hesitation move is one of the most lethal in basketball
surprised it's not a bigger part of many players' game

Very interesting

maybe I should only post on the insider board. then you never have to read another post of mine again

yeah yogi--knock off the personal stuff---

...and why has no other big man honed the most deadly shot in basketball, the Jabbar Sky Hook.

bearister said:

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...and why has no other big man honed the most deadly shot in basketball, the Jabbar Sky Hook.

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Because the practice time that it takes to perfect the skyhook would take away from the valuable dunk practice time.

also-----the sky hook is a lot easier if you are seven foot three like big Lew. actually, there's no difference between a regular hook and a sky hook. a hook is a hook. I'm five foot six inches--if I played against third grade CYO kids, my hook would look like a sky hook too.

Thanks for posting this. I have heard about Trae Young's amazing numbers, but I haven't really had the time to follow college hoops this year, with the exception of Cal and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Pac 12.

Is he considered a sure-fire star at the next level and a top 2 or 3 pick this year?

In the clip, I was impressed by his vision. Passes like Jason Kidd. And then there's the scoring. However, I could picture him not being able to get off too many of those outside shots, with an NBA defender guarding him.

What say the rest of you?

helltopay1 said:

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also-----the sky hook is a lot easier if you are seven foot three like big Lew. actually, there's no difference between a regular hook and a sky hook. a hook is a hook. I'm five foot six inches--if I played against third grade CYO kids, my hook would look like a sky hook too.

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Not buying this. Jabbar spent thousands of hours perfecting it. I read about it in his book about his friendship with Wooden. For 20 years it was game over in any game where Kareem's team needed 2 points to win and his teammates had time to get him the ball. It was goal tending to block it. It remains the most money shot in history.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/news/why-the-skyhook-isnt-a-part-of-todays-game-195220557.html

http://www.espn.com/nba/features/kareem

MoragaBear said:

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Kareem's sky hook was different than the typical hook shot of the day. He'd get one leg up and do a little hop on his plant leg when he'd release the shot, hence the name sky hook.

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Virtually no help defense. In today's game, there are guys who can very well both double team and them close-out on the temporarily open guy to whom Kareem would often have to pass to -- and/or the whole defense would be capable of shifting to have someone close enough to bother that guy receiving the pass from Kareem - or to get in the lane enough to disrupt passes to a cutter. Defenses are so much more sophisticated now than in those days. Not meaning to say that any defense is perfect, especially against a great athlete such as Kareem. But those shots were un-stoppable because he just had to beat one guy.

mikecohen said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Kareem's sky hook was different than the typical hook shot of the day. He'd get one leg up and do a little hop on his plant leg when he'd release the shot, hence the name sky hook.

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Virtually no help defense. In today's game, there are guys who can very well both double team and them close-out on the temporarily open guy to whom Kareem would often have to pass to -- and/or the whole defense would be capable of shifting to have someone close enough to bother that guy receiving the pass from Kareem - or to get in the lane enough to disrupt passes to a cutter. Defenses are so much more sophisticated now than in those days. Not meaning to say that any defense is perfect, especially against a great athlete such as Kareem. But those shots were un-stoppable because he just had to beat one guy.

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Back then, only the Celtics were allowed to play zone.

Teams doubled Kareem frequently--he usually passed out of them (the Lakers had 5-6 players who had been the #1 pick in thir draft)--in the video you are seeing the shots he took--ie, the times there was no help defense.

So who do you take as your All-Time Dream Team starting center?

If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

Kyle Kuzma actually has a baby sky hook. I say the baby sky hook because it is more of a running hook like the one Magic did against three Celtics in the Finals. Kareem's sky hook was a post move, whereas most guys who do a one footed hook shot these days seem to do it facing up and driving. Post up hooks tend to be of the jump hook variety off two feet.

OneKeg said:

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If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

concordtom said:

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OneKeg said:

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If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

---

If longevity isn't a factor, Bill Walton is my center. The guy made everyone around him better. (I guess Russell did, too, but I never really saw him play. It's a generational thing.)

Big C said:

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concordtom said:

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OneKeg said:

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If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

---

If longevity isn't a factor, Bill Walton is my center. The guy made everyone around him better. (I guess Russell did, too, but I never really saw him play. It's a generational thing.)

---

Unfortunately, I *just* missed Walton's Trailblazer's days. He was merely a role player when I recall him with the Celtics.

My thinking around style has evolved on this as Curry has revolutionized the game. As Stephen A. was saying on a clip I saw recently, never before has there been a player who you think is a threat to score as soon as he crosses half-court. He causes defenses the extend more than any player ever has, creating space for the other 4 players. Imagine MJ facing a spread floor. Imagine Kareem being allowed to shoot his skyhook with no double-team.

In the past, I focused on centers and slashers. Now, I'm wanting to spread the floor, recognizing:
* A 3-pt shot at 42% success rate is equivalent to 63% from inside the line. Thus, Curry and Durant (both 90% FT and Durant shooting 3's at 42% this season, at 6'11".) Both are great "teammates" who could get along with difficult guys Jordan/Kobe/Lebron. Durant's height means he can defend inside but draw opponent bigs out of the paint - I like that.

1) Curry
2) Jordan
3) Durant
4) Lebron
5) Olajuwon

6) Kareem
7) Kobe
8) hmmm?

A's to your ?'s:

* Guys who can't make FT's are off my team.
Wilt 51% career FT
Russell 56% FT, and
Shaq 52.7% FT.
I think all those players are susceptible to the Hack-a-Suck strategy, so not on this team. Sad, because they were great.

* Kareem is one of my heroes, but like the joke on the movie Airplane, I do recall him not getting up and down the court REGULARLY! Thus, I start Olajuwon, who can run, score, defend. Both my Centers shot FT about 72% career with season highs of 78%.

* No Magic or pre-3FG era guards on this team - they couldn't make 3's. Curry makes more FT's at a higher clip than anyone, and can handle all much PG ball handling duties as you need. Yes, he's weaker on D, a dent in this dream-team armor but I'm betting that his 3% and floor-spreading will help teammates more than he gives up on D.

* Jordan/Kobe/MJ: all can dribble the ball up the court, defend extremely well, penetrate 1v1, score anywhere on the floor. Versatility supreme.

* One slot open. Do I take a defensive PG (but who can't shoot 3's? A great defensive player, another 3FG shooter? I can't decide. What does this team need?

concordtom said:

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OneKeg said:

---

If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

---

That team is shooting deficient if we're using today's rules. Assuming we're talking about guys in their primes, I go with Bill Walton at center, Larry Bird, Kevin Durant, Lebron James and Magic Johnson, with Steph Curry, David Robinson and Kevin Garnett off the bench. My starters are all 6'8" or taller and fast, great passing all around, and shooting everywhere except for Magic.

Your rules have an inconsistency. You can't play 90's style bully ball in today's game.

concordtom said:

---

OneKeg said:

---

If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

---

The only shocker with Red's list is that he picked MJ over JoJo White. Then his list would be all Celtics.

Big C said:

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concordtom said:

---

OneKeg said:

---

If he's going to be surrounded by average NBA players, I might take Kareem or Wilt. If the teammates are dream-teamers, superb scorers all, I might take Bill Russell. Put Lebron at stretch 4, Jordan at 2, 2 other DTers at 1 and 3 and go with a killer "small" lineup.

(Assuming today's rules of course).

---

Thx.

My rules have always been:
1) Today's rules, today's refs.
2) Take any player in their prime (not a longevity award).
3) Must be able to beat any other team thrown at you by any other drafter, whether it be fastbreak ball, bully ball, or any other style you might face.
4) Draft 8 guys, 5 starters and 3 off the bench you can rotate to deal with different styles, foul trouble, regular rest required.

An associate who is the son of a friend of Red Auerback told me (circa 2005) he discussed it with Red and Red picked:
1) Cousy
2) Jordan
3) Bird
4) McHale
5) Russell

(He was a sales guy and so might have been blowing smoke up my tail, but I always though it funny...)

---

If longevity isn't a factor, Bill Walton is my center. The guy made everyone around him better. (I guess Russell did, too, but I never really saw him play. It's a generational thing.)

---

One thing about the comparison: Russell was defense without peer, but less than great offense. Walton was great offense. I don't remember anything particular about his defense.

concordtom said:

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Big C said:

---

If longevity isn't a factor, Bill Walton is my center. The guy made everyone around him better. (I guess Russell did, too, but I never really saw him play. It's a generational thing.)

---

Unfortunately, I *just* missed Walton's Trailblazer's days. He was merely a role player when I recall him with the Celtics.

---

Though I do have a couple of these 1976 Topps (large format) cards in some box tucked away.



Well, that won't work. Google Images has taken down the View Image button. Some lawsuit with Getty Images apparently to blame. Damn, that's a big loss.

Here's the link (how pedestrian...): https://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-77-Topps-57-Bill-Walton-Portland-Trail-Blazers-Basketball-Card-/232515916195

bluesaxe said:

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That team is shooting deficient if we're using today's rules. Assuming we're talking about guys in their primes, I go with Bill Walton at center, Larry Bird, Kevin Durant, Lebron James and Magic Johnson, with Steph Curry, David Robinson and Kevin Garnett off the bench. My starters are all 6'8" or taller and fast, great passing all around, and shooting everywhere except for Magic.

Your rules have an inconsistency. You can't play 90's style bully ball in today's game.

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No Jordan? Damn! That's a first.

Well, you could try to play bully ball, just might not be terribly effective:

1) Magic
2) Lebron
3) Dennis Rodman
4) Marques Johnson
5) Shaq

That's one bruising squad.

mikecohen said:

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One thing about the comparison: Russell was defense without peer, but less than great offense. Walton was great offense. I don't remember anything particular about his defense.

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I always have a big question about Bill Russell.
Yes, he won 11 titles. But there were not very many great centers (queue SFCity) in the 60's. These days, there are multiple 7 footers on every roster. And multiple 6'10" PF's, with 6'8" SF's to boot.

I don't think Russell would be nearly (not by a long shot) as successful today.
Kevin Garnett vs Bill Russell - a wash?

# of teams during Russell's career:
56-57: 8
57-58: 8
58-59: 8
59-60: 8
60-61: 8
61-62: 9
62-63: 9
63-64: 9
64-65: 9
65-66: 9
66-67: 10
67-68: 12
68-69: 14

I'm not saying he was no good, not at all. I often pick him on my team as a defensive PF. I just can't stand the terrible FT shooting of him, Shaq, Wilt - 3 of the VERY best big men ever.

Again,I take Olajuwon for today's game. He can defend, score, hit FT's at 20% better clip, run the lanes (so could Russell) and do all the switching D that could be required with today's game (so could Russell). I guess I'm saying I take Olajuwon because he can do everything Russell could, and more. Hmmm. Yeah, I'm good with that.

Garnett was and Durant is basically a 7 foot guard.

mikecohen said:

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One thing about the comparison: Russell was defense without peer, but less than great offense. Walton was great offense. I don't remember anything particular about his defense.

---

Walton was an excellent defender.

concordtom said:

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bluesaxe said:

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That team is shooting deficient if we're using today's rules. Assuming we're talking about guys in their primes, I go with Bill Walton at center, Larry Bird, Kevin Durant, Lebron James and Magic Johnson, with Steph Curry, David Robinson and Kevin Garnett off the bench. My starters are all 6'8" or taller and fast, great passing all around, and shooting everywhere except for Magic.

Your rules have an inconsistency. You can't play 90's style bully ball in today's game.

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No Jordan? Damn! That's a first.

Well, you could try to play bully ball, just might not be terribly effective:

1) Magic
2) Lebron
3) Dennis Rodman
4) Marques Johnson
5) Shaq

That's one bruising squad.

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Today's game though, you're going to need your second unit ready to play early because of foul trouble and you would get blown out just for lack of shooting. No Jordan because it's today's rules and I want length and speed combined, great shooting and passing, and not iso plays. I would choose him if I had one more roster spot. I didn't pick the best individual players, just the best collection of players I thought would work as a team to beat any other combination playing today's game.

On your other post's comment re Russell, he went head up against a Wilt Chamberlain in his prime and Wilt would have dominated today's league even though he couldn't shoot because he was so big, strong and fast. Defensively I'd put him against anyone. You can argue all day long which of them won their many head to head matchups, but that fact alone tells me he would be a force today. Of course, my position is if you use today's rules and officiating, the old players get the benefit of today's full-year training too. The only reason I chose Walton and Robinson over Wilt is the ability to shoot from outside a few feet.

bluesaxe said:

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mikecohen said:

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One thing about the comparison: Russell was defense without peer, but less than great offense. Walton was great offense. I don't remember anything particular about his defense.

---

Walton was an excellent defender.

---

Yes, Walton was an excellent defender, rebounder and passer. He actually wasn't known too much as a scorer (his 44 pt. outburst in the NCAA final game -- his junior year at UCLA -- not withstanding), but he could score when called upon. If you were looking for a center to play "winning basketball", he was your guy... somebody who would fit right in on today's GS Warriors.

If I had to identify a "signature move" for Walton, it would be igniting the fast break with a perfect outlet pass, after a great defensive rebound or maybe a blocked shot.

Big C said:

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bluesaxe said:

---

mikecohen said:

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One thing about the comparison: Russell was defense without peer, but less than great offense. Walton was great offense. I don't remember anything particular about his defense.

---

Walton was an excellent defender.

---

Yes, Walton was an excellent defender, rebounder and passer. He actually wasn't known too much as a scorer (his 44 pt. outburst in the NCAA final game -- his junior year at UCLA -- not withstanding), but he could score when called upon. If you were looking for a center to play "winning basketball", he was your guy... somebody who would fit right in on today's GS Warriors.

If I had to identify a "signature move" for Walton, it would be igniting the fast break with a perfect outlet pass, after a great defensive rebound or maybe a blocked shot.

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Walton's passing on the current Dubs squad would be adding nitro to an explosive group. he'd love it..

concordtom said:

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# of teams during Russell's career:
56-57: 8
57-58: 8
58-59: 8
59-60: 8
60-61: 8
61-62: 9
62-63: 9
63-64: 9
64-65: 9
65-66: 9
66-67: 10
67-68: 12
68-69: 14

I

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Fewer teams = less dilution of available talent and more knowledge of your game. They didn't have the international influx of talent yet, but fewer teams isn't easier.