Kidd and KJ go 1 and 2, no doubt. Then who?
I'm thinking Justin Cobbs is pretty damn high up there.

Top 5

1. Jason
2. KJ
3. Randle
4. Cobbs
5. Keith Smith

And although it may not look like it these last few games, one of only a handful of guards in Cal history to have a puncher's chance at the NBA. Keith Smith was my personal favorite behind Kidd. Boy did Keith know how to finish a drive and he had a nice stop and pop too. Extremely underrated.

KoreAmBear;842290214 said:

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1. Jason
2. KJ
3. Randle
4. Cobbs
5. Keith Smith

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You kids.

puncher's chance

BI phrase of the week

Rusty Critchfield?
Gene Ransom?
Charlie Johnson?
Phil Chenier?
Kyle Campanelli (OK, just kidding with that one)

Really, Cal basketball didn't start in the 1980s.

UrsaMajor;842290227 said:

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Rusty Critchfield?
Gene Ransom?
Charlie Johnson?
Phil Chenier?
Kyle Campanelli (OK, just kidding with that one)

Really, Cal basketball didn't start in the 1980s.

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Prentice McGruder? KJ Roberts? AJ Diggs? Martin Smith? Yup, Cal basketball didn't start for me until 1988.

ewwwwwwbakkkkaaaaa

bigcocoon007;842290239 said:

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ewwwwwwbakkkkaaaaa

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Oh yah. I would put him #6.

If this is actually about all-time greats:

Critchfield was one of Cal's all-time leading scorers and a 1st team All American in his senior year.

Ransom also a top scorer and assist man.

Chenier was all-conference and the #4 overall draft pick (played 9 years w/ the Bullets)

Sorry, KAB, but all 3 of them are a lot better than Ubaka, Smith, Roberts, etc.

Kyle!

How many other players had ever been subbed in for an inadequate Jason Kidd.

bearister;842290215 said:

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And although it may not look like it these last few games, one of only a handful of guards in Cal history to have a puncher's chance at the NBA. Keith Smith was my personal favorite behind Kidd. Boy did Keith know how to finish a drive and he had a nice stop and pop too. Extremely underrated.

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+1 JC is underrated. Has enough size and is very strong.

id throw jorge and richard midgley into the discussion. jorge was a tweener point guard, originally recruited as a point guard.

midgley was a good but very unspectacular player

as far as history is concerned, id have to guess that pete newell coached a good point guard or two that might be better than any of our modern day suggestions.

UrsaMajor;842290258 said:

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If this is actually about all-time greats:

Critchfield was one of Cal's all-time leading scorers and a 1st team All American in his senior year.

Ransom also a top scorer and assist man.

Chenier was all-conference and the #4 overall draft pick (played 9 years w/ the Bullets)

Sorry, KAB, but all 3 of them are a lot better than Ubaka, Smith, Roberts, etc.

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Was Chenier a point guard?

What about Charles Johnson?

KoreAmBear;842290214 said:

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1. Jason
2. KJ
3. Randle
4. Cobbs
5. Keith Smith

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This a pretty good modern-day list. Remember that, back in the day, the differentiation between a 1 and a 2 were less distinct.

And yes, Ayinde Ubaka would be a close #6 on this list. Hope, down the road, Rorie climbs up in here somewhere.

beelzebear;842290265 said:

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+1 JC is underrated. Has enough size and is very strong.

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I'm not sure that, since the Arizona game, Cobbs is underrated anymore. He is highly rated.

Hate to mention this right before his last home game, but right now I think his "pure point guard" abilities, i.e. making the players around him better, are being called into question again.

Still a fine player, though, no doubt. I will be a bit teary-eyed when he walks out tomorrow, for sure.

Phil was definitely a PG. Charlie was more of a combo guard.

anwar mcqueen

UrsaMajor;842290258 said:

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If this is actually about all-time greats:

Critchfield was one of Cal's all-time leading scorers and a 1st team All American in his senior year.

Ransom also a top scorer and assist man.

Chenier was all-conference and the #4 overall draft pick (played 9 years w/ the Bullets)

Sorry, KAB, but all 3 of them are a lot better than Ubaka, Smith, Roberts, etc.

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Chenier averaged 17 ppg in a 10 year NBA career; KJ 18 ppg in a 13 year career; and Kidd 12 ppg in a 18 year career (forward Lamond Murray averaged 11 ppg in a 12 year career)

bearister;842290327 said:

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Chenier averaged 17 ppg in a 10 year NBA career; KJ 18 ppg in a 13 year career; and Kidd 12 ppg in a 18 year career (forward Lamond Murray averaged 11 ppg in a 12 year career)

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Chenier would be top 5 for me. Different time and different game, but Phil was awesome.

David Liss

wallyball2003;842290363 said:

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Chenier would be top 5 for me. Different time and different game, but Phil was awesome.

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"Different time and different game" = the days when there were fewer NBA teams and thus a higher concentration of talent, players more fundamentally sound and disciplined, had higher basketball IQs, and defense was not just for the play offs. Don't for a moment think Chenier wouldn't be every bit as successful, if not more so, in the modern game. It's like comparing the Stones, the Beatles, the Doors, and the Who to the sh*t bands Jimmy Fallon has on every night (l like the Avett Brothers and the Roots, however).* NOW STAY OFF MY LAWN!


*Lebron James and Kevin Durant excepted from this rant.

bearister;842290327 said:

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Chenier averaged 17 ppg in a 10 year NBA career; KJ 18 ppg in a 13 year career; and Kidd 12 ppg in a 18 year career (forward Lamond Murray averaged 11 ppg in a 12 year career)

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I wonder if Glenn Burke would have made that list had he not signed with the Dodgers.

gobears725;842290280 said:

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id throw jorge and richard midgley into the discussion. jorge was a tweener point guard, originally recruited as a point guard.

midgley was a good but very unspectacular player

as far as history is concerned, id have to guess that pete newell coached a good point guard or two that might be better than any of our modern day suggestions.

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Pete Newell had some good guards, but as true point guards, he had only three, Al Buch, Bobby Wendell, and Bernie Simpson. Al Buch was the best on-ball defender I have ever seen at Cal. In '59, Cal ran a two man, full-court press with Buch and Fitzpatrick for much of the game. Buch ran the Bear offense to perfection, an offense which generated wide open shots, He averaged over 9 points per game, but could score 20 when needed. He made 1st team all-conference.

The next season, Bobby Wendell took over as the point guard. Bobby was short at 5-8, and was the best ball handler I have seen at Cal. A very strong dribble, and NOBODY could steal the ball off Bobby's dribble. He was a good defender. That Cal team averaged 6 turnovers for the entire season! Wendell ran the offense, but was not a scorer. It was odd, you could watch Bobby knock down long jumpers all day in practice, but in the game, he couldn't do it. In the NCAA Finals, Ohio State left Bobby alone, much like teams did to Tyrone Wallace a lot last season, and Bobby was forced to shoot a lot and missed most of them. Newell said at the time that if had one more jump shooter, he felt the Bears could have beaten OSU and won a second title.

Bernie Simpson was a reserve on the '59 Cal NCAA Champs. He was entirely a defensive specialist. He could run the team at the point, but his value was to come in and help get stops. He was probably close to the equal of Al Buch on defense, and the full-court press with the two of them was devastating. In those days, the teams of the Midwest and East were mostly fast break teams. That is, until they played against Cal's full court press, and Cal's transition defense. Bernie rarely scored a point, or he might have gotten some more playing time.

:gobears:

G Wendell was better passing it to the corner to F Earl Schultz who could knock down the long ones.

Here is my list:

1. Jason Kidd, 1st team All-American as a sophomore, honorable mention AA as a frosh
2. Al Buch, led Bears to NCAA title in 1959, and to NCAA Western Regional Finals (Final 8) in '58, 1st team All-Conference
3. Kevin Johnson, honorable mention AA for two years
4. Phil Chenier, First team All-Conference
5. Russ Critchfield, 1st team AA, honorable mention AA, two-time All-Conference
6. Bob Matheny, Won PCC South, 3rd team AA, two-time All-PCC South
7. Keith Smith, All-Conference
8. Jerome Randle, PAC10 Title, two-time 1st Team All-PAC10

To be a great point guard, you need to be really good at decisions with the ball, be good at dribbling and passing without making too many turnovers, be good at passing to the open man, be good at scoring the ball if needed, be good at directing the offense, be a leader, and be really good at point of attack defense. (In other words shutting down the opponent's point guard.) To be a good point guard, you need to have most of those qualities, but maybe not all. In any case, to be good or great, you have to make your teammates better.

I hesitate to rank Justin Cobbs just yet, because his career is not over. He is a strong offensive player. He has not so far to me, anyway, looked like he would pass anyone on the above list, but he is one of the better point guards we have had, for sure. I'd hate to think what the last three years would have been like without him.

:gobears:

SFCityBear;842290529 said:

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.....Bernie Simpson was a reserve on the ’59 Cal NCAA Champs. He was entirely a defensive specialist. He could run the team at the point, but his value was to come in and help get stops. He was probably close to the equal of Al Buch on defense, and the full-court press with the two of them was devastating. In those days, the teams of the Midwest and East were mostly fast break teams. That is, until they played against Cal’s full court press, and Cal’s transition defense. Bernie rarely scored a point, or he might have gotten some more playing time.:gobears:

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Bernie's seats were by mine in Harmon. Bernie is a great guy. Circa 1963 or 1964 when he was the coach at St. Ignatius one of his guards had a brain aneurysm and died on the court after in bounding the ball in a game against O'Dowd. I was at the game.

KoreAmBear;842290229 said:

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Prentice McGruder? KJ Roberts? AJ Diggs? Martin Smith? Yup, Cal basketball didn't start for me until 1988.

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Don't mean to insult you, or them, but these guys are nowhere near Cobbs.
Thanks for contributing, though.

Tonight was a pretty good reason why I created this thread at all. Did you see how Justin was The One with the ball in crunch time over and over again. Everyone knows it. Players that own the ball like that are both rare and special. JC is rare and special.
21 points. Money from the line when it counted. W.

SFCityBear;842290529 said:

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Pete Newell had some good guards, but as true point guards, he had only three, Al Buch, Bobby Wendell, and Bernie Simpson. Al Buch was the best on-ball defender I have ever seen at Cal. In '59, Cal ran a two man, full-court press with Buch and Fitzpatrick for much of the game. Buch ran the Bear offense to perfection, an offense which generated wide open shots, He averaged over 9 points per game, but could score 20 when needed. He made 1st team all-conference.

The next season, Bobby Wendell took over as the point guard. Bobby was short at 5-8, and was the best ball handler I have seen at Cal. A very strong dribble, and NOBODY could steal the ball off Bobby's dribble. He was a good defender. That Cal team averaged 6 turnovers for the entire season! Wendell ran the offense, but was not a scorer. It was odd, you could watch Bobby knock down long jumpers all day in practice, but in the game, he couldn't do it. In the NCAA Finals, Ohio State left Bobby alone, much like teams did to Tyrone Wallace a lot last season, and Bobby was forced to shoot a lot and missed most of them. Newell said at the time that if had one more jump shooter, he felt the Bears could have beaten OSU and won a second title.

Bernie Simpson was a reserve on the '59 Cal NCAA Champs. He was entirely a defensive specialist. He could run the team at the point, but his value was to come in and help get stops. He was probably close to the equal of Al Buch on defense, and the full-court press with the two of them was devastating. In those days, the teams of the Midwest and East were mostly fast break teams. That is, until they played against Cal's full court press, and Cal's transition defense. Bernie rarely scored a point, or he might have gotten some more playing time.

:gobears:

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Thanks for the always interesting history lesson!