We are country club school

6,322 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by Bobodeluxe
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Golf (check, men's is really good, women's decent), tennis (check, women's is very good, men's is not bad), swimming (check, really good for both genders), water polo (of course were good), rugby (bunch of gentlemen that otherwise play football at the Ivies per JC, and yes, really, really good). Football and basketball (well the women are decent, and may even prove good in the playoffs, depending on Boyd's knee).

I am surprised by how men's bb is finishing in such a deflated manner. I saw them play early and though we finally had an athletic team. I guess every team faces injuries, but the injury to Bird impacted a player who was playing great for a rookie, and a guy I really though would be a major contributor. I hope Diallo can come in and contribute Solomon numbers next year despite his relative inexperience, our rookies get more consistent, and Kreklow stays healthy (it could happen). But I think we are looking at next year unless this team finds lightening in a bottle (or whatever metaphor you want).
tsubamoto2001
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842289641 said:

Golf (check, men's is really good, women's decent), tennis (check, women's is very good, men's is not bad), swimming (check, really good for both genders), water polo (of course were good), rugby (bunch of gentlemen that otherwise play football at the Ivies per JC, and yes, really, really good). Football and basketball (well the women are decent, and may even prove good in the playoffs, depending on Boyd's knee).

I am surprised by how men's bb is finishing in such a deflated manner. I saw them play early and though we finally had an athletic team. I guess every team faces injuries, but the injury to Bird impacted a player who was playing great for a rookie, and a guy I really though would be a major contributor. I hope Diallo can come in and contribute Solomon numbers next year despite his relative inexperience, our rookies get more consistent, and Kreklow stays healthy (it could happen). But I think we are looking at next year unless this team finds lightening in a bottle (or whatever metaphor you want).


It took 4 years for Solo to do what he's doing now and you expect Diallo, who isn't as highly regarded as Solo was coming out of HS, to put up Solo senior season numbers as a freshman?

Next season really depends on whether our perimeter guys (especially Bird, Mathews, and Singer) improve significantly. And we've got to find a PG out of TW, Singer, or Rorie. Cobbs dropped 16 and 6 this season and that's going to be hard to replace. Out of the bigs, our only proven performer will be DK and that's a scary proposition. Rooks will probably start and he figures to improve, but by how much?
socaliganbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It's pretty weird how a large Ca public school can be a top tier Olympic/ Country Club school.

Of course UCLA does it all so really, we're just underperforming.
GMP
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289642 said:

It took 4 years for Solo to do what he's doing now and you expect Diallo, who isn't as highly regarded as Solo was coming out of HS, to put up Solo senior season numbers as a freshman?

Next season really depends on whether our perimeter guys (especially Bird, Mathews, and Singer) improve significantly. And we've got to find a PG out of TW, Singer, or Rorie. Cobbs dropped 16 and 6 this season and that's going to be hard to replace. Out of the bigs, our only proven performer will be DK and that's a scary proposition. Rooks will probably start and he figures to improve, but by how much?


This year started out fairly promising, and has definitely fallen off. But I would be absolutely shocked if we were better next season than we are this season. Losing a senior center and a senior PG is a tough blow. Bird would have to absolutely explode - and even then... there are too many holes. And we'd need to hope for really good health - which we mostly had this season. I just don't see it.
socaliganbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
grandmastapoop;842289649 said:

This year started out fairly promising, and has definitely fallen off. But I would be absolutely shocked if we were better next season than we are this season. Losing a senior center and a senior PG is a tough blow. Bird would have to absolutely explode - and even then... there are too many holes. And we'd need to hope for really good health - which we mostly had this season. I just don't see it.


I would also assume that teams like Utah and Colorado will be much better next year, joining other teams at the top. Way be decent enough to continue our dominance over the PNW.
OdontoBear66
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289642 said:

It took 4 years for Solo to do what he's doing now and you expect Diallo, who isn't as highly regarded as Solo was coming out of HS, to put up Solo senior season numbers as a freshman?

Next season really depends on whether our perimeter guys (especially Bird, Mathews, and Singer) improve significantly. And we've got to find a PG out of TW, Singer, or Rorie. Cobbs dropped 16 and 6 this season and that's going to be hard to replace. Out of the bigs, our only proven performer will be DK and that's a scary proposition. Rooks will probably start and he figures to improve, but by how much?


With Solo, when he is good, he is good. When he is bad he becomes whiney and he gets worse. So do I expect Diallo to match the good Solo? No. But much better when Solo goes south. So hopefully it will be consistency with Diallo that helps us forget Solo and his ups and downs. Players can look upset, but when Solo feels wronged (often) he puts on that "what me" look, followed by the long, long face and shoulder slump. Not pretty. Reminds me of a little kid after getting whupped by the neighborhood bully.
tsubamoto2001
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OdontoBear66;842289669 said:

With Solo, when he is good, he is good. When he is bad he becomes whiney and he gets worse. So do I expect Diallo to match the good Solo? No. But much better when Solo goes south. So hopefully it will be consistency with Diallo that helps us forget Solo and his ups and downs. Players can look upset, but when Solo feels wronged (often) he puts on that "what me" look, followed by the long, long face and shoulder slump. Not pretty. Reminds me of a little kid after getting whupped by the neighborhood bully.


No one knows how good Diallo will ultimately be. He could develop into a stud or just be a complete bust. If we're relying on him next season then we're probably a lower half PAC-12 team.
89Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289642 said:

It took 4 years for Solo to do what he's doing now and you expect Diallo, who isn't as highly regarded as Solo was coming out of HS, to put up Solo senior season numbers as a freshman?

Next season really depends on whether our perimeter guys (especially Bird, Mathews, and Singer) improve significantly. And we've got to find a PG out of TW, Singer, or Rorie. Cobbs dropped 16 and 6 this season and that's going to be hard to replace. Out of the bigs, our only proven performer will be DK and that's a scary proposition. Rooks will probably start and he figures to improve, but by how much?


I don't see next year being better with the loss of 2 seniors, including the only scorer on the team. Frosh coming in to a tough league? Not a recipe for success. Plus, Bird looks like a project at this point.
tsubamoto2001
How long do you want to ignore this user?
89Bear;842289701 said:

I don't see next year being better with the loss of 2 seniors, including the only scorer on the team. Frosh coming in to a tough league? Not a recipe for success. Plus, Bird looks like a project at this point.


Bird has looked lost after the injury and his game needs work, but I think it's really a confidence thing with him. Hopefully, he gets that mojo back after an offseason of work. It's probably too late to flip the switch for this season.
89Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289702 said:

Bird has looked lost after the injury and his game needs work, but I think it's really a confidence thing with him. Hopefully, he gets that mojo back after an offseason of work. It's probably too late to flip the switch for this season.


I agree that it's too late for this year. Also, his basketball instincts look terrible. Do you think that is due to missing time and not being comfortable on the court? I have no idea. I have wondered about his relationship with Cobbs as well.
tsubamoto2001
How long do you want to ignore this user?
89Bear;842289710 said:

I agree that it's too late for this year. Also, his basketball instincts look terrible. Do you think that is due to missing time and not being comfortable on the court? I have no idea. I have wondered about his relationship with Cobbs as well.


Judging from the SF Pro-Am, "Bird and Cobbs" was supposed to be a lethal combo for us this season. Unfortunately, it did not turn out that way.
socaliganbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842289641 said:

Golf (check, men's is really good, women's decent), tennis (check, women's is very good, men's is not bad), swimming (check, really good for both genders), water polo (of course were good), rugby (bunch of gentlemen that otherwise play football at the Ivies per JC, and yes, really, really good). Football and basketball (well the women are decent, and may even prove good in the playoffs, depending on Boyd's knee).

I am surprised by how men's bb is finishing in such a deflated manner. I saw them play early and though we finally had an athletic team. I guess every team faces injuries, but the injury to Bird impacted a player who was playing great for a rookie, and a guy I really though would be a major contributor. I hope Diallo can come in and contribute Solomon numbers next year despite his relative inexperience, our rookies get more consistent, and Kreklow stays healthy (it could happen). But I think we are looking at next year unless this team finds lightening in a bottle (or whatever metaphor you want).


Also good at crew.
GB54
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Games mostly played by suburban kids from good schools who parlay their expertise into admission and a first class education. We are a first class choice for such kids which is why our programs are strong
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GB54;842289745 said:

Games mostly played by suburban kids from good schools who parlay their expertise into admission and a first class education. We are a first class choice for such kids which is why our programs are strong


And this is at least one poster who is deeply conflicted about said kids getting rides (if even just partial) on the backs of labor from kids who come from backgrounds without such advantages. Yes, too much John Rawls in my impressionable youth.
KoreAmBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289711 said:

Judging from the SF Pro-Am, "Bird and Cobbs" was supposed to be a lethal combo for us this season. Unfortunately, it did not turn out that way.


I just don't think Cobbs is a great PG - and it's not his fault, it's his make up. He's good in the clutch, and would be better as a combo guard (than our primary PG). He's tried to defer a lot in games in the 1st half, so kudos to him, but you could see he had to do everything in his power to do it. If he focuses on passing, he doesn't score. When he is in scoring mode, he doesn't pass. He gets frustrated a lot and although he has gotten better and has tried to encourage his teammates, you can see he gets annoyed by Solo and others all the time (he can't help it). I don't know if Singer is the answer, but he appears to be more of a pure PG than Cobbs. Hopefully he gets better. Btw, I loved that comment by his Miami HS coach that he thought Sam last year was better than any of the Cal players last year. Goodness, this is why you don't rely on video or HS coaches to do your scouting for you. We need a floor leader out there -- a PG version of Harper Kamp. I agree, Bird just needs some confidence, and probably the ball.
socaliganbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie;842289749 said:

And this is at least one poster who is deeply conflicted about said kids getting rides (if even just partial) on the backs of labor from kids who come from backgrounds without such advantages. Yes, too much John Rawls in my impressionable youth.


Or you can't take the view that they're getting rides on the backs of their labor, Olympic talents, and accomplishments? But I do get your point from a rev sports perspective.
prospeCt
How long do you want to ignore this user?
glenn dickey, on the "orinda sports",


"Stanford's recent emphasis on bringing in top students from other countries has caused admissions standards to rise, because the size of the student body has not increased. That's put more pressure on the athletic programs.

That hasn't hurt the "Orinda sports" (tennis, golf, swimming, etc.), which are country club sports. Athletes competing in those sports usually come from a good academic background. So do women's basketball players. And college baseball has become a white sport it's hard to spot a black face at the College World Series.

But many of the top black athletes in high school do not get the kind of education that allows them to meet the rigid Stanford admissions standards. Other schools, including Cal, have remedial programs that allow them to do college work. (The Cal program is run by the university, not the athletic department, and has far more nonathletes than athletes.) But Stanford has no such program. "


http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/dickey-stanfords-success-rides-on-admissions-standards/Content?oid=2154512




"Does anyone care about Stanford basketball?"

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Does-anyone-care-about-Stanford-basketball-2819060.php
GB54
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie;842289749 said:

And this is at least one poster who is deeply conflicted about said kids getting rides (if even just partial) on the backs of labor from kids who come from backgrounds without such advantages. Yes, too much John Rawls in my impressionable youth.


I don't see it as so exploitative, e.g "backs of" It's tied to Title 9 and the rise of womens sports which overall is a good thing. I do agree that a public university should have a role of raising all boats with a particular focus on sons and daughters of parents who didn't attend college.
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
GB54;842289764 said:

I do agree that a public university should have a role of raising all boats with a particular focus on sons and daughters of parents who didn't attend college.


We will leave it at that point so as to highlight our points of agreement. I will also link this

https://preuss.ucsd.edu/

"The Preuss School UCSD is a unique charter middle and high school for low income, highly motivated students who strive to become the first in their families to graduate from college. With nearly 100 percent of our graduates going on to higher education, Preuss shapes more than minds, we shape futures."

with the ope that Cal alums with current pull with the powers that be might get inspired at their next tet-a-tet with the Chancellor. There is really no excuse for Cal not to be doing something similar.
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie;842289787 said:

We will leave it at that point so as to highlight our points of agreement. I will also link this

https://preuss.ucsd.edu/

"The Preuss School UCSD is a unique charter middle and high school for low income, highly motivated students who strive to become the first in their families to graduate from college. With nearly 100 percent of our graduates going on to higher education, Preuss shapes more than minds, we shape futures."

with the ope that Cal alums with current pull with the powers that be might get inspired at their next tet-a-tet with the Chancellor. There is really no excuse for Cal not to be doing something similar.


My brother (who played point-guard for UCSD) is the Vice-Principal at Preuss.

Presuss is repatedly named the nation's number 1 "transformative school" by Newsweek: LINK

The issue for UCSD is that very few of the Preuss kids end up going to UCSD because schools like Harvard recruit them hard with free rides.
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
calumnus;842289816 said:

My brother (who played point-guard for UCSD) is the Vice-Principal at Preuss.

Presuss is repatedly named the nation's number 1 "transformative school" by Newsweek: LINK

The issue for UCSD is that very few of the Preuss kids end up going to UCSD because schools like Harvard recruit them hard with free rides.


Kudos to your brother!!! It is one of the charities that our family supports and we think is simply fantastic.
OdontoBear66
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie;842289749 said:

And this is at least one poster who is deeply conflicted about said kids getting rides (if even just partial) on the backs of labor from kids who come from backgrounds without such advantages. Yes, too much John Rawls in my impressionable youth.


Not everything in life needs to be a balancing of scales. If advantaged kids, as you like to refer to them, perform well athletically why not reward them with a scholarship? There are a lot of parents who need that help that don't qualify as being poor.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289642 said:

It took 4 years for Solo to do what he's doing now and you expect Diallo, who isn't as highly regarded as Solo was coming out of HS, to put up Solo senior season numbers as a freshman?

Next season really depends on whether our perimeter guys (especially Bird, Mathews, and Singer) improve significantly. And we've got to find a PG out of TW, Singer, or Rorie. Cobbs dropped 16 and 6 this season and that's going to be hard to replace. Out of the bigs, our only proven performer will be DK and that's a scary proposition. Rooks will probably start and he figures to improve, but by how much?


If he was being evaluated today would likely be a four star player. He is not a slender guy like Solomom as a frosh. He is built, will likely be the most athletic big in the conference and has scary film. Does that mean he plays well and under control as a frosh, who knows? And in other posts I have said what is lacking from this team is a consistent outside scorer like Crabbe, and everyone started packing it in on defense. So yes, our perimeter guys have to pick up the offense. They also have to pick it up on defense.
Calbear94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie;842289749 said:

And this is at least one poster who is deeply conflicted about said kids getting rides (if even just partial) on the backs of labor from kids who come from backgrounds without such advantages. Yes, too much John Rawls in my impressionable youth.


There is a lot of pressure on parents of these students to donate money to the university for those sports programs, so essentially it's a 'wash'.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaliganbear;842289721 said:

Also good at crew.


just got tired of naming all the country club sports Cal excels at. Another is soccer.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Calbear94;842290019 said:

There is a lot of pressure on parents of these students to donate money to the university for those sports programs, so essentially it's a 'wash'.


some of these sports have preferred walk-on and partial scholies, so parents are picking up the tab. And the initial comment is dead on, and in the long term, I think it will be helpful, though maybe not a wash. Only golf is self-sufficient, though I believe the aquatic sports are getting close.
OdontoBear66
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842290039 said:

just got tired of naming all the country club sports Cal excels at. Another is soccer.


Not sure soccer would like to be considered a CC sport, but that is my opinion. Lot of heavy hammering and lifting there---much more than BB.

Then again if you want to do it on ethnicity, there are many, many good Latino players, and many good African American forwards/strikers.Not quite CC as you might categorize...
UrsaMajor
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rugby is also self-sufficient or close.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OdontoBear66;842290041 said:

Not sure soccer would like to be considered a CC sport, but that is my opinion. Lot of heavy hammering and lifting there---much more than BB.

Then again if you want to do it on ethnicity, there are many, many good Latino players, and many good African American forwards/strikers.Not quite CC as you might categorize...


there is more minority kids at the higher levels. But have you looked at Cal men's roster? Its almost entirely white kids from wealthy areas. There are kids from Norwalk, Oakland and San Jose (2 kids), almost all who went to sports factory/good academic Catholic High Schools (which makes wonder about the kids having some money in the family). But Newport Beach, Hillsborough, Santa Rosa, Laguna Nigel, Irvine (3 kids), Palo Alto, Castro Valley, Mission Viejo, San Clemente, Capo Beach, Dove Canyon, etc. are county club towns. You would find the same thing on the Furd, SC and UCLA rosters. The women's rosters typically do have some token minorities, but are dominated by "pony tail white girls" the kind Malcom Gladwell describes. Just look at the women's national team. This is one sport that has the ability to change demographics, though if you look at the top male league teams (at least coming out of SoCal), most of the top Latino players are not going to schools like Cal due to language issues and lack of academic performance. Girls again tend to be dominated by pony tail white girls. BTW, this also is one sport where high school doesn't matter that much, its mostly about performance in leagues.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
prospeCt;842289756 said:

glenn dickey, on the "orinda sports",


"Stanford’s recent emphasis on bringing in top students from other countries has caused admissions standards to rise, because the size of the student body has not increased. That’s put more pressure on the athletic programs.

That hasn’t hurt the "Orinda sports" (tennis, golf, swimming, etc.), which are country club sports. Athletes competing in those sports usually come from a good academic background. So do women’s basketball players. And college baseball has become a white sport — it’s hard to spot a black face at the College World Series.

But many of the top black athletes in high school do not get the kind of education that allows them to meet the rigid Stanford admissions standards. BOther schools, including Cal, have remedial programs that allow them to do college work. (The Cal program is run by the university, not the athletic department, and has far more nonathletes than athletes.) But Stanford has no such program. "


http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/dickey-stanfords-success-rides-on-admissions-standards/Content?oid=2154512




"Does anyone care about Stanford basketball?"

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Does-anyone-care-about-Stanford-basketball-2819060.php


Stanford will be raising its next class by about 10%, and has committed to increasing the size of its undergrad classes. Its been widely touted by Stanford President, not that Dickey, being a Norcal sports writer, really cares about facts. No one cares about Furd MENS basketball currently. The same could not be said for the women's program, in relative terms. And Cal doesn't want to get into a pissing contest about percentage of minorities on campus with the Furd - we won't win that argument (unless you call Asian students minorities), or look at representation on coaching staffs, particularly at the head coach level. Stanford tends to get its minority athletes from Catholic and private schools (there are exceptions for those who were watching the Super Bowl). TW, Dickey sort of implies that Furd womens' basketball is a white Orinda sport, and he might want to look at all the black faces on the Furd roster and where they are from. And at least they win in football, which one could hardly call an Orinda sport

And the reference to Ted Leland is idiotic, and classic Dickey. That is two flipping ADs and almost a decade away. Leland's view is he couldn't pay the basketball and football coaches much more than the other coaches, like golf, volleyball, etc. Dickey says this. Johnson left because LSU offered him multiples of what he was making at Furd. The rest is utter BS rationalization. Then came Bowlsby, and things changed dramatically. Furd pays its football and basketball coaches (both of them) very competitively. Have for a long time. The same goes with the current AD, who happens to be black (as our a lot of top Furd administrators). Tara makes way more than every coach at Cal other than Monty and Sonny (two white guys, as opposed to the two black head coaches at Furd). And as for the remedial program, Cal has tutors and the like, but we don't give kids high school classes other than maybe bonehead English (do we still do this?). Stanford's tutor program is very similar to Cal's. Again, WTF is Dickey talking about when he starts talking about race? Keep sticking to what sports were decades ago, when you were alive.

Final thought after reading posts on this board about attendance, people leaving early, etc. : Does anyone really care about Cal basketball?
prospeCt
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842290170 said:

TW, . ... one could hardly ... . Have for a long time.






good times, and where is piedmont in all of this ...










:Lindsay:Monty
SaintBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842289986 said:

If he was being evaluated today would likely be a four star player. He is not a slender guy like Solomom as a frosh. He is built, will likely be the most athletic big in the conference and has scary film. Does that mean he plays well and under control as a frosh, who knows? And in other posts I have said what is lacking from this team is a consistent outside scorer like Crabbe, and everyone started packing it in on defense. So yes, our perimeter guys have to pick up the offense. They also have to pick it up on defense.


Agree 100%, he is beyond oblivious about our friends on the Farm.

With Diallo, I'm afraid it's wishful thinking to imagine he could replace Solomon defensively and on the glass, much less offensively.

Diallo can come in and help us. He's long and athletic and as you say, relatively strongly built for an 18 year old. He's very raw however. He averages 11 ppg in HS and while he impacts games at that level with his shot blocking and rebounding he does not dominate. Big men take awhile to develop. I can imagine ID getting 8-12 minutes a game next year but the real help down low is going to have to come from the development of Behrens, Rooks and Kravish. And the heartbeat of the team looks likely to be our perimeter players.
Basketball Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tsubamoto2001;842289681 said:

No one knows how good Diallo will ultimately be. He could develop into a stud or just be a complete bust. If we're relying on him next season then we're probably a lower half PAC-12 team.


The production of Cobbs and Solomon will be tough to make up next year. Agree it is really possible we will be a second tier team next year and people will be calling for Monty to retire. Let's hope you can work some magic with these new kids.
OdontoBear66
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd;842290154 said:

there is more minority kids at the higher levels. But have you looked at Cal men's roster? Its almost entirely white kids from wealthy areas. There are kids from Norwalk, Oakland and San Jose (2 kids), almost all who went to sports factory/good academic Catholic High Schools (which makes wonder about the kids having some money in the family). But Newport Beach, Hillsborough, Santa Rosa, Laguna Nigel, Irvine (3 kids), Palo Alto, Castro Valley, Mission Viejo, San Clemente, Capo Beach, Dove Canyon, etc. are county club towns. You would find the same thing on the Furd, SC and UCLA rosters. The women's rosters typically do have some token minorities, but are dominated by "pony tail white girls" the kind Malcom Gladwell describes. Just look at the women's national team. This is one sport that has the ability to change demographics, though if you look at the top male league teams (at least coming out of SoCal), most of the top Latino players are not going to schools like Cal due to language issues and lack of academic performance. Girls again tend to be dominated by pony tail white girls. BTW, this also is one sport where high school doesn't matter that much, its mostly about performance in leagues.


All I can say is that I have been attending ECNL girl's soccer (which for the most part is the gold standard in club soccer) for years and there is ethnicity across the board; to the point you really become color blind to it. So for you to say it is dominated by "pony tail white girls" (can't believe this categorization---imagine the opposite), they had to survive coming up through the ranks to get where they get. Believe me the coaches love it when they get a good soccer player coupled with a good GPA, ACT, SAT. It allows them to reach for students who aren't so gifted academically (and with need) to fill out their rosters, and of course are very athletically gifted.

The most bothersome thing about your post is the type of language you use against what I would suggest is the current target of rage in our society, aka "the haves"( I use it to include rich, smart, personality gifted, whatever). It is OK to vent against "them". How about vice versa? Not so. Just seems like a lot of genuine effort is brushed off with a "she came from privilege".
MilleniaBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm expecting Monty to go small ball next year - kravish, Wallace, bird, kreklow, singer as starters with Wallace n kreklow playing PF. Matthews, Rorie, rooks, diallo, euro?, mature? off the bench. I'm not counting on rooks at all because of the foot...he is going to have a brutal summer trying to keep weight off.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.