I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

Hope you're right but that's a lot of extrapolation from one night ...

I would say Wyking should know that the hanging on the rim shouldn't be a personal foul and should have corrected it immediately.

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

There is no offensive scheme. This is on the coach.

Big C said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

---

This has got to be the weakest excuse ever. Why would anyone recruit an international recruit? According to you he wouldn't be good until he's 27. Can we strip the Aussies scholarship? He spent his first 18 years overseas.

ayetee11 said:

---

Big C said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

---

This has got to be the weakest excuse ever. Why would anyone recruit an international recruit? According to you he wouldn't be good until he's 27. Can we strip the Aussies scholarship? He spent his first 18 years overseas.

---

It's no excuse, it's THE REASON.

You've probably been to England, but I bet you've never played basketball there, or even seen it played. Cup of tea in one hand, crumpet in the other... why do you think Okoroh can't hold on to the ball?

ayetee11 said:

---

Big C said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

---

This has got to be the weakest excuse ever. Why would anyone recruit an international recruit? According to you he wouldn't be good until he's 27. Can we strip the Aussies scholarship? He spent his first 18 years overseas.

---

Weakest post ever. Kingsley spent 18 years in England-MOST OF THEM NOT PLAYING BASKETBALL, BUT SOCCER.

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

Big C said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

---

This has got to be the weakest excuse ever. Why would anyone recruit an international recruit? According to you he wouldn't be good until he's 27. Can we strip the Aussies scholarship? He spent his first 18 years overseas.

---

Weakest post ever. Kingsley spent 18 years in England-MOST OF THEM NOT PLAYING BASKETBALL, BUT SOCCER.

---

Exactly! Except he thought he was playing FOOTBALL!!!

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

Big C said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

He spent his first 18 yrs in England. It would take at least half that amount of time to retrain him.

---

This has got to be the weakest excuse ever. Why would anyone recruit an international recruit? According to you he wouldn't be good until he's 27. Can we strip the Aussies scholarship? He spent his first 18 years overseas.

---

Weakest post ever. Kingsley spent 18 years in England-MOST OF THEM NOT PLAYING BASKETBALL, BUT SOCCER.

---

He had 4 years of international experience. Played at Findlay Prep and Westwind Prep prior to coming to Cal. That means he's been playing at minimum since he was 14. If he had 4 years of playing for England's Junior National team, how long did he play to get picked up on that team? So at minimum 8 years, plus being a 7 footer, and he's not much better than when he enrolled?

Come to Cal, if you don't improve it's not the coaches fault. But if you have one good game the coach is a good coach.

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

That proves it. Extend his contract before someone snatches him away!

Sluggo

Based on the body of work we're seeing this season, either Jones is a poor "X's & O's" coach, really bad recruiter, or both.

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

ayetee11 said:

---

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

---

On balance, Okoroh was not a great use of a scholarship; however, Jones can't be blamed for that, since he was recruited before Wyking got here. To say that he didn't improve, however, is clearly inaccurate. True, if the only part of basketball that you are aware of is points and rebounds, his stats aren't impressive; OTOH, he is 2nd all-time at Cal in blocks, and 10th in the P12. Some people think blocked shots are a good thing...

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

---

On balance, Okoroh was not a great use of a scholarship; however, Jones can't be blamed for that, since he was recruited before Wyking got here. To say that he didn't improve, however, is clearly inaccurate. True, if the only part of basketball that you are aware of is points and rebounds, his stats aren't impressive; OTOH, he is 2nd all-time at Cal in blocks, and 10th in the P12. Some people think blocked shots are a good thing...

---

Blocking shots is great, but he's always been able to do that. He's 7 foot. I wouldn't go so far to say he's improved. Statistically he's double his blocks per game, but he's also doubled his minutes. His per 40 minutes are only slightly better.

He was better last year wine Rabb and Brown helped take the heat off he is a put back man not a go to guy. Thurman was better.

ayetee11 said:

---

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

---

On balance, Okoroh was not a great use of a scholarship; however, Jones can't be blamed for that, since he was recruited before Wyking got here. To say that he didn't improve, however, is clearly inaccurate. True, if the only part of basketball that you are aware of is points and rebounds, his stats aren't impressive; OTOH, he is 2nd all-time at Cal in blocks, and 10th in the P12. Some people think blocked shots are a good thing...

---

Blocking shots is great, but he's always been able to do that. He's 7 foot. I wouldn't go so far to say he's improved. Statistically he's double his blocks per game, but he's also doubled his minutes. His per 40 minutes are only slightly better.

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

BeachedBear said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

---

On balance, Okoroh was not a great use of a scholarship; however, Jones can't be blamed for that, since he was recruited before Wyking got here. To say that he didn't improve, however, is clearly inaccurate. True, if the only part of basketball that you are aware of is points and rebounds, his stats aren't impressive; OTOH, he is 2nd all-time at Cal in blocks, and 10th in the P12. Some people think blocked shots are a good thing...

---

Blocking shots is great, but he's always been able to do that. He's 7 foot. I wouldn't go so far to say he's improved. Statistically he's double his blocks per game, but he's also doubled his minutes. His per 40 minutes are only slightly better.

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

Exactly. We all agree Monty is a great coach--How much did Bak Bak improve?

BeachedBear said:

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

UrsaMajor said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

calumnus said:

---

ayetee11 said:

---

SFCityBear said:

---

I have only two words: Roman Davis

It is only one game, and against a weak PAC12 opponent, but Roman could not do this last month or last season. He probably never had a game like that in his life. He just seemed to be in the right place at the right time most of the game. The three pointer might have had some luck involved, but the rest of his line and that game was just real solid basketball. On one play, the way he drove to the basket, missed the shot, and grabbed the rebound and made a putback was the best imitation of Ivan Rabb imaginable. It just had to be the result of good coaching and a player responding to it.

---

Can you explain Kingsley? He's been the bigs coach for 2 years before taking over as head coach.

---

Okoroh is actually much improved from when he first arrived at Cal and people were gushing over Rooks.

---

People were gushing over Rooks? Those people need lessons on the game. A 7 footer in college that can't dunk? Averaging 2 points and 3 rebounds a game as a 5th year senior.

Kingsley went from averaging 2 pts and 2 rebs as a freshman to 5 pts and 5 rebs as a senior. No wonder Cal isn't good consistently. Fans see these two players as improved.

---

On balance, Okoroh was not a great use of a scholarship; however, Jones can't be blamed for that, since he was recruited before Wyking got here. To say that he didn't improve, however, is clearly inaccurate. True, if the only part of basketball that you are aware of is points and rebounds, his stats aren't impressive; OTOH, he is 2nd all-time at Cal in blocks, and 10th in the P12. Some people think blocked shots are a good thing...

---

Blocking shots is great, but he's always been able to do that. He's 7 foot. I wouldn't go so far to say he's improved. Statistically he's double his blocks per game, but he's also doubled his minutes. His per 40 minutes are only slightly better.

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

Exactly. We all agree Monty is a great coach--How much did Bak Bak improve?

---

Yeah, but I'm not out here screaming out Wyking can coach because Roman Davis had one good game. Let's name every big under Jones at Cal. Rabb, regressed and hurt draft stock. Rooks, no improvement besides getting stronger. Kingsley, got stronger and hands slightly better, but that's what 4 years will do to you. If someone said give Jones time, fine, but when the guy so many of you claim to be such an expert says Jones can coach because Roman Davis I say pump the brakes a little.

UCBerkGrad said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

---

Some report that Okoroh has been battling an injury or two this season. That said, no, he hasn't improved that much in four years.

When he gets the ball in the post, his footwork doesn't get him any closer to the basket before he shoots (shoulda been tutored by Mark McNamara).

He gets a lot of blocks, but often seems a step or two out of position.

The "hands of stone" idea worked better for Roberto Duran than it does for a basketball player.

Even with all this, I wish we had redshirted him and he could play for us next year: (We're that depleted up front.) Seems like a good guy. I hope he's getting his degree..

King has improved a lot in many areas.
I've detailed how before, so won't now.
One thing that has hurt him is the game has changed, and so he's not a good fit against some offenses/teams.
Four year solid contributor, and a great guy.

You are BY FAR the most positive person on these boards (note: heavy sarcasm). What would you do to improve Cal athletics, since all you do is come on here and complain? I seriously don't think I have ever seen a positive comment by you once. It gets tiresome. And to attack SFCityBear like that is just wrong. I know I don't agree with everything he says, but the guy is an amazing fan of Cal and a wealth of knowledge. Completely uncalled for.

UCBerkGrad said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

---

Like I said, I don't think you've been paying attention to the games - just looking at stats (maybe that's harsh, but my point is that there is more than stats - like actually watching). I think his passing, footwork, pacing, rebounding, shooting mechanics, understanding of his role both offensively and defensively have all improved every season including this one. I will repeat: He is not ALL conference and he came in as a project - not a highly touted recruit with big man skills. With different players, schedule, coaches - a stat comparison is very wobbly.

Now, I'm not agreeing with SFCity about Jones getting credit for Davis. And if you look at my history of posts (which we can't anymore - aaarrrggghh), you'll see I'm not a Jones buddy and have been very critical of him. I also wouldn't give credit to any of the coaching staff for KO's improvement, since I don't attend practice and have no data.

But to say KO has not improved or even regressed from where he was last season or before, is simply wrong.

BeachedBear said:

---

UCBerkGrad said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

---

KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

---

Like I said, I don't think you've been paying attention to the games - just looking at stats (maybe that's harsh, but my point is that there is more than stats - like actually watching). I think his passing, footwork, pacing, rebounding, shooting mechanics, understanding of his role both offensively and defensively have all improved every season including this one. I will repeat: He is not ALL conference and he came in as a project - not a highly touted recruit with big man skills. With different players, schedule, coaches - a stat comparison is very wobbly.

Now, I'm not agreeing with SFCity about Jones getting credit for Davis. And if you look at my history of posts (which we can't anymore - aaarrrggghh), you'll see I'm not a Jones buddy and have been very critical of him. I also wouldn't give credit to any of the coaching staff for KO's improvement, since I don't attend practice and have no data.

But to say KO has not improved or even regressed from where he was last season or before, is simply wrong.

---

You are correct that stats aren't everything, but at some point those thing he has improved in need to show up in the stat sheet.

The ceiling for players like KO and Rooks is somewhat limited due to their athleticism. No matter how much coaching and development you put in, you may not see a significant improvement in their stats. That said, I think both of them improved over their time here.

philbert said:

---

The ceiling for players like KO and Rooks is somewhat limited due to their athleticism. No matter how much coaching and development you put in, you may not see a significant improvement in their stats. That said, I think both of them improved over their time here.

---

What about a player like Omar Sanham? Similar athleticism to Rooks, less than Kingsley. When from 9 points a game to 21 by his senior year. Weaker conference, but he put on a show in the NCAAs.

I'm curious if people run their businesses the same way. "Joe Shmoe didn't have much production in four years with the company, but we hired him knowing he had very little potential to do well."

ayetee11 said:

---

philbert said:

---

The ceiling for players like KO and Rooks is somewhat limited due to their athleticism. No matter how much coaching and development you put in, you may not see a significant improvement in their stats. That said, I think both of them improved over their time here.

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What about a player like Omar Sanham? Similar athleticism to Rooks, less than Kingsley. When from 9 points a game to 21 by his senior year. Weaker conference, but he put on a show in the NCAAs.

I'm curious if people run their businesses the same way. "Joe Shmoe didn't have much production in four years with the company, but we hired him knowing he had very little potential to do well."

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I didn't really follow Samhan much, but I don't remember him being similar to Rooks or KO in terms of athleticism. I do remember looking at Rooks' highlight video from HS and being very underwhelmed. Never saw KO's videos.

ayetee11 said:

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BeachedBear said:

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UCBerkGrad said:

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BeachedBear said:

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If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

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KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

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Like I said, I don't think you've been paying attention to the games - just looking at stats (maybe that's harsh, but my point is that there is more than stats - like actually watching). I think his passing, footwork, pacing, rebounding, shooting mechanics, understanding of his role both offensively and defensively have all improved every season including this one. I will repeat: He is not ALL conference and he came in as a project - not a highly touted recruit with big man skills. With different players, schedule, coaches - a stat comparison is very wobbly.

Now, I'm not agreeing with SFCity about Jones getting credit for Davis. And if you look at my history of posts (which we can't anymore - aaarrrggghh), you'll see I'm not a Jones buddy and have been very critical of him. I also wouldn't give credit to any of the coaching staff for KO's improvement, since I don't attend practice and have no data.

But to say KO has not improved or even regressed from where he was last season or before, is simply wrong.

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You are correct that stats aren't everything, but at some point those thing he has improved in need to show up in the stat sheet.

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That's a fair point. And if you took this year's KO and put him on last year's team - the stats would probably reflect it.

ayetee11 said:

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philbert said:

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The ceiling for players like KO and Rooks is somewhat limited due to their athleticism. No matter how much coaching and development you put in, you may not see a significant improvement in their stats. That said, I think both of them improved over their time here.

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What about a player like Omar Sanham? Similar athleticism to Rooks, less than Kingsley. When from 9 points a game to 21 by his senior year. Weaker conference, but he put on a show in the NCAAs.

I'm curious if people run their businesses the same way. "Joe Shmoe didn't have much production in four years with the company, but we hired him knowing he had very little potential to do well."

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If your point is now that Okoroh shouldn't have been recruited; in retrospect I have no quarrel with that. However, two points: you can't blame his recruiting on Jones and it's pretty common for coaches to take a flier on 7-1 guys in the hopes they might develop. Usually, when they don't, they just languish on the bench, but with no one else on Cal, KO was forced to play more of a role than he was capable of.

BeachedBear said:

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UCBerkGrad said:

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BeachedBear said:

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If you don't think he's improved, then my guess is you haven't been paying attention. Is he all Pac-12? No. But his game has improved more than most big-man projects at Cal over the last few decades.

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KO Stats

Where has he improved?

Minutes up from last year
FG% lowest in his 4 years at Cal
FT% up to 67%
Reb down from last year
Ast down from last year
Blk down from last year
Stl down from last year
PF up from last year
TO same as last year
Avg 1 more pt a game than last year

Seems like he has regressed as a Senior

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Like I said, I don't think you've been paying attention to the games - just looking at stats (maybe that's harsh, but my point is that there is more than stats - like actually watching). I think his passing, footwork, pacing, rebounding, shooting mechanics, understanding of his role both offensively and defensively have all improved every season including this one. I will repeat: He is not ALL conference and he came in as a project - not a highly touted recruit with big man skills. With different players, schedule, coaches - a stat comparison is very wobbly.

Now, I'm not agreeing with SFCity about Jones getting credit for Davis. And if you look at my history of posts (which we can't anymore - aaarrrggghh), you'll see I'm not a Jones buddy and have been very critical of him. I also wouldn't give credit to any of the coaching staff for KO's improvement, since I don't attend practice and have no data.

But to say KO has not improved or even regressed from where he was last season or before, is simply wrong.

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How can you say he is a better passer, has better footwork, better pacing, etc when we don't see it in the stat sheet? What's the point of having better footwork if it doesn't result in better results?

I know you don't like stats, but compare OK's junior and senior years on a per minute basis:

Rebounds down 16%
Assists down 29%
Blocks down 21%
Steals down 41%
Points up 4%

If he was indeed better in all those categories, wouldn't we see some improvement....anywhere??

For me, KO's relatively low athleticism was not expected, since he spent his athletic youth playing soccer. How do you spend years playing soccer, in a soccer-mad country, on a soccer-mad continent, in a soccer-mad world, and not get really adept at moving your feet (using your feet correctly being, to a large extent, the key to skillful basketball playing).