bearister;842596996 said:

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Until he gains weight, it is going to be interesting if Ivan will out finesse players his height that outweigh him by 25 to 30 pounds like Bill Russell did. Bill more than held his own with Wilt, who outweighed him by 55 pounds.

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I certainly get your point about Russell versus Chamberlain. However, to say Russell "more than held his own" is a little over the top. In almost every matchup, Russell complemented a team that was far superior to Wilt's. Simply playing Wilt close to even was enough. Russell has said as much himself. And not only did Russell give away the 55 pounds that you mention, he must have given away about 6" in height. I saw many of their matchups. When they stood next to each other for the opening tap, I was always amazed at how Wilt towered above Bill.

No one really held his own against Wilt, that is, the Wilt of his prime

south bender;842597976 said:

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I certainly get your point about Russell versus Chamberlain. However, to say Russell "more than held his own" is a little over the top. In almost every matchup, Russell complemented a team that was far superior to Wilt's. Simply playing Wilt close to even was enough. Russell has said as much himself. And not only did Russell give away the 55 pounds that you mention, he must have given away about 6" in height. I saw many of their matchups. When they stood next to each other for the opening tap, I was always amazed at how Wilt towered above Bill.

No one really held his own against Wilt, that is, the Wilt of his prime

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I'm jealous, SB.
Okay, so having seen them all, who is your all time best starting center on your all time best fantasy team?
This is an ongoing debate.
Wilt?
Kareem?
Shaq?
Other?

Who are your starting five plus 3 off the bench rotation?

south bender;842597976 said:

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I certainly get your point about Russell versus Chamberlain. However, to say Russell "more than held his own" is a little over the top. In almost every matchup, Russell complemented a team that was far superior to Wilt's. Simply playing Wilt close to even was enough. Russell has said as much himself. And not only did Russell give away the 55 pounds that you mention, he must have given away about 6" in height. I saw many of their matchups. When they stood next to each other for the opening tap, I was always amazed at how Wilt towered above Bill.

No one really held his own against Wilt, that is, the Wilt of his prime

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Wilt certainly outscored Russell, by a huge margin.

concordtom;842598445 said:

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I'm jealous, SB.
Okay, so having seen them all, who is your all time best starting center on your all time best fantasy team?
This is an ongoing debate.
Wilt?
Kareem?
Shaq?
Other?

Who are your starting five plus 3 off the bench rotation?

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An impossible question. But certainly Shaq merits no consideration. I like Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem in no particular order. All at their peak. Walton would be in this group, had he been healthy.

I'll have to go back and watch game tape of Walton in Portland. By the time I saw him, he was a recycled cheerleader for Boston. I think he had come back from a few season on IR or something. I recall Portland winning it all with him in the middle but wasn't watching games by then.

How about:
C: wilt
PF: Russell
SF: bird/lebraun
SG: Jordan
PG: magic
Sub1: Kobe
Sub2: Kareem/Olajuwon
Sub3: Nash/curry

bearister;842596996 said:

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Until he gains weight, it is going to be interesting if Ivan will out finesse players his height that outweigh him by 25 to 30 pounds like Bill Russell did. Bill more than held his own with Wilt, who outweighed him by 55 pounds.

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Rabb doesn't look like so much of a finesse player to me. He looks very strong and aggressive. I think he can handle the Poetls, Parkers, and Tarczewskis of the PAC12. Rabb already has many of the qualities of a Bill Russell, in terms of knowing where to go, how to position himself to defend or rebound, and what to do with the ball when he gets it. He's also an unselfish player, as was Russell.

In a videotaped conversation between Wilt and Russell, Wilt stated that even though game programs often listed him at or near 275 pounds, that was not true. Wilt said that he played at about 320 pounds in his prime, and Russell agreed with Wilt that it was true. So that would mean Russell at 215 pounds was giving up over 100 pounds to Wilt!

south bender;842597976 said:

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I certainly get your point about Russell versus Chamberlain. However, to say Russell "more than held his own" is a little over the top. In almost every matchup, Russell complemented a team that was far superior to Wilt's. Simply playing Wilt close to even was enough. Russell has said as much himself. And not only did Russell give away the 55 pounds that you mention, he must have given away about 6" in height. I saw many of their matchups. When they stood next to each other for the opening tap, I was always amazed at how Wilt towered above Bill.

No one really held his own against Wilt, that is, the Wilt of his prime

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In the same conversation between Wilt and Russell that I referred to in the above post, the subject came up as to whether Russell's teammates were superior to Wilt's, so any comparison between the two wasn't really valid. Russell said he felt that Wilt's teammates were really good players, so the criticism was not warranted. Wilt then said that the difference between the two teams was that Wilt's teammates made him a better player, but that Russell made his Celtic teammates better players.

Bearprof;842598448 said:

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Wilt certainly outscored Russell, by a huge margin.

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With respect, the difference in individual point totals for Wilt and Russell didn't seem to be relevant for Russell and his coach, Red Auerbach, in terms of winning a basketball game, according to their statements.

I once went to a game at the Cow Palace between The Warriors and the Celtics. Wilt came into that game averaging 45 points per game. Before the game, the Chronicle had an article on an interview with Russell. He said coach Red Auerbach knew that Russell would take care of the rebounding , the post defense, and starting the Celtic fast break, but he would always tell Russell that he needed to score 12-13 points for the Celtics to win, so that is what Russell did, and seldom more than that. Russell said that Auerbach figured that if Russell could hold Chamberlain to 6-7 points below his season average, that the Celtics could win. So he tried to do that, too.

A friend and I bought general admission tickets, but then we snuck into courtside seats behind one basket. Both Russell and Chamberlain played the full 48 minutes, and watching them jockey and and feint for position all game long was incredible. Like South Bender, seeing the two men up close, you could not help but be impressed with the sheer size, strength, speed, and finesse of Wilt, matched against the brilliant defensive play by the much smaller man, Russell. In the end, Russell held Chamberlain to 39 points, and the Celtics won by a point or two.

Well, I am not basing my perceptions/memories on the difference in points. Rather, on the difference in teams, including the coach.

It takes nothing away from Russell to note the dominance of Wilt.

Imagine Philadelphia with Russell, Boston with Wilt. No contest.

SFCityBear;842598596 said:

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With respect, the difference in individual point totals for Wilt and Russell didn’t seem to be relevant for Russell and his coach, Red Auerbach, in terms of winning a basketball game, according to their statements.

I once went to a game at the Cow Palace between The Warriors and the Celtics. Wilt came into that game averaging 45 points per game. Before the game, the Chronicle had an article on an interview with Russell. He said coach Red Auerbach knew that Russell would take care of the rebounding , the post defense, and starting the Celtic fast break, but he would always tell Russell that he needed to score 12-13 points for the Celtics to win, so that is what Russell did, and seldom more than that. Russell said that Auerbach figured that if Russell could hold Chamberlain to 6-7 points below his season average, that the Celtics could win. So he tried to do that, too.

A friend and I bought general admission tickets, but then we snuck into courtside seats behind one basket. Both Russell and Chamberlain played the full 48 minutes, and watching them jockey and and feint for position all game long was incredible. Like South Bender, seeing the two men up close, you could not help but be impressed with the sheer size, strength, speed, and finesse of Wilt, matched against the brilliant defensive play by the much smaller man, Russell. In the end, Russell held Chamberlain to 39 points, and the Celtics won by a point or two.

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No argument from me. I had always heard that despite the scoring differences, Russell more than held up his own against Wilt and his teams. I recall Russell's story relating how he would hold back his very best defensive moves against Wilt until the game was in crunch time, when he would deploy them to make the key stops when it really counted.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/c/wilt_chamberlain_vs_bill_russell.htm

The true measure of Russell to his team was the number of NBA Championships the Celtics won, including those over Wilt and the Warriors. That differential is the key.

puget sound cal fan;842600283 said:

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The true measure of Russell to his team was the number of NBA Championships the Celtics won, including those over Wilt and the Warriors. That differential is the key.

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+1. Before Auerbach snookered St. Louis into trading Bill prior to Russell's first NBA season, the Celtics were an entertaining team, without titles however.

At the same time that does not prove his superiority to Wilt.

puget sound cal fan;842600283 said:

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The true measure of Russell to his team was the number of NBA Championships the Celtics won, including those over Wilt and the Warriors. That differential is the key.

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Do you think it unlikely that the Celtic's would have won those championships if they had Wilt instead?

Civil Bear;842600391 said:

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Do you think it unlikely that the Celtic's would have won those championships if they had Wilt instead?

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The average height of the good folks in Boston would now be a half inch or so more.

Bobodeluxe;842600404 said:

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The average height of the good folks in Boston would now be a half inch or so more.

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I love it!

Bobodeluxe;842600404 said:

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The average height of the good folks in Boston would now be a half inch or so more.

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Are you sure you are not really Bonobodeluxe?

mikecohen;842600551 said:

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Are you sure you are not really Bonobodeluxe?

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Make love, not war.

☮