http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/02/college-basketball-march-madness-one-semester-sport

hmmm.

Dont like this idea

oskigobears;842462143 said:

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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/02/college-basketball-march-madness-one-semester-sport

hmmm.

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it's not a bad idea; i like the notion of kids getting more time in class,, time to just be kids.

but in an arguably semi-professional sport totally dominated by tv revenue, shucks, NICE has about as much chance flying as snowballs spontaneously falling from the heavens during fourth of july fireworks precisely spaced to the beat of the nat'l anthem.

smh;842462150 said:

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it's not a bad idea; i like the notion of kids getting more time in class,, time to just be kids.

but in an arguably semi-professional sport totally dominated by tv revenue, shucks, NICE has about as much chance flying as snowballs spontaneously falling from the heavens during fourth of july fireworks precisely spaced to the beat of the nat'l anthem.

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That was the most direct, concise and cogent post I've ever read from you. Are you ok?

if you want to increase basketball attendance, then some delay of the start of the season would do that because there will be less competition from football (college and pro)

hard to get any attention when you start in mid-november

I'd also be fine with moving it to spring, which will allow a full semester for players to be just students. Much better and more practical than the freshmen ineligible idea

oskigobears;842462143 said:

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http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/02/college-basketball-march-madness-one-semester-sport

hmmm.

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This came up before on BI. I still agree with it for the academic reasons stated, and I couldn't care less about interactions with pro sports.

Interesting Zaninovich should mention "The regular season is facing a relevancy issue." His own conference is part of that problem with its stupid conference tournament.

NYCGOBEARS;842462155 said:

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That was the most direct, concise and cogent post I've ever read from you. Are you ok?

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i messed up, sorry ncyb.

Makes way too much sense. Put it in place along with no frosh players. The more separation you can get from the NBA, the better. The default minor league stuff has to be squashed a bit, or it might as well be a pro league.

Also mid-November is a terrible start time for the players and fans. If anyone is really honest, no one except the hardcore fans (or very hoops-centric teams like Duke, Gonzaga, etc.) watches college hoops until Jan or the start of conference, minus a few Xmas tourneys. The shadow of the NFL is long and dark. Might as well time things between Jan and April, as spring training begins with the final four still early in baseball season and before summer.

beelzebear;842462176 said:

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Makes way too much sense. Put it in place along with no frosh players. The more separation you can get from the NBA, the better. The default minor league stuff has to be squashed a bit, or it might as well be a pro league.

Also mid-November is a terrible start time for the players and fans. If anyone is really honest, no one except the hardcore fans (or very hoops-centric teams like Duke, Gonzaga, etc.) watches college hoops until Jan or the start of conference, minus a few Xmas tourneys. The shadow of the NFL is long and dark. Might as well time things between Jan and April, as spring training begins with the final four still early in baseball season and before summer.

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It would also presumably increase student attendance; since games wouldn't coincide with finals/x-mas break.

It always sucks when we have a big time non conf opponent in December because we don't get the students to show up for those games.

Too much money involved from TV networks (ESPN, Fox, CBS) who demand content for this to fly. Would NCAA and schools have the fortitude to buck their sugar daddies? I'd bet unlikely.

beelzebear;842462176 said:

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Makes way too much sense. Put it in place along with no frosh players. The more separation you can get from the NBA, the better. The default minor league stuff has to be squashed a bit, or it might as well be a pro league.

Also mid-November is a terrible start time for the players and fans. If anyone is really honest, no one except the hardcore fans (or very hoops-centric teams like Duke, Gonzaga, etc.) watches college hoops until Jan or the start of conference, minus a few Xmas tourneys. The shadow of the NFL is long and dark. Might as well time things between Jan and April, as spring training begins with the final four still early in baseball season and before summer.

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Agreed, this should have been done a long time ago. The travel schedule for basketball is ridiculous and especially hurts Cal where professors are less accommodating. Give the kids Fall quarter/semester to be full time students and get required classes out of the way. Extend the season into Spring--then seniors can finish school before turning their attention to their pro prospects.

TV should not be an issue and if anything, is a reason to make the change. TV does not need Fall programming--end of baseball and college and pro football are plenty. Winter/Spring is where the gap is anyway.

teknofreek;842462273 said:

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Too much money involved from TV networks (ESPN, Fox, CBS) who demand content for this to fly. Would NCAA and schools have the fortitude to buck their sugar daddies? I'd bet unlikely.

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If the season were shifted further into the Spring, TV would be very happy. Plenty of content in the Fall. Not so much in the Spring.

What is the objective? Is it to improve TV ratings? Improve the academic focus of men's basketball? Improve the 'relevancy' of men's bball? Improve attendance? Create a PR piece that makes it look like the P12 conference is concerned with Student Athletes more than TV contracts?

My cynical take is that it's the last! There have been a number of 'Let's fix basketball' ideas floated the last few years. Well - what's broken?

From my blue-hued crotchety perspective, it has all devolved into keeping up with the Jones'. We need a bigger Arena, we need a bigger TV contract, we need higher rated recruits (note - I said higher rated, not better - there is a difference).

And while we're at it - get those dam~ kids off my lawn!!

:rant

Why it won't happen:

In order for this to happen, one of two things needs to occur: either you shorten the season by 1/2 dozen games or so, or--as he suggested--push the Final Four into May. The latter is a non-starter because it conflicts with the NBA playoffs and that would be no go for ESPN, CBS, and the true rulers of college basketball (along with Nike and Adidas).

One other comment about the article: I love it that the P12 deputy commish is suggesting this as a cure for declining attendance, without mentioning the OBVIOUS reason: the TV saturation of college hoops and the prostitution of the game for television.

The one problem I see with this proposal is getting the marketing people to let go of the phrase "March Madness". Although, if they kept it, it'd eventually be cool: We'd know how it came about, but the young'uns wouldn't. It'd be like, now, when you ask a kid why the Lakers are called the Lakers and you get that blank stare. BTW, why is the Utah Jazz called that? Is there really a rich jazz tradition in Utah?!?

the franchise started as the New Orleans Jazz, then moved but kept the name.

UrsaMajor;842462465 said:

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the franchise started as the New Orleans Jazz, then moved but kept the name.

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...sort of like that Minnesota team that moved west...

UrsaMajor;842462465 said:

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the franchise started as the New Orleans Jazz, then moved but kept the name.

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Yeah, well, not being a young'un myself, I actually knew the answer to my own question.

NVGolfingBear;842462480 said:

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...sort of like that Minnesota team that moved west...

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Any other sports franchises with out of place names? Utah Jazz, L.A. Lakers and maybe the L.A. "trolley" Dodgers? The Grizzlies was a better name for Vancouver, BC than Memphis, but is not like there are tigers in Detroit or Cincinnati.

L.A. has a lot of the "not from here" franchises and names: L.A. Clippers is off as L.A. harbor (though the largest in the country) was not built until after the era of clipper ships. No kings in L.A., but L.A. Kings was the original name.

I think the Clips were originally in San Diego.....could be wrong though

L.A. also had the first hockey Sharks, from the WHL. I remember going to a game as a kid.

bearmanpg;842462717 said:

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I think the Clips were originally in San Diego.....could be wrong though

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Yes, they started as the Buffalo Braves and changed their name to Clippers when they moved to San Diego.

beelzebear;842462724 said:

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L.A. also had the first hockey Sharks, from the WHL. I remember going to a game as a kid.

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L.A. also had the Seals, which I always thought was a great name for an ice hockey team. There is a Penguins, but you'd think there would be a Polar Bears ice hockey team.

Philadelpia, Kansas city, Oakland athletics.
Pheonix, Arizona cardinals.
Baltimore, Indy colts.
Boston, Atlanta braves.
Oh god, the list is way too long.

Perhaps you are talking only about franchises whose mascot refers to the home area specifically, not just a generalized mascot, and then stayed with them when they moved. My above examples don't fit that bill....

concordtom;842462793 said:

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Philadelpia, Kansas city, Oakland athletics.
Pheonix, Arizona cardinals.
Baltimore, Indy colts.
Boston, Atlanta braves.
Oh god, the list is way too long.

Perhaps you are talking only about franchises whose mascot refers to the home area specifically, not just a generalized mascot, and then stayed with them when they moved. My above examples don't fit that bill....

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Could be wrong here (and did not look it up) but didn't the Atlanta Braves move from Boston via Milwaukee? Spahn and Sain and pray for rain?

Back to the original topic, I'd be okay with May Madness as a replacement.
And, sure, why not let kids take a heavier load in fall semester and then go light in spring, rather than spilt down the middle?
If you F with the NBA draft, so be it. They'd push their dates back.
If you make more TV revenue, great!
Move the Hawaii, Puerto Rico and other preseaon tourneys to over Xmas-new years break.
Get alumni to be on campus once for football in fall, then the full spring for hoops.

concordtom;842462793 said:

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Philadelpia, Kansas city, Oakland athletics.
Pheonix, Arizona cardinals.
Baltimore, Indy colts.
Boston, Atlanta braves.
Oh god, the list is way too long.

Perhaps you are talking only about franchises whose mascot refers to the home area specifically, not just a generalized mascot, and then stayed with them when they moved. My above examples don't fit that bill....

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We were talking about franchises that referred to their home, such as the Minneapolis Lakers and New Orleans Jazz, that moved to places like L.A. or Salt Lake City but kept their old franchise name even though it does not make sense in their new location.

concordtom;842462800 said:

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Back to the original topic, I'd be okay with May Madness as a replacement.
And, sure, why not let kids take a heavier load in fall semester and then go light in spring, rather than spilt down the middle?
If you F with the NBA draft, so be it. They'd push their dates back.
If you make more TV revenue, great!
Move the Hawaii, Puerto Rico and other preseaon tourneys to over Xmas-new years break.
Get alumni to be on campus once for football in fall, then the full spring for hoops.

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Agreed. As it is now, basketball players have no quarter/semester without basketball travel as a major scheduling conflict. Winter break for the pre-season tournaments would be awesome.

teknofreek;842462273 said:

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Too much money involved from TV networks (ESPN, Fox, CBS) who demand content for this to fly. Would NCAA and schools have the fortitude to buck their sugar daddies? I'd bet unlikely.

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UrsaMajor;842462446 said:

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Why it won't happen:

In order for this to happen, one of two things needs to occur: either you shorten the season by 1/2 dozen games or so, or--as he suggested--push the Final Four into May. The latter is a non-starter because it conflicts with the NBA playoffs and that would be no go for ESPN, CBS, and the true rulers of college basketball (along with Nike and Adidas).

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I like the idea of a single semester basketball season for academic reasons. Players could really benefit from one semester w/o any travel which would allow them to load up on harder classes. Would be great for schools like Cal IMO and for players who take academics seriously. That is what the NCAA/P5 should be pushing - making it easier for players to actually attend class and then graduate. With summer school and one semester of uninterrupted class, almost every player could take their more difficult classes outside of the traveling season. If players are making 'sufficient progress' to a degree on a yearly basis, an can take a reduced load during their season, I think that fits the goals of the NCAA and student athlete much better than having two semesters interrupted.

On top of the season running in December and conflicting with finals (though schools like Cal do not schedule games then, but I'm sure having 5-6 games beforehand, and often a big trip to a neutral site tourney, does not help getting done with the semester), the NCAA Tournament as it currently is scheduled conflicts with a lot of finals for schools on a quarter system. So moving it back (maybe 3 weeks?) would eliminate that, while also prevent conflicts with spring semester finals.

Now for the money/power part -

I get that a may final four might not go over well with ESPN, but the NCAA tournament actually gets better rating than the NBA playoffs. CBS might be willing to play. It would only compete with the NBA conference semi finals. The Final Four draws around 10-12 million viewers for the round of 4 games and 20 million viewers for the championship game. The tournaments early round average ~ 10 million viwers, and 13 million when in primetime (that is across 4 networks though since the game run concurrently). The NBA might get 3-4 million viewers for a conference semifinal. ESPN would not have the MBB regular season up against their NBA playoffs games since the NBA playoffs start mid April. Fox and CBS do not have any of their own content that would conflict. The conference networks would benefit because it would spread out their 'must see' content. And there is plenty of NFL in December on FOUR nights a week - nothing like that to compete against in march. Turner would be the only network with conflicts (NBA on TNT).

But this year the NBA playoffs start April 18th. The 1st/2nd/3rd round games are 4 weeks before that. The NCAA could push back the tournament 3 weeks and basically still avoid any conflicts that would hurt the NCAA's bottom line. The Final Four would dominate the NBA's first round opening games, but the other rounds would not go up against the playoffs. Would three weeks be enough to clear enough time to start completely after finals? Not quite - Cal started regular games 5 weeks before the end of finals. BUT I see potentially 3 weeks of savings possible:
1)consider there are two weeks (vs Furd) in the regular season where Cal did not play a weekend opponent - play someone on both of those, and that's one week saved.

2)Get rid of the 2 game exemption for a neutral site tournament and that's a week saved (we played alcorn and kennesaw state... what a waste anyways).

3) And consider that Cal played one game during finals week (on Friday), not two, so if the NCAA reduced the number of allowable games from 29 to 28, that could be essentially a week saved. So you only have to do 2 of these 3 and move the tourney back 3 weeks to clear the fall semester out of conflict with competition.

As for the exhibition games, they are just that - since the team is practicing in the fall, it would not be that harmful to have a few.... and why not schedule them on football satudays in November? Or one could still have an exempt like tourney on Thanksgiving weekend. But no other games until after finals. Lots of options to protect the students.


Also, Basketball TV money for the P5 schools is not all that great because it's watered down by the NCAA. If the P5 really wanted to force the issue, they could essentially threaten to leave the NCAA and start their own tournament (P5 didn't explicitly do this with CFB, but the writing was on the wall - no 'full cost' and the NCAA could very well be left behind since CFB is the cash cow and already did not rely on the NCAA for $$$). Even with a much smaller TV contract, the P5 schools would end up with MORE money because the NCAA keeps a lot to themselves and gives a lot to smaller conferences. (An aside, if the current court cases regarding player 'pay' go against the NCAA and amateurism as set up now, a two tier system could force the split-off of the P5 and cripple the NCAA and force mid major schools to make really difficult choices). CBS pays far more for NCAA basketball (through the tourney) than any other party - I'd even wonder if they have an out clause if some conferences withdraw? They'd be left with a garbage tourney if they don't.

Good points from Colorado. Interesting to consider the potential power play from within the P5 conferences and the overall NCAA!
I think you are counting up your dates a bit wrong though. Don't look at it from Cal's scheduling of their preseason. Just look at it from when the NCAA says you can officially begin and then how many days until championship Monday. Then slide that same time frame back x # of weeks. I think the majority of schools have finals right before Xmas, and so I would start the season immediately after that. Perhaps it's as late as Dec 20. That might be tough, bc lots of kids want to spend Xmas with their parents/families and so you are basically saying the can't. Maybe practices can start 1 month later, from early Nov to early Dec. but first games cannot start until Dec 28. I'll go look it up and play with it...

NCAA moves start of college basketball practices up two*weeks
news item posted May 3, 2013

College basketball teams will be allowed to begin practice two weeks earlier thanks to new NCAA legislation.

During the Division I Board of Directors meeting Thursday it was decided that teams can begin practice 42 days before the first game of the regular season.

Teams aren’t allowed to play official games (exhibition games don’t count, obviously) until the second Friday of November at the earliest, and the rules change means that teams can begin practice in late-September.

During that six week period teams will be allowed up to 30 practices, and the change moves men’s basketball rules in this area closer to the practice rules for women’s basketball teams (which are allowed begin practice 40 days before their first game).

The original proposal allowed practice to start 40 days before the first game, but the Council members adjusted the rule to accommodate for Midnight Madness events often planned around the first men’s basketball practice. Because a significant number of teams start playing games on the first day the rules allow it (the second Friday in November), the first day for practice would fall on a Sunday, which is not conducive to Midnight Madness events. Expanding the time period to 42 days allows the first practice to be held on a Friday.

Under the old rules teams were allowed 24 practices over a 30-day period, but that changes with the new legislation. Also of note is the removal of the rule prohibiting teams from holding their first practice of the season before 5 p.m. local time.

Will that change lead to another change to “Midnight Madness” festivities? Probably not. Unless a school happens to be on fall break, it would be tough to schedule a midday event given the need for both the players and student body as a whole to attend class.

But with recent ideas in college basketball such as playing on an aircraft carrier or on a military base, it wouldn’t come as a surprise if some enterprising athletic department came up with something to take advantage of the rule change.

concordtom;842463153 said:

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I think you are counting up your dates a bit wrong though. Don't look at it from Cal's scheduling of their preseason. Just look at it from when the NCAA says you can officially begin and then how many days until championship Monday. Then slide that same time frame back x # of weeks. I think the majority of schools have finals right before Xmas, and so I would start the season immediately after that. Perhaps it's as late as Dec 20. That might be tough, bc lots of kids want to spend Xmas with their parents/families and so you are basically saying the can't.

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Almost all teams play around Christmas now though. Maybe not on Christmas, but near enough that I don't think kids can always go home. The point I was making with using Cal's schedule is that the NCAA has more weeks than necessary allocated to the regular season. Play 2 games a week every week and the season can be shorter. I have no problem with keeping the season with more time off, but that would push the tourney back a week or two. That might still be OK with the NCAA, but not some TV partners (but again who knows what the contract actually dictate?). Actually one thing I just noticed is that CBS has the Masters on April 11-12 this year. They would NOT be interested in having the NCAA 2/3 rounds that weekend. Hmm. If one starts the April 18th, that means Final Four on the weekend of May 2nd. Getting really close to finals for some schools. So for the short term, it might be a holding pattern. The P5 schools are going to be really up against it with the lawsuits so anything they can to show they are making life better for and appealing to TRUE students would be good. NBA enjoys a huge gift from the NCAA right now too. They could also throw the NCAA a bone (or help themselves really) and not schedule against a later final four (other rounds would be harder, but not sure the NCAA would care as much).

concordtom;842463154 said:

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Teams aren’t allowed to play official games (exhibition games don’t count, obviously) until the second Friday of November at the earliest, and the rules change means that teams can begin practice in late-September.

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This year, the 2nd weekend in november was 5 weeks before the end of finals. I don't think they can push the NCAA tournament back 5 weeks as it will run into finals in the spring. Three weeks back wouldn't be near finals (but it would conflict with the masters), 4 weeks would be close, but I think doable. So a slightly more compressed schedule (or just shorter) is needed... but it wouldn't too hard to do that.

Here's a good calendar link, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_season

First practice was on Oct 3 2014
First game was on 2nd Friday, November 14 2014
First tourneys were ranging from Nov 20-29
Championship Monday will be April 6 2015

Thus, if you schedule so the tourneys can be from Dec 22 - Jan 2... Hmmm.
The NCAA may not like this bc we already have so much Bowl revenue at that time. They would be competing with themselves, no?
If you push this tourneys back into Jan, there may not be much interest in them. Right now, people get back to work. But, maybe... Maybe these tourneys start Jan 10.

Another thought, angle, I had going was it would be not right to have a big time tourney right out of the gate. So, allow teams to have some early games before finals, but force them to take a no games 10-day break during their declared "finals window" and then they can be better prepared for a later Xmas-New Years true start. So, for instance, if no tourneys until after Xmas, and a school has finals Dec 14-18 2015, force (no games) break from Dec 8-18, but allow max of 2-3 games during the about 10 days prior to that. So, first games Friday Nov 27 2015. At any rate, some policy which says you cannot play more than 3 (?) games prior to Xmas, and you MUST take a 10-day finals break.
Otherwise, everything would be pushed back one month.

You say NBA playoffs start April 18? Great. The NCAA tournament is just starting then and so you iverlap with the first round. Nobody cares about that anyways...

Man, too many issues to sort thru without a white board. You make good ones and we'd have to draw it all out.
I like the idea of lengthening the season, but restricting games from a university declared 10 day finals stretch, and having the season begin in earnest after finals (Xmas break). Perhaps that is unrealistic bc kids and coaches are all going to be going as hard as they can to prepare for season start, regardless. Maybe just keep the same start but push the season end back 2-3 weeks by imposing a longer finals week break? time to be a student before finals?

Generally speaking, college hoops shouldn't be afraid of the NBA and should make moves to distance itself from it The NBA does nothing for college hoops except use it as a default minor league. The more separation college hoops can get from the NBA, the better. Really the NCAA gains little by conforming to NBA needs. Seriously, screw the NBA playoffs. The first two rounds are garbage, most of the time. There's enough "brand" for the NCAA to pull away.

At issue is the tournament is the NCAA's big money maker and they don't want to crap on that. Totally understandable but right now there's basically three seasons in college hoops; pre-conference "fattening" season, conference play and the NCAAs. In reality the average fan doesn't really start watching college hoops until Feb, and finally gets into it during the tournament.

So the next question, what's the competition in May? Golf and early baseball?