If the players DON'T choose to transfer, and thus keep their scholarship spots locked up, then what is the point of not letting them ride the bench, and have them available should we get decimated by injuries (or just foul trouble in an individual game)? Unless they have behavior problems, conduct detrimental to the team, etc.

Also for practice players

BeachedBear said:

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rkt88edmo said:

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I have no problem with coach actively trying to find them a new landing spot, he has to do the best for the team. But if they don't want to go, finding stupid details to pop their contract is lame and unethical, IMO.

It hurts, but I would rather we suck it up than push them out. It was just a bad mistake stocking that class with so many underclass guards who were borderline.

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Is this what Jones is doing? Or are you speculating? If this is true, then that casts things much differently than what has been portrayed and agree that it is very bad and we should suck it up.

Please elaborate about this contractual angle.

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I've got zero insight into our program and what D1 coaches do to force out players, in general, other than what I read here on on espn.com or other random blogs/tweets.

Why are people talking about that angle? because someone brought it up and nature abhors a vacuum :P

glutton said:

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If the players DON'T choose to transfer, and thus keep their scholarship spots locked up, then what is the point of not letting them ride the bench, and have them available should we get decimated by injuries (or just foul trouble in an individual game)? Unless they have behavior problems, conduct detrimental to the team, etc.

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So a player isn't good enough and you want him to transfer. You can't take away his scholarship. The only way to incent him to leave is to say he won't be on the team. He can keep the schollie, but he won't get to play. But you will help him find a schollie to play elsewhere. He say, no thanks, I'll just take the schollie. You say okay, just kidding. You can play.

How then do you ever get some one to leave.?

What is the purpose of intercollegiate athletics within an educational setting?
Why do colleges have sports teams?

If you cut the cord, cut it completely. They don't belong on the bench. I doubt they want to be there.

Good questions ConcordTom. Presently, the colleges are in the entertainment business, and they shouldn't be.

OaktownBear said:

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glutton said:

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If the players DON'T choose to transfer, and thus keep their scholarship spots locked up, then what is the point of not letting them ride the bench, and have them available should we get decimated by injuries (or just foul trouble in an individual game)? Unless they have behavior problems, conduct detrimental to the team, etc.

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So a player isn't good enough and you want him to transfer. You can't take away his scholarship. The only way to incent him to leave is to say he won't be on the team. He can keep the schollie, but he won't get to play. But you will help him find a schollie to play elsewhere. He say, no thanks, I'll just take the schollie. You say okay, just kidding. You can play.

How then do you ever get some one to leave.?

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You encourage him to leave by telling him he isn't in your plans and that he will most likely be riding the bench all season. But if he's determined to stay at Cal and get his education here, and therefore the school can't give the scholarship spot to someone else, why not keep the player as an extra body at practice and on the bench in case of emergency? The school would already be screwed and unable to allocate the scholly to anyone else, so should they at least get some work out of the player?

glutton said:

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OaktownBear said:

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glutton said:

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If the players DON'T choose to transfer, and thus keep their scholarship spots locked up, then what is the point of not letting them ride the bench, and have them available should we get decimated by injuries (or just foul trouble in an individual game)? Unless they have behavior problems, conduct detrimental to the team, etc.

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So a player isn't good enough and you want him to transfer. You can't take away his scholarship. The only way to incent him to leave is to say he won't be on the team. He can keep the schollie, but he won't get to play. But you will help him find a schollie to play elsewhere. He say, no thanks, I'll just take the schollie. You say okay, just kidding. You can play.

How then do you ever get some one to leave.?

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You encourage him to leave by telling him he isn't in your plans and that he will most likely be riding the bench all season. But if he's determined to stay at Cal and get his education here, and therefore the school can't give the scholarship spot to someone else, why not keep the player as an extra body at practice and on the bench in case of emergency? The school would already be screwed and unable to allocate the scholly to anyone else, so should they at least get some work out of the player?

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I'll tell you why. Because guys are idiots who think they can always convince people with their amazing prowess. Especially young guys. A lot of women would get this. If a woman wants to break up with her boyfriend, she cuts it clean. She doesn't tell him, I see no future with you and you are never getting sex from me ever again, so you should just move on, but you know if I don't have any plans on a Friday night, going out with you is better than staying home, so if you want to buy me dinner and take me to a movie, fine, as long as you remember there is no future and no sex. As long as he is there, he's going to think he can change her mind. Gotta cut the cord with brutal honesty and never look back. It's best for all involved.

As long as he is on the team, there is hope that he can change the coach's mind. You are undercutting your ability to get him to see if he wants to play he needs to leave. If you let one guy back on, you will never convince anyone else that they have no chance. Once you've decided you don't want the guy, end it. You won't be on the team. Our level of not wanting you is such that we will eat the scholarship if we have to. You will never play for us. Ever. No practice. Nothing. Should you choose to stay, your basketball career is over. Now it is your choice. Brutal honesty. It's not good to keep hope alive. He is better off looking for a team that wants him.

Honestly, if he chooses to stay, great for him that he wants a Cal education and I'm happy to have him as a Cal student, but you don't want a guy who has no commitment to basketball on your bench.

Shakespeare agrees: 'The kind do it with a sword."

glutton said:

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[lYou encourage him to leave by telling him he isn't in your plans and that he will most likely be riding the bench all season.

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That's what you do when you know you can't actually pull the scolly. Sounds like that may not habe been the case...

Only a short time ago I was conned into paying top dollar for tickets to a meaningless post season game, just to support our "student athletes". They forgot to mention that the coach had quit, the best player was sitting out, and the only point guard had bailed out mentally. Say bye-bye to my $. It's a two way deal, and I can do without the prima donna's 'tudes.

OaktownBear said:

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glutton said:

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OaktownBear said:

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glutton said:

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If the players DON'T choose to transfer, and thus keep their scholarship spots locked up, then what is the point of not letting them ride the bench, and have them available should we get decimated by injuries (or just foul trouble in an individual game)? Unless they have behavior problems, conduct detrimental to the team, etc.

---

So a player isn't good enough and you want him to transfer. You can't take away his scholarship. The only way to incent him to leave is to say he won't be on the team. He can keep the schollie, but he won't get to play. But you will help him find a schollie to play elsewhere. He say, no thanks, I'll just take the schollie. You say okay, just kidding. You can play.

How then do you ever get some one to leave.?

---

You encourage him to leave by telling him he isn't in your plans and that he will most likely be riding the bench all season. But if he's determined to stay at Cal and get his education here, and therefore the school can't give the scholarship spot to someone else, why not keep the player as an extra body at practice and on the bench in case of emergency? The school would already be screwed and unable to allocate the scholly to anyone else, so should they at least get some work out of the player?

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I'll tell you why. Because guys are idiots who think they can always convince people with their amazing prowess. Especially young guys. A lot of women would get this. If a woman wants to break up with her boyfriend, she cuts it clean. She doesn't tell him, I see no future with you and you are never getting sex from me ever again, so you should just move on, but you know if I don't have any plans on a Friday night, going out with you is better than staying home, so if you want to buy me dinner and take me to a movie, fine, as long as you remember there is no future and no sex. As long as he is there, he's going to think he can change her mind. Gotta cut the cord with brutal honesty and never look back. It's best for all involved.

As long as he is on the team, there is hope that he can change the coach's mind. You are undercutting your ability to get him to see if he wants to play he needs to leave. If you let one guy back on, you will never convince anyone else that they have no chance. Once you've decided you don't want the guy, end it. You won't be on the team. Our level of not wanting you is such that we will eat the scholarship if we have to. You will never play for us. Ever. No practice. Nothing. Should you choose to stay, your basketball career is over. Now it is your choice. Brutal honesty. It's not good to keep hope alive. He is better off looking for a team that wants him.

Honestly, if he chooses to stay, great for him that he wants a Cal education and I'm happy to have him as a Cal student, but you don't want a guy who has no commitment to basketball on your bench.

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The analogy to a romantic break-up is interesting. Whether I was the dumper or the dumpee, I never wanted to talk to them again after the breakup - ever. I always felt a little bad about that, but maybe it was a good approach.

This is happening just 12 months after appreciating their talents enough to sell them on his team and offer them scholarships.

Either Wyking and staff is a horrible talent scout (doubtful) or they had no intent to stick with these guys for 4 years (more likely). Cause, did they suddenly become worse talents?

Not making me a Cal fan right now.

He could have found walk ons the rsf. Might have been a better plan. That being said, alot of people want Wyking gone for many different reasons. . They will do or say anything to get him fired.

Who knows what the truth really is. I hope the Chancellor is looking at this at the very least to find out the truth.

caltagjohnson said:

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If you cut the cord, cut it completely. They don't belong on the bench. I doubt they want to be there.

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Just to throw this thought into the mix: In the old days (do they still do it now): Either in Law or Engineering, or both, or maybe more departments, legend has it that, the first day, the professor would tell the class: Look to either side of you as you sit there. One or more of you three are not going to make it here.

I do imagine that, at least in some departments (e.g., the ones that produce the Nobel Prize winners):

(a) having the highest quality students is a goal, and

(b) there is some kind of practice and/or procedure (formal or informal) of weeding people out.

Being who I am, I am not sure that cut-throat methods like that are the best educational and/or development tools; but I also know that, to a certain extent, in elite Universities, the natural tendency of humans (not least of which in that age group) toward even hyper-competitiveness may well provide such a mechanism on its own.

So, in that sense, the situation discussed in this thread is perhaps not unique to college athletics - although it seems apparent that, in the context of basketball, it is perhaps rawer, just because there are so few spots (and that, commensurately, on a football squad with some 85 spots, the dilemma may not be so keening).

mikecohen said:

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caltagjohnson said:

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If you cut the cord, cut it completely. They don't belong on the bench. I doubt they want to be there.

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Just to throw this thought into the mix: In the old days (do they still do it now): Either in Law or Engineering, or both, or maybe more departments, legend has it that, the first day, the professor would tell the class: Look to either side of you as you sit there. One or more of you three are not going to make it here.

I do imagine that, at least in some departments (e.g., the ones that produce the Nobel Prize winners):

(a) having the highest quality students is a goal, and

(b) there is some kind of practice and/or procedure (formal or informal) of weeding people out.

Being who I am, I am not sure that cut-throat methods like that are the best educational and/or development tools; but I also know that, to a certain extent, in elite Universities, the natural tendency of humans (not least of which in that age group) toward even hyper-competitiveness may well provide such a mechanism on its own.

So, in that sense, the situation discussed in this thread is perhaps not unique to college athletics - although it seems apparent that, in the context of basketball, it is perhaps rawer, just because there are so few spots (and that, commensurately, on a football squad with some 85 spots, the dilemma may not be so keening).

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Did you just lift a scene from Paper Chase?

I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

NYCGOBEARS said:

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mikecohen said:

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caltagjohnson said:

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If you cut the cord, cut it completely. They don't belong on the bench. I doubt they want to be there.

---

Just to throw this thought into the mix: In the old days (do they still do it now): Either in Law or Engineering, or both, or maybe more departments, legend has it that, the first day, the professor would tell the class: Look to either side of you as you sit there. One or more of you three are not going to make it here.

I do imagine that, at least in some departments (e.g., the ones that produce the Nobel Prize winners):

(a) having the highest quality students is a goal, and

(b) there is some kind of practice and/or procedure (formal or informal) of weeding people out.

Being who I am, I am not sure that cut-throat methods like that are the best educational and/or development tools; but I also know that, to a certain extent, in elite Universities, the natural tendency of humans (not least of which in that age group) toward even hyper-competitiveness may well provide such a mechanism on its own.

So, in that sense, the situation discussed in this thread is perhaps not unique to college athletics - although it seems apparent that, in the context of basketball, it is perhaps rawer, just because there are so few spots (and that, commensurately, on a football squad with some 85 spots, the dilemma may not be so keening).

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Did you just lift a scene from Paper Chase?

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I do remember that; but I also do remember the general paradigm which pre-dated (and undoubtedly inspired) that movie. At least in the past, wasn't there something like that in the military academies (at least West Point -- a great case in point because, of course, Grant was at the bottom of the same class that Lee was at the top of - or pretty close).

mikecohen said:

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NYCGOBEARS said:

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mikecohen said:

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caltagjohnson said:

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If you cut the cord, cut it completely. They don't belong on the bench. I doubt they want to be there.

---

Just to throw this thought into the mix: In the old days (do they still do it now): Either in Law or Engineering, or both, or maybe more departments, legend has it that, the first day, the professor would tell the class: Look to either side of you as you sit there. One or more of you three are not going to make it here.

I do imagine that, at least in some departments (e.g., the ones that produce the Nobel Prize winners):

(a) having the highest quality students is a goal, and

(b) there is some kind of practice and/or procedure (formal or informal) of weeding people out.

Being who I am, I am not sure that cut-throat methods like that are the best educational and/or development tools; but I also know that, to a certain extent, in elite Universities, the natural tendency of humans (not least of which in that age group) toward even hyper-competitiveness may well provide such a mechanism on its own.

So, in that sense, the situation discussed in this thread is perhaps not unique to college athletics - although it seems apparent that, in the context of basketball, it is perhaps rawer, just because there are so few spots (and that, commensurately, on a football squad with some 85 spots, the dilemma may not be so keening).

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Did you just lift a scene from Paper Chase?

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I do remember that; but I also do remember the general paradigm which pre-dated (and undoubtedly inspired) that movie. At least in the past, wasn't there something like that in the military academies (at least West Point -- a great case in point because, of course, Grant was at the bottom of the same class that Lee was at the top of - or pretty close). And I think the military services build-in a certain percentage of wash-outs

An aside: A close friend of mine who is an extraordinary artist found himself in his youth totally out of place having been accepted into elite pilot training in either the air force or the navy; and, at a certain point, the disconnect between what he was doing and who he really was basically caused his emotions to take him out. I think he woke up one morning, drunk, and lying in a creek; and he realized he had to change. --- or something like that.

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Bear8995 said:

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I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

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Cool story. My stepmother packed my stuff in trash bags and put it in the hallway. After I moved to my Mom's my Dad tried to tell me I didn't have to move out and that was my choice. Good times.

dajo9 said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

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Cool story. My stepmother packed my stuff in trash bags and put it in the hallway. After I moved to my Mom's my Dad tried to tell me I didn't have to move out and that was my choice. Good times.

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You forgot, "...and I got a Cal degree."

dajo9 said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

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Cool story. My stepmother packed my stuff in trash bags and put it in the hallway. After I moved to my Mom's my Dad tried to tell me I didn't have to move out and that was my choice. Good times.

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Not cool of your stepmom. I'm guessing you aren't particularly close with her.

dajo9 said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

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Cool story. My stepmother packed my stuff in trash bags and put it in the hallway. After I moved to my Mom's my Dad tried to tell me I didn't have to move out and that was my choice. Good times.

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Crappy story.
I'm sorry.
I have a step mother like that.
Sold me and my brother down the river.
Just like my mom stole my step step-siblings' father from them.
It's biologically instinctive, I've reasoned.
You ever see what male lions do to the cubs when they take over a pride from another aging lion?

The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

helltopay1 said:

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The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

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Applause to an artist is like food to a hungry man

mikecohen said:

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helltopay1 said:

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The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

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Applause to an artist is like food to a hungry man

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Umm, that's not real applause

dajo9 said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I swim with a guy who swam at UCLA (many years ago) 200 freestyler. He was recruited over. Coach called him in and pulled his scholarship but told him he could remain at the school. So he did. Now he is an eye doctor.

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Cool story. My stepmother packed my stuff in trash bags and put it in the hallway. After I moved to my Mom's my Dad tried to tell me I didn't have to move out and that was my choice. Good times.

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They sound lovely!

concordtom said:

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This is happening just 12 months after appreciating their talents enough to sell them on his team and offer them scholarships.

Either Wyking and staff is a horrible talent scout (doubtful) or they had no intent to stick with these guys for 4 years (more likely). Cause, did they suddenly become worse talents?

Not making me a Cal fan right now.

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Wow CT, you're leaving out an awful lot of middle ground with your either-or. Perhaps, they estimated they could develop more than they actually did during the year. I would grade that as a recruiting miss, without needing to label it horrible or imply intentions that are spurrious.

I've probably hired over a hundred people in my career. It's not P12 basketball, but I was considered a top 'coach' in my field. I hired a lot of great folks and made a few mistakes. Never did I intentionally hire someone with the intention to dump them after a year (although I had to a few times). Nor was I considered a horrible talent evaluator.

I know it's slow this time of year, but come on . . .

Good rebuttal, BB.
I'll give you a star for that.
But I still got four, to your two.
Let's see whose opinion on this the public likes more (and to be fair, I suspect it was at least one of the leaking family members who starred mine - maybe a staff member will star yours, too, ha ha ha).

dajo9 said:

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mikecohen said:

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helltopay1 said:

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The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

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Applause to an artist is like food to a hungry man

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Umm, that's not real applause

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Isn't he saying that I'm so intelligent, he can't understand what I'm saying?

mikecohen said:

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dajo9 said:

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mikecohen said:

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helltopay1 said:

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The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

---

Applause to an artist is like food to a hungry man

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Umm, that's not real applause

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Isn't he saying that I'm so intelligent, he can't understand what I'm saying?

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I think he was trying to say, 'Teach a man how to clap and he'll eat for a day...'

MinotStateBeav said:

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mikecohen said:

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dajo9 said:

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mikecohen said:

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helltopay1 said:

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The most hilarious poster on this site by far is mike cohen. I have read every word he has typed ever since he has been on BI and I have yet to understand a word he has said. i don't know whether to laugh or cry. instead, I'll have another drink and pray for guidance.

---

Applause to an artist is like food to a hungry man

---

Umm, that's not real applause

---

Isn't he saying that I'm so intelligent, he can't understand what I'm saying?

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I think he was trying to say, 'Teach a man how to clap and he'll eat for a day...'

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Give a man the clap and he'll reap for a lifetime