Only 3 Mickey D AA's playing in Final Four

6,865 Views | 40 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Richard__Lee
SFCityBear
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Richard__Lee said:

Usually, 5 star recruits work out well and have an immediate-to-eventual positive impact. Not always. But I'll always take a 5 star talent who is a virtual guarantee to be a star over a marginal talent who one hopes to maybe one day develop into a contributor.


Respectfully, I disagree that 5-star recruits "usually work out well and have an immediate-to-eventual positive impact." About two years ago in this Bear Insider Forum, I published a spreadsheet which tracked the careers of the top ranked 100 players of the 2009 recruiting class, through college and professional leagues. I posted it here again a year or so later. What I tracked was their individual performance in college, and whether they helped their teams to any successful seasons.

You wrote about positive impact, and I assume you meant an impact on his team, that is helped his team to some team success. At least that is what positive impact would mean to me. A player can come in as a freshman and make a big splash in the media with his athleticism and individual statistics and talents, but if it doesn't translate into his team being successful then, I don't consider that a positive impact. Landing Ivan Rabb and Jaylen Brown did very little to add enough prestige to the Cal Basketball program to translate into continued sustained recruiting success in the following two years, IMHO.

My criteria for a player's contribution, and for a team's success were minimal. To be a contributor to team success, I said the player had to be in the rotation. To be a successful team, I said the team would have to achieve one of the following: win their conference championship, or reach the 3rd round of the NCAA tournament, or reach the NIT Final.

For 2009, what I found was only 10 of the 20 top ranked players helped their teams to become successful over their full college careers, and 17 of the top 30 ranked players helped their teams. That should include most or all of your 5-star recruits. For the top 100 ranked players, only 40 helped their teams to the success I described above. The spreadsheet shows that recruit rankings were only about 50% accurate for the top 50 players of 2009, and only 30% accurate for players ranked 51-100.

In 2009, there were 11 one-and-done players, and only 4 helped their teams to success: John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, and Eric Bledsoe who helped Kentucky to the SEC title and the Elite 8, and Xavier Henry who helped Kansas to the Big 12 championship. Other years might have been better (or worse) for the experts who rank recruits, but that was it for 2009. They say if you can predict winners 51% of the time you will win your bets, and if this spreadsheet is correct, that would indicate that recruiting 5-star recruits to your program is a winning proposition for you just over 50% of the time. As to them predicting your team with a 5-star OAD getting to the Final Four or winning the NCAA, the accuracy would be much lower. With supposedly the very best recruits, the OADs, your chance of winning your bets would be only 36%.

I don't believe in recruiting players who are thinking of when they will leave Cal even before they sign with Cal. Such a player if he becomes a focus of the team's offense or defense will completely disrupt the team when he leaves, just as though he is a senior starter, with the exception that you usually can't fully prepare for replacing him. And he might very well disrupt your team while he is on it, by hogging the ball or immature behavior. Ivan Rabb did neither and was an ideal OAD, but his Cal teams had no success. These possible OADs are not going to help you for more than a season or two. They will do their maturing and reach what would have been their college peak year in the D-League or on the bench of an NBA team. Haven't we seen enough of them at Cal? Yes, they have individual talents, but their teams have accomplished next to nothing. Not to mention the time and the risk that some coaches and programs will take to land a star player. In 2009, Kentucky had to land three of them to be successful. Cuonzo landed two of them and had no success even as defined by my minimal standards. Why do any of this for a player who has only a 50% chance at best of helping your team?


PtownBear1
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Big C said:

PtownBear1 said:

TheSouseFamily said:

I'm not a huge Bill Self fan given all the character and off-the-court issues Kansas has had but he's a genius in how he's exploited the transfer market. Every coach is looking for a recruiting advantage and While Self will still occasionally get an elite OAD, he knows that Kentucky and Duke have the edge there. Other coaches have looked to exploit other advantages in recruiting like Bennett going after Aussies, Mark Few recruiting internationally and other coaches getting in bed with AAU coaches. Self, on the hand, has prioritized transfers of kids who have a collegiate body of work and usually excelled as freshman (mostly) and are looking to take a step up in competition and visibility. Pretty brilliant if you ask me.

Next year's KU roster will have Malik Newman (from Miss State), Charlie Moore (Cal), Sam Cunliffe (ASU), Dedric and KJ Lawson (Memphis) and Jack Whitman (William and Mary). All of those guys are double digit scorers in college, have shown they can play and are experienced. Not surprisingly, Kansas is an early favorite to to win it all next year.
Recruiting transfers may be the shadiest of the different tactics. You're going after players that another university has invested tons of time and money into and convincing them to leave for greener pastures. I don't buy for a minute that contact only happens after a player has declared they're transferring. Purely conjecture, but I would expect it starts as soon as a coach/assistant leaves or there are rumblings a player may be unhappy.
Some of us remember when Cal lost to Kansas for a spot in the Elite 8 (the Jason Kidd team) and, after the game, then-Jayhawks Coach Roy Williams spent what seemed to be QUITE a long time shaking hands with Jerrod Haase, offering heartfelt condolences over the loss, etc. Right away, I was like, "Something's up with that" and, sure enough, Haase transfers to Kansas a few weeks later.

I guess Williams, when he bolted for UNC, left his recruiting playbook on his desk for Self to look at.
Yeah I guess so, interesting story.
Civil Bear
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Big C said:

PtownBear1 said:

TheSouseFamily said:

I'm not a huge Bill Self fan given all the character and off-the-court issues Kansas has had but he's a genius in how he's exploited the transfer market. Every coach is looking for a recruiting advantage and While Self will still occasionally get an elite OAD, he knows that Kentucky and Duke have the edge there. Other coaches have looked to exploit other advantages in recruiting like Bennett going after Aussies, Mark Few recruiting internationally and other coaches getting in bed with AAU coaches. Self, on the hand, has prioritized transfers of kids who have a collegiate body of work and usually excelled as freshman (mostly) and are looking to take a step up in competition and visibility. Pretty brilliant if you ask me.

Next year's KU roster will have Malik Newman (from Miss State), Charlie Moore (Cal), Sam Cunliffe (ASU), Dedric and KJ Lawson (Memphis) and Jack Whitman (William and Mary). All of those guys are double digit scorers in college, have shown they can play and are experienced. Not surprisingly, Kansas is an early favorite to to win it all next year.
Recruiting transfers may be the shadiest of the different tactics. You're going after players that another university has invested tons of time and money into and convincing them to leave for greener pastures. I don't buy for a minute that contact only happens after a player has declared they're transferring. Purely conjecture, but I would expect it starts as soon as a coach/assistant leaves or there are rumblings a player may be unhappy.
Some of us remember when Cal lost to Kansas for a spot in the Elite 8 (the Jason Kidd team) and, after the game, then-Jayhawks Coach Roy Williams spent what seemed to be QUITE a long time shaking hands with Jerrod Haase, offering heartfelt condolences over the loss, etc. Right away, I was like, "Something's up with that" and, sure enough, Haase transfers to Kansas a few weeks later.

I guess Williams, when he bolted for UNC, left his recruiting playbook on his desk for Self to look at.
Meh, it was clear Hass had one foot out the door after his father passed and Bosoman took over and relegated him to bench duty. My guess was Haas was reaching out to Williams.
calumnus
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Civil Bear said:

Big C said:

PtownBear1 said:

TheSouseFamily said:

I'm not a huge Bill Self fan given all the character and off-the-court issues Kansas has had but he's a genius in how he's exploited the transfer market. Every coach is looking for a recruiting advantage and While Self will still occasionally get an elite OAD, he knows that Kentucky and Duke have the edge there. Other coaches have looked to exploit other advantages in recruiting like Bennett going after Aussies, Mark Few recruiting internationally and other coaches getting in bed with AAU coaches. Self, on the hand, has prioritized transfers of kids who have a collegiate body of work and usually excelled as freshman (mostly) and are looking to take a step up in competition and visibility. Pretty brilliant if you ask me.

Next year's KU roster will have Malik Newman (from Miss State), Charlie Moore (Cal), Sam Cunliffe (ASU), Dedric and KJ Lawson (Memphis) and Jack Whitman (William and Mary). All of those guys are double digit scorers in college, have shown they can play and are experienced. Not surprisingly, Kansas is an early favorite to to win it all next year.
Recruiting transfers may be the shadiest of the different tactics. You're going after players that another university has invested tons of time and money into and convincing them to leave for greener pastures. I don't buy for a minute that contact only happens after a player has declared they're transferring. Purely conjecture, but I would expect it starts as soon as a coach/assistant leaves or there are rumblings a player may be unhappy.
Some of us remember when Cal lost to Kansas for a spot in the Elite 8 (the Jason Kidd team) and, after the game, then-Jayhawks Coach Roy Williams spent what seemed to be QUITE a long time shaking hands with Jerrod Haase, offering heartfelt condolences over the loss, etc. Right away, I was like, "Something's up with that" and, sure enough, Haase transfers to Kansas a few weeks later.

I guess Williams, when he bolted for UNC, left his recruiting playbook on his desk for Self to look at.
Meh, it was clear Hass had one foot out the door after his father passed and Bosoman took over and relegated him to bench duty. My guess was Haas was reaching out to Williams.


And now Haase is a Furd
tsubamoto2001
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Recruiting rankings can be misleading. What a Villanova has done is accumulate talent over several classes, instead of just one class. They have a 5* in Brunson (the POY) that they managed to keep until his junior season. Their roster has quality from spots 1-8 or 9. That's how you sustain success. It's the method Cal needs to follow.

TheSouseFamily said:

Recent recruiting class rankings for Michigan and Villanova (per 247 rankings):

2017: Michigan #49 - Villanova #21
2016: Michigan #32 - Villanova #47
2015: Michigan #99 - Villanova #29
2014: Michigan #29 - Villanova #64
2013: Michigan #18 - Villanova #47

And the teams that had the best average recruiting rankings over that time period?

Duke - Elite 8
Kentucky - Sweet 16
Arizona - First Round
Kansas - Final 4
UCLA - play-in game
Louisville - did not make tournament

Give me a good coach over elite talent any day. Ideally, both, but this is why quality coaches are worth so much. VERY different from football.

TheSouseFamily
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Tsuba - Totally ageee with you that recruiting rankings can be misleading. That's actually why I posted those. They're misleading in a couple of ways. For one, they don't take into account continuity and stability on a roster which every team in the final 4 has benefited from. And secondly, the ratings are misleading because rankings are usually only an assessment of a player's offensive skill. Rarely does it reflect a player's defensive ability. Even some of the Wooden Award nominees like Trae Young and Collin Sexton are defensive liabilities despite their offensive gifts.

The reason why there is such a tenuous connection between rankings and performance is that strong programs have stability on their rosters and develop programs over time. And they recruit players who have the ability and interest in playing defense which a good coach (like Beilein and Wright) can mold into a powerful defense.
Richard__Lee
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concordtom said:

HoopDreams said:

hey Richard Lee, where ya been?


A) he was busy working hard to earn back all that dough he paid to recruits and their family members via envelopes of cash.

B) he was ashamed to show his face around here, as all that blown wad did nothing for on-court success.

C) he was banned for making such overt offers, only now let out of jail.

D) Trump had read about his overtly brash and unscrupulous ways, hired him, then (of course) fired him. He's baaaack.

E) head injury. Amnesia. He knows nothing.

D) this is an imposter.



Remind me who you are again? When I see your handle, I'm drawing a big zero. Odd.

Yes, you are 100% correct. I am an imposter.
You can’t spell NCAA without N-C-A-A.
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