic post, and thank you for exposing "Dick" Lee's agenda.
KoreAmBear
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SFCityBear;842220449 said:

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man’s misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi’s heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

I felt that your continued obsession, contempt for a young Garrett Sim, was childish, and a little hateful, but this post about Cal not being able to develop good white players is illogical, disingenuous, and racist. I don’t know you well enough to say you are a racist, but the words in your post are racist, and there is no place for racism on this board. This Bear fan is not LOL.

You realize, of course, that according to Webster’s dictionary, there is no longer any idea in physical anthropology as dividing mankind into races. In the practical sense, there has been much interbreeding among various ethnicities as to begin to blur the distinction. But since much of the world has not been able to move beyond race as an identifier, let’s look at your argument:

To begin with, you cherry-picked which players you would consider or decide were white. Ryan Mendez is on your list of good white players. Mendez’ father was Cuban and his mother white. According to the political correctness of today, Mendez is not white, he is Hispanic, or Hispanic-American. So did you mean to include Hispanics in your list of white players? If so, you must include Chris Hernandez of Stanford, and Jorge Gutierrez of Cal.

And if you are going to include Ryan Mendez in your list of good white players, because his mother was white, and he is therefore 50% white, then you must also include Cal’s Jason Kidd on your list of white players, because his father was African-American and his mother white.

Then there is Cal's Tony Gonzales. His father was of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican ancestry, and his mother was of African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American ancestry. Does Tony make your list of whites? Both of his parents had some Caucasian ancestry.

How very magnanimous of you to include Amit Tamir, a Jew, in your “white” category. What other race would he be, since according to most Jews, Jewish is not, and never was a race?

Either you have forgotten to mention many of the good white players at Cal over the last 25 years, as others have ably pointed out, or you just cherry-picked a few of them to make up your list of successful white ballplayers. Your argument is disingenuous, because you did not include all the good white Cal players, and although you included many good white players from Stanford, Oregon, and USC, you neglected to give us the 25 year list of white players who played for those schools who did not become good players. And I would guess there are quite a few.

I will put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, using your definition of white, by stating that Ryan Anderson and Jason Kidd alone are better players than any of the white players in your list from Stanford, Oregon and USC.

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?


A bit of pontification, but generally valid, hard to argue with points. Come on, Richard's comments were about as harmful or harmless as the "White Guys Can't Jump" title of the movie and the movie's premise. If you want to be this vehement about it, then you probably have a problem with every comedian (black, white or otherwise) making fun of white guys playing basketball or with their dance moves. Look I know dude is a lightning rod, but I assure you most of it is schtick. He is a good fan. He has gone to every football game this year, including all road games (he may have missed that fun rainy Oregon game). He's stuck it out for home games when the opposing fans and seagulls outnumbered ours. I know, he deserves some of the crap he gets, but easy on the venom man.
mikecohen
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SFCityBear;842222977 said:

If you call Tony Gonzales a Latino, you are making one of my points, which is that a player of multiple ethnic heritage is whatever ethnicity we choose him to be. The current political correctness is if a player is of European and some other minority ethnicity, then we say the player is of the minority ethnicity extraction, and ignore the European component.

As I wrote, Gonzales’ father is of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican heritage. His mother is African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American. How do you get “Latino” out of that? You just picked it to suit your own argument. Just like I picked Jason Kidd as being “white” to suite mine.

Gonzales is no more than 1/8 Latino, the Mexican part. Most Portuguese detest being called Latino. Gonzales is no more Latino than he is African-American or Native American. He has more Caucasian or European blood than anything else.

If we want to look at Latino ballplayers, and use the European definition, since the word is derived from Latin, the language of ancient Rome, Latino would include anyone from the areas of Europe that Rome once ruled. That would include France and Italy. When we talk about Italian-American ballplayers at Cal, John Caselli comes to mind, but he was all I could think of. The greatest Italian-American ballplayer ever to come out of the Bay Area was Hank Luisetti, the greatest basketball player of his era. Unfortunately, he went to Stanford.

Here is an article on Luisetti, with comments by Mike Montgomery:

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=36959

:beer:


I'll never forget an interview program I saw on TV once, where the subject was a blond, blue-eyed, surfer kid who, it turns out, was the biological son of a family (with numerous siblings) all the rest of whom had identifiable physical characteristics of their part African-American heritage. The surfer kid was totally a surfer, and totally a part of his family, all without a second thought; and, amazingly, as close to a thoroughly non-political person as I've ever seen - all and all an extraordinarily innocent kid (kind of wondering what all the fuss was about). The takeaway from the program for me was his response when he was asked about any consequences for him from this somewhat odd circumstance. He was always confused by the various forms people (including himself) have to fill out, where the form asks one's race, with a list of boxes to check, and the admonition: "Choose one". In any case, by now, we all know that the concept of "race" has no scientific or physiological basis at all, and reflects ONLY the particular prejudices (i.e., the unfortunately widespread inclination of humans, based in the inability to deal with the true complexity of life, to put other humans in boxes, for no other conceivable purpose besides invidious and otherwise unjustifiable discrimination) of the particular society in which the name is called. Maybe a reason the thread starter had so much trouble with the category of Jew is that the Jewish gene pool is the repository of every army that ever crossed Central Europe - a problem that confounds every "racial" category (truth be told), because, as Godfrey Cambridge once said: If God didn't want miscegenation, he wouldn't have standardized the parts".
Richard_Lee
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DrDanger;842223071 said:

Fantastic post, and thank you for exposing "Dick" Lee's agenda.



Hey, I almost forgot.

How are your son's jock-sniffing adventures coming along? LOL!

Still won't let that one go, can you, Doc?

Come on, man, Walk away from your anger. I was just having fun. And you share some of the blame for that insult that apparently really got under your skin. After all, you started the back-and-forth. I just finished it.

:rollinglaugh: :bluecarrot: :rollinglaugh: :bluecarrot: :rollinglaugh:
Richard_Lee
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BearyWhite;842223058 said:

fify.



I love you, man!

You always keep my threads alive.

:beer: :rollinglaugh: :beer: :rollinglaugh: :beer:
Richard_Lee
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This post below was freaking [U]AWESOME[/U]!

LOL! :rollinglaugh: :rollinglaugh: :rollinglaugh: :rollinglaugh: :rollinglaugh:

You guys are consistently great. How much effort and time did you put into the below? :p

p.s. Thank you to BearyWhite. I had forgotten about this thread and hadn't checked this board in about a week until he alerted me over on the main Growls board. Needed the smiles after yesterday's Colorado game here in Boulder/Denver.


SFCityBear;842220449 said:

First of all, I find it despicable to use the occasion of a young man's misfortune, a serious heart condition which has caused him to retire from basketball, to turn the discussion into a blatant race-baiting tome to further your own ends, which appear to be a return to the days of bashing the Cal basketball coaching staffs, accusing them of not being able to recruit or develop good players, this time players of the white race. Our coaches should have known about Alex Rossi's heart condition before offering him a scholarship, is that right?

I felt that your continued obsession, contempt for a young Garrett Sim, was childish, and a little hateful, but this post about Cal not being able to develop good white players is illogical, disingenuous, and racist. I don't know you well enough to say you are a racist, but the words in your post are racist, and there is no place for racism on this board. This Bear fan is not LOL.

You realize, of course, that according to Webster's dictionary, there is no longer any idea in physical anthropology as dividing mankind into races. In the practical sense, there has been much interbreeding among various ethnicities as to begin to blur the distinction. But since much of the world has not been able to move beyond race as an identifier, let's look at your argument:

To begin with, you cherry-picked which players you would consider or decide were white. Ryan Mendez is on your list of good white players. Mendez' father was Cuban and his mother white. According to the political correctness of today, Mendez is not white, he is Hispanic, or Hispanic-American. So did you mean to include Hispanics in your list of white players? If so, you must include Chris Hernandez of Stanford, and Jorge Gutierrez of Cal.

And if you are going to include Ryan Mendez in your list of good white players, because his mother was white, and he is therefore 50% white, then you must also include Cal's Jason Kidd on your list of white players, because his father was African-American and his mother white.

Then there is Cal's Tony Gonzales. His father was of Portuguese, Scottish, and Jamaican ancestry, and his mother was of African-American, Caucasian, Mexican, and Native American ancestry. Does Tony make your list of whites? Both of his parents had some Caucasian ancestry.

How very magnanimous of you to include Amit Tamir, a Jew, in your "white" category. What other race would he be, since according to most Jews, Jewish is not, and never was a race?

Either you have forgotten to mention many of the good white players at Cal over the last 25 years, as others have ably pointed out, or you just cherry-picked a few of them to make up your list of successful white ballplayers. Your argument is disingenuous, because you did not include all the good white Cal players, and although you included many good white players from Stanford, Oregon, and USC, you neglected to give us the 25 year list of white players who played for those schools who did not become good players. And I would guess there are quite a few.

I will put the final nail in the coffin of your argument, using your definition of white, by stating that Ryan Anderson and Jason Kidd alone are better players than any of the white players in your list from Stanford, Oregon and USC.

Yours was an argument I wish I had never read. Based on your rants against Garrett Sim, I guess we should expect this kind of trash from you. But do us a favor and leave race out of this board, will you?
Civil Bear
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SFCityBear;842222977 said:

Most Portuguese detest being called Latino.

Even if that is true (I'd like to see that survey), it doesn't change that they are of Latin descent.
Richard_Lee
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Thanks, KoreAmBear, appreciate the below!

But not necessary, really. I have actually worked very hard over the years to lose the "guru" label on the basketball board. I hated that whenever I posted about basketball, people assumed I had inside information and would ask what the coaches were thinking or who was going to get offered a scholarship. I had no such inside information and repeated that. It seemed like no one listened.

So every candid post I made, people assumed there was something behind it. I couldn't be a smart-ass. I couldn't be flippant. I couldn't just write whatever I wanted. I didn't like that.

So go the other way. Go over the top. Put all the internal filters down. Call out people for being dumb. Get in arguments. Make fun of below average, disloyal basketball players like Garrett Sim.

I like it much better now. I can pretty much say whatever I want now, and there are no repercussions to anyone but me (or at least this online moniker). And that's the way it should be.


KoreAmBear;842223082 said:

A bit of pontification, but generally valid, hard to argue with points. Come on, Richard's comments were about as harmful or harmless as the "White Guys Can't Jump" title of the movie and the movie's premise. If you want to be this vehement about it, then you probably have a problem with every comedian (black, white or otherwise) making fun of white guys playing basketball or with their dance moves. Look I know dude is a lightning rod, but I assure you most of it is schtick. He is a good fan. He has gone to every football game this year, including all road games (he may have missed that fun rainy Oregon game). He's stuck it out for home games when the opposing fans and seagulls outnumbered ours. I know, he deserves some of the crap he gets, but easy on the venom man.
Bobodeluxe
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Civil Bear;842225854 said:

Even if that is true (I'd like to see that survey), it doesn't change that they are of Latin descent.


My mother's family. It was always "Rodregues, WITH AN S."

Frigging Portugies. : )
BearyWhite
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KoreAmBear;842223082 said:

A bit of pontification, but generally valid, hard to argue with points. Come on, Richard's comments were about as harmful or harmless as the "White Guys Can't Jump" title of the movie and the movie's premise. If you want to be this vehement about it, then you probably have a problem with every comedian (black, white or otherwise) making fun of white guys playing basketball or with their dance moves. Look I know dude is a lightning rod, but I assure you most of it is schtick. He is a good fan. He has gone to every football game this year, including all road games (he may have missed that fun rainy Oregon game). He's stuck it out for home games when the opposing fans and seagulls outnumbered ours. I know, he deserves some of the crap he gets, but easy on the venom man.
OK, so he's a douche who goes to every game. He's still a douche. Maybe he's a great guy in the stadium but here he's an ass, and when he gets backed into a corner he tries to say it's just schtick. Is it better that he's an actual prick or just acting like one -- for years on end! -- to get people mad? Isn't that the behavior of a prick? Over on the football board he just claimed that this "boy our white players are bad" tangent was simply trolling to get everyone riled up. I want to call bullsh!t on that claim, but does it matter? Either way he's a prick.
BearyWhite
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Richard_Lee;842225856 said:

Thanks, KoreAmBear, appreciate the below!

But not necessary, really. I have actually worked very hard over the years to lose the "guru" label on the basketball board. I hated that whenever I posted about basketball, people assumed I had inside information and would ask what the coaches were thinking or who was going to get offered a scholarship. I had no such inside information and repeated that. It seemed like no one listened.

So every candid post I made, people assumed there was something behind it. I couldn't be a smart-ass. I couldn't be flippant. I couldn't just write whatever I wanted. I didn't like that.

So go the other way. Go over the top. Put all the internal filters down. Call out people for being dumb. Get in arguments. Make fun of below average, disloyal basketball players like Garrett Sim.

I like it much better now. I can pretty much say whatever I want now, and there are no repercussions to anyone but me (or at least this online moniker). And that's the way it should be.
"My commentary was so insightful everyone thought I had inside information! The praise got so overwhelming I finally had to act like an assho!e and limit my analysis to simplistic racial stereotypes! I'm so much happier now!"

Yeah. OK.
SFCityBear
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KoreAmBear;842223082 said:

A bit of pontification, but generally valid, hard to argue with points. Come on, Richard's comments were about as harmful or harmless as the "White Guys Can't Jump" title of the movie and the movie's premise. If you want to be this vehement about it, then you probably have a problem with every comedian (black, white or otherwise) making fun of white guys playing basketball or with their dance moves. Look I know dude is a lightning rod, but I assure you most of it is schtick. He is a good fan. He has gone to every football game this year, including all road games (he may have missed that fun rainy Oregon game). He's stuck it out for home games when the opposing fans and seagulls outnumbered ours. I know, he deserves some of the crap he gets, but easy on the venom man.


Probably way too much pontification. It is a bad habit, and I am working on it. For a long time, I didn't go see "White Men Can't Jump", because I was offended by the title itself, which is racist. I remember thinking at the time that Hollywood would never make a movie entitled "Black Men Can't Swim", no matter what the premise was or how humorous the movie was. I felt we were just replacing one racism with another racism, and we are still doing that even today. I'm not sure if I ever saw the entire movie, or just clips, which were entertaining. Would you recommend it?

I don't know how you can compare the movie to Richard's comments in this thread. There is NOTHING humorous about his comments, IMO. He may have been trying to be humorous about Garrett Sim, but I doubt it. Making fun of an immature kid who made a commitment to Ben Braun, and then when Braun was fired, decided to stay closer to home and play at Oregon. We don't even know how hard Montgomery pursued Sim, if at all. Sim was not a prize recruit. Instead Montgomery found Jorge, a diamond in the rough. Where was Richard Lee when players decommitted from the football program? The few Richard Lee posts I have read are just not humorous to me.

As to whether I'd have a problem with comedians making fun of white guys' movements on a dance floor or on a basketball court, I've made some funny looking moves myself in both places, and I enjoy laughing at myself. Like when I tried out for the Cal basketball team after a summer of weightlifting, and my first jumper sailed over the backboard into the seats. Everybody laughed, both black and white players, and nobody laughed harder than me. If comedians are not equally allowed to make fun of the simplistic stereotypes of other races as well, because of censorship or political correctness, then I'd have a problem. If you want to know what I think is funny about race, then go see comedian Russell Peters, an Indian guy from Canada. He makes fun of every racial and ethnic group on the planet, including his own, especially his own.

I am sure many Cal athletes and fans would appreciate Richard Lee going to all the football games, some in the rain. Someone could make a video of Richard in the rain with the seagulls, suffering through an embarrassing Cal loss. Many might laugh at such a video. Would Richard laugh at it? Would you? I hope so.

:beer:
BearyWhite
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SFCityBear;842226823 said:

Probably way too much pontification. It is a bad habit, and I am working on it. For a long time, I didn't go see "White Men Can't Jump", because I was offended by the title itself, which is racist. I remember thinking at the time that Hollywood would never make a movie entitled "Black Men Can't Swim", no matter what the premise was or how humorous the movie was. I felt we were just replacing one racism with another racism, and we are still doing that even today. I'm not sure if I ever saw the entire movie, or just clips, which were entertaining. Would you recommend it?
I think it's worth seeing. Fun movie, although while the hoops action is generally pretty good, sometimes it's over-edited a la "Air Bud" to make Wesley Snipes look better than he is.
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