I assume if Artis comes to Cal he'd have to sit out a year, unless getting kicked out of Oregon constitutes hardship. If so we would have 7 juniors in 2015-16 and I think the 6 we already have in that class presents a balance problem. Just from basketball considerations I'd pass on Artis in favor of a 2015 recruit.

SFCityBear;842321962 said:

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About sixty posts ago, a few of us fans tried in vain to turn this thread away from sexual assault and selling shoes more toward a discussion of the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player. We failed miserably.

I'd like to give it another shot, so here goes: Aside from his alleged behavior, why on earth would we need or want Dominic Artis on our Cal basketball team?

Here are Artis' cumulative statistics from two years at Oregon:

Minutes per game: 20.5
Points per game: 6.4
Assists per game: 2.7
Rebounds per game: 2.0
Turnovers per game: 1.9
Steals per game: 1.3

FG%: 36%
3PT%: 33%
FT%: 68%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.4

None of these statistics are something to brag about for a guy averaging 20 minutes of play every night. The shooting percentages tell me that he doesn't shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in any either case. His free throw percentage indicates that he may not be a very good shooter, period. His assist totals are pretty weak for a point guard.

On the subjective level, I was impressed with Artis in a SF ProAm game. He came in late in the second half and took over the game, scoring about 20 points in 10-12 minutes. He is flashy, and fast, but he is a playground ballplayer with little instincts for running a team or running the point, or passing the ball, IMO. He showed that at Oregon, where he could not adjust to D1 ball. Altman didn't know what to do with him, so he replaced Artis with a journeyman type point guard in Loyd, and the offense worked better, and so did the defense, in the few Oregon games I watched on TV.

One basketball reason for taking Artis would be his high ranking as a recruit, #62 on the ESPN 100 list, and a 4 star recruit by others. Perhaps the highest rated PG in the west, except that in my opinion, he's not a PG. He is a SG in a small PG body. He was 5'-11", 165 lb as a freshman, but I see he has now blossomed into 6'-1", 186 lb. He wasn't that big the last time I saw him. He has had some good D1 games at Oregon, but has been very inconsistent. I think we would be taking a big chance signing him, in the basketball sense, because he may just be yet another highly rated recruit who has not performed well in two years at the D1 level. Maybe he would improve, and maybe he would not. I'd rather use his scholarship for a transfer with better credentials or a high school recruit who has yet to play in college. I've seen Artis, and I'm much more interested in seeing what Singer will do this year, and seeing what Chauca can do. My money is on them. At some point in a player's career, one can make a judgment whether a player has lived up to his recruit ranking. So far, Artis has not done so.

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I'm choosing not to discuss Artis much because there is no indication there is a serious interest here. That being said, I don't think discussing the sexual assault instead of him as a basketball player is failing. While I think that a message board is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss the relative skills of prospects, at the end of the day, we have hired a coach whose job it is to have the expertise to make those decisions. We have no say, nor should we. However, as alums I do believe we have a say in the values and ethics that apply to our sports programs. So, honestly, I think if we are to have a discussion at all here, the sexual assault is a more appropriate. If a prospect does not meet certain standards, it doesn't matter what his statistics are.

As I said, I don't think the issue is ripe for discussion, so I haven't discussed it.

Regarding basketball, I just have to say that, while I tend to agree that he hasn't demonstrated enough, I'm quite curious about your opinion here. When I look at the statistics you provided for Artis' last two years, I can't help but compare them to the following statistics:


Minutes per game: 21.8
Points per game: 4.8
Assists per game: 1.8
Rebounds per game: 2.5
Turnovers per game: 1.0
Steals per game: .67

FG%: 33.1%
3PT%: 32.3%
FT%: 73%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.7

That is two years of statistics for another player. Care to guess who? It's a guy you like a lot! Trying to figure out why Artis' stats are not something to brag about, but these apparently are. Do these shooting percentages tell you "that he doesn't shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in either case."?

Wondering if you think we'd want the above player playing for us if he was available. The inconsistency of opinion about two guys with very similar stat lines seemed interesting to me.

bluesaxe;842321866 said:

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I'm sure you would muddle on by.

You did ignore all of my substantive points, by the way.

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In the post to which I responded you said you thought it would be a PR disaster for the program.

To that, I say who knows? None of us knows the unfolding of events that would occur if in fact Artis came to Cal. None of us knows what Martin is thinking about Artis, what demands Martin might make on Artis in order for Dominic to play at Cal, what Martin may or may not have learned bout Artis recently.

It is unnecessary for me to engage in speculation to counter yours.

If you made more substantive points in previous comments on this thread, good for you. I happen not to remember them.

Go Bears!

south bender;842322156 said:

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In the post to which I responded you said you thought it would be a PR disaster for the program.

To that, I say who knows? None of us knows the unfolding of events that would occur if in fact Artis came to Cal. None of us knows what Martin is thinking about Artis, what demands Martin might make on Artis in order for Dominic to play at Cal, what Martin may or may not have learned bout Artis recently.

It is unnecessary for me to engage in speculation to counter yours.

If you made more substantive points in previous comments on this thread, good for you. I happen not to remember them.

Go Bears!

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I did. Sign of age if your short-term memory is going.

I will simply stand by my own opinion, which is that nothing you mentioned matters. Taking a guy even Dana Altman had to drop would be a fool move. He may well have learned a lesson, or two lessons since there were two separate issues, but I don't really care about that. Mistakes like that come with a price, and I don't think a new coach coming into this program would be wise to put basketball first when Cal is already facing issues of athletes and sexual abuse (again). In fact, I think it would be really stupid.

bluesaxe;842322161 said:

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I did. Sign of age if your short-term memory is going.

I will simply stand by my own opinion, which is that nothing you mentioned matters. Taking a guy even Dana Altman had to drop would be a fool move. He may well have learned a lesson, or two lessons since there were two separate issues, but I don't really care about that. Mistakes like that come with a price, and I don't think a new coach coming into this program would be wise to put basketball first when Cal is already facing issues of athletes and sexual abuse (again). In fact, I think it would be really stupid.

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Rather than short term memory going, perhaps it is simply that I am less impressed with your arguments than you think I ought to be. And often am a little put off by your cold, unforgiving, self assured opinions.

Go Bears!

i think i can go with whatever the staff decides on this one. theres people there that probably know artis pretty well along with an old teammate in bird. if they decided to go with him id be ok, and if they decided otherwise id be ok with it too. the fans will get over it and the part of the school that hates sports will always dig up something to complain about. just add this to the list i guess if it happens. but theyre going to hate sports regardless so i dont see that changing anything.

I hope they don't take him because then this thread will die faster.

antipattern;842322178 said:

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I hope they don't take him because then this thread will die faster.

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Lmao!

Has it occurred to anyone that Martin may simply be talking to Artis to provide him with some support and guidance, perhaps even at the request of an Artis friend (Bird?) or AAU coach or the like? Whatever your opinion of Artis and what he did, it is easy to imagine that he is mortified by the situation he has found himself in (or you might say created for himself). Martin may see some upside in showing support for a kid who is contrite ( if that is the case) and has local connections.

Bearprof;842322203 said:

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Has it occurred to anyone that Martin may simply be talking to Artis to provide him with some support and guidance, perhaps even at the request of an Artis friend (Bird?) or AAU coach or the like? Whatever your opinion of Artis and what he did, it is easy to imagine that he is mortified by the situation he has found himself in (or you might say created for himself). Martin may see some upside in showing support for a kid who is contrite ( if that is the case) and has local connections.

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+1

Bearprof;842322203 said:

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Has it occurred to anyone that Martin may simply be talking to Artis to provide him with some support and guidance, perhaps even at the request of an Artis friend (Bird?) or AAU coach or the like? Whatever your opinion of Artis and what he did, it is easy to imagine that he is mortified by the situation he has found himself in (or you might say created for himself). Martin may see some upside in showing support for a kid who is contrite ( if that is the case) and has local connections.

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This was mentiond, and ignored, at the beginning of the thread.

Noe, about Benghazi.

SFCityBear;842321962 said:

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About sixty posts ago, a few of us fans tried in vain to turn this thread away from sexual assault and selling shoes more toward a discussion of the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player. We failed miserably.

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That's called attempting to highjack a thread. If you want to discuss the merits of Dominic Artis as a basketball player then why not start your own thread?

Bobodeluxe;842322205 said:

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This was mentiond, and ignored, at the beginning of the thread...

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+1

My bad, as they say. This thread is so long and tedious that even if I had read it I would have forgotten by now!

OaktownBear;842322089 said:

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I’m choosing not to discuss Artis much because there is no indication there is a serious interest here. That being said, I don’t think discussing the sexual assault instead of him as a basketball player is failing. While I think that a message board is a perfectly appropriate place to discuss the relative skills of prospects, at the end of the day, we have hired a coach whose job it is to have the expertise to make those decisions. We have no say, nor should we. However, as alums I do believe we have a say in the values and ethics that apply to our sports programs. So, honestly, I think if we are to have a discussion at all here, the sexual assault is a more appropriate. If a prospect does not meet certain standards, it doesn’t matter what his statistics are.

As I said, I don’t think the issue is ripe for discussion, so I haven’t discussed it.

Regarding basketball, I just have to say that, while I tend to agree that he hasn’t demonstrated enough, I’m quite curious about your opinion here. When I look at the statistics you provided for Artis’ last two years, I can’t help but compare them to the following statistics:


Minutes per game: 21.8
Points per game: 4.8
Assists per game: 1.8
Rebounds per game: 2.5
Turnovers per game: 1.0
Steals per game: .67

FG%: 33.1%
3PT%: 32.3%
FT%: 73%
Assist/Turnover Ratio: 1.7

That is two years of statistics for another player. Care to guess who? It’s a guy you like a lot! Trying to figure out why Artis’ stats are not something to brag about, but these apparently are. Do these shooting percentages tell you “that he doesn’t shoot much better inside the arc than he does outside of it, which is not very good in either case.”?

Wondering if you think we’d want the above player playing for us if he was available. The inconsistency of opinion about two guys with very similar stat lines seemed interesting to me.

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Touch! An interesting take and a provocative post. I’ll do my best to explain my opinions.

I did not mean to imply that we shouldn’t discuss the alleged sexual assault when discussing Artis. It is very important. However, we know nothing about it other than the statements of the parties involved, and no charges have been filed. The alleged assault has nothing to do with basketball, and this is a basketball forum. If we are considering recruiting Artis, then I thought we might discuss the whole person, which includes both his character and his basketball ability, not just his alleged crime. Any coach who considers signing Artis will no doubt be weighing both of these attributes. After all, the first thing any coach looks at is can the kid play basketball? If he can, then you look at his other qualities.

I agree with you that we have no say whatever on deciding on which recruits to pursue, but I am curious as to how you think we as alums “have say in the values and ethics that apply to our sports programs.” I don’t think we have much of a say, if any, in that either. Has any alum ever been able to influence the athletic department on whether a player should be dismissed or suspended for conduct, or been able to influence the department on whether a coach should be allowed to break or be fired for breaking NCAA recruiting rules? Maybe an alum with a great deal of money to donate could garner such influence. But the average alum has no influence, unless he bands together with thousands of others to create a groundswell of public opinion.

As to the player whose stats you compared to Artis, which was Ricky Kreklow, I have never had the occasion to “brag” about Ricky’s stats. I liked Kreklow a lot, but his stats were something I rarely wrote about. I made several predictions about Kreklow before he ever played a game for Cal, some of which came true, and some didn’t. In terms of stats, I was very disappointed in his missing so many games, his shooting, his free throws, and especially his rebounding. I was very satisfied with his defense, his leadership, his inspiration to his teammates, his willingness to sacrifice his body. I said he could score 8-10 pts per game, and get 6 rebounds, and he didn’t. He brought a lot of intangibles to the team, and we are going to miss that.

The comparison of Kreklow to Artis is not quite fair to either one. Kreklow was recruited as a SG, and at Cal played as a SF and a PF. Artis is a PG. For a PG, assist and turnover stats are more important. For a forward like Kreklow, rebounding stats are more important. It would be fairer to compare Artis’ stats to other PAC 12 point guards, and against them, his stats were very lacking. Artis was a top 100 recruit, #62, rated the #5 PG in his class, and a 4 star recruit, while Kreklow was not a top 100 recruit, and was only a 3-star recruit. So based on recruit rankings, Artis underperformed his ranking by more than Kreklow. Both players were injured and missed games, but in two years, Artis played in 53 games, but Kreklow played in only 33 games. On the other hand, Kreklow had two years of experience in D1 programs under his belt, before he played a game at Cal, while Artis had no such experience before he went to Oregon, so Kreklow in theory should have done better. When I said that the FG% stats for Artis show that he doesn’t shoot any better inside the arc or outside the arc, I think that is true, and it is true for Kreklow’s stats as well. Kreklow had no dependable mid range jumper, and did not finish well at the basket.

I don’t see any inconsistency in my opinion, since I never bragged about Kreklow’s stats, which were not very good. I did spend a fair amount of time defending Kreklow against criticism that I felt was unfair. What I did brag about was his selflessness, his willingness to sacrifice for team, his heart, his aggressiveness, and his leadership and his teamwork. Those are qualities I have not seen in the few times I saw Artis play. Kreklow was a starter at Cal for the last several games of his career, playing ahead of the far more talented and athletic Jabari Bird. Artis was a bench player in the rotation for Oregon, playing behind a player who was less athletic and less skilled in Jon Loyd.

:beer:

Given the quiet, I presume this rumor has died. If not, new developments should end the speculation. Artis was suspended for at least 4 years from the University of Oregon for the sexual assault - along with Austin and Dotson. http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/06/24/3452314/university-of-oregon-basketball-players/

This guy could be the next coming of Chris Paul and I don't see the administration approving his enrollment at UC Berkeley

ncbears;842327842 said:

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Artis was suspended for at least 4 years from the University of Oregon for the sexual assault - along with Austin and Dotson.

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That's an interesting tidbit. Seems the academic administration up in Ducky land either figured out they do have some tools to control Knight's mercenary coaches, or they just grew some cojones. Would've loved to have been a fly on the wall when Phil and Dana each found out the school had suspended these 3 from attending classes out past the expiration of their remaining eligibility. Then again I'm sure they're both reasonable guys who don't mind having their hands forced, so they were probably calm and uneventful conversations.

OldBlue1999;842327852 said:

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That's an interesting tidbit. Seems the academic administration up in Ducky land either figured out they do have some tools to control Knight's mercenary coaches, or they just grew some cojones. Would've loved to have been a fly on the wall when Phil and Dana each found out the school had suspended these 3 from attending classes out past the expiration of their remaining eligibility. Then again I'm sure they're both reasonable guys who don't mind having their hands forced, so they were probably calm and uneventful conversations.

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The vast Nike/Oregon PR machine demanded this result. Nothing more.