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calbear80
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BeachedBear said:

calbear80 said:

Why prolong the agony?

Although I don't share Calbear80's level of apparent personal disdain, I tend to agree that WJ is not the future of Cal Basketball. But his last question (above) is really a good one.

There ARE a few reasons why we probably need to "prolong the agony". They all really come down to optics. And more importantly, what type of coach could we get to replace WJ, based on those optics.

I personally view WJ's hiring as an example of these optics in play. At that time, many other coaches probably would have looked at the situation and said to themselves . . .

Why would I want to work for such an AD?
Why would I want to be part of an athletic department that hasn't sorted out its accounting and financial plan?
Why would I want to work at a school that has hostile elements and an unsupportive chancellor?
Why would I want to start with such a depleted roster?

And I haven't even gotten to the compensation part!

A year later these have all been addressed to one extent or another (Thanks to Chancellor Carol, IMHO). But the optics for this year are not so great as well.

First, if WJ gets replaced by Knowlton at any point in time with a proven coach (that he has a prior relationship with) - then I think the optics are irrelevant. Knowlton is the new AND he has a window to put his stamp on things. It would need to be a pretty proven coach, however. Also, if WJ gets caught doing something bad - optics don't matter.

Barring that, if Knowlton cans WJ early or mid season, then other coaches are going to still question the expectations and reality of the administration and Cal will have to 'settle' again with WJ's replacement.

We are in the boat we are in. I'm OK with playing out the season with WJ, providing whatever vocal support I can and hope for the best (but stay realistic). After the season is over, a better judgment can be made and the optics will look OK if Knowlton says something like "WJ did not move the program along as fast as we had agreed, so he is being replaced".

If WJ wins a 5 or fewer conference games or embarrasses Cal during OOC, then we should not give him another year because of possible recruiting hype. I think that is a poor rationale to retain a coach who was not able to accomplish much with given talent.


BeachedBear, thank you for a logical balanced post. I have to agree with most of your statements.

Unfortunately, meanwhile, this upcoming season we will have anotter wasted season like last year (and the recruiting consequences that goes with it).

Go Bears!
stu
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calbear80 said:

Unfortunately, meanwhile, this upcoming season we will have anotter wasted season like last year (and the recruiting consequences that goes with it).

I think our 2018 recruiting went pretty well, especially considering our poor record and drama. I think we'll look better this season so for 2019 recruiting I'm mostly concerned with a possible lack of available schollies.
Big C
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UrsaMajor said:

BeachedBear said:

calbear80 said:

Why prolong the agony?

Although I don't share Calbear80's level of apparent personal disdain, I tend to agree that WJ is not the future of Cal Basketball. But his last question (above) is really a good one.

There ARE a few reasons why we probably need to "prolong the agony". They all really come down to optics. And more importantly, what type of coach could we get to replace WJ, based on those optics.

I personally view WJ's hiring as an example of these optics in play. At that time, many other coaches probably would have looked at the situation and said to themselves . . .

Why would I want to work for such an AD?
Why would I want to be part of an athletic department that hasn't sorted out its accounting and financial plan?
Why would I want to work at a school that has hostile elements and an unsupportive chancellor?
Why would I want to start with such a depleted roster?

And I haven't even gotten to the compensation part!

A year later these have all been addressed to one extent or another (Thanks to Chancellor Carol, IMHO). But the optics for this year are not so great as well.

First, if WJ gets replaced by Knowlton at any point in time with a proven coach (that he has a prior relationship with) - then I think the optics are irrelevant. Knowlton is the new AND he has a window to put his stamp on things. It would need to be a pretty proven coach, however. Also, if WJ gets caught doing something bad - optics don't matter.

Barring that, if Knowlton cans WJ early or mid season, then other coaches are going to still question the expectations and reality of the administration and Cal will have to 'settle' again with WJ's replacement.

We are in the boat we are in. I'm OK with playing out the season with WJ, providing whatever vocal support I can and hope for the best (but stay realistic). After the season is over, a better judgment can be made and the optics will look OK if Knowlton says something like "WJ did not move the program along as fast as we had agreed, so he is being replaced".

If WJ wins a 5 or fewer conference games or embarrasses Cal during OOC, then we should not give him another year because of possible recruiting hype. I think that is a poor rationale to retain a coach who was not able to accomplish much with given talent.
Excellent post, BB, IMO.

If WJ surprises and the team is competitive, all the better. If this year is more or less like last (e.g., 6-12 in the P12 or worse), the decision is easy. I think our problem comes if the team goes .500 or close to it overall, and something like 7-11 or even 8-10 in the P12. Then there's enough improvement to argue for continuing, but not enough to instill optimism.
My goodness, if we went 15-16 (overall) and 7-11 (conference), that would be displaying pretty significant improvement over last year's debacle.

My prediction is for 13-18/6-12 and even that is notable improvement... if WJ were to be there and still showing recruiting successes, I think there's no question but that he survives to Year Three (barring any other crises or missteps).

Something like 11-20 / 4-14 and we need to make a change, unless he has solid commitments from 2-3 more TOP players.
helltopay1
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Here's another optic worth considering: prospective candidates will be examining whether the new AD is inclined to give WJ all the available rope or will he display an itchy trigger finger . These candidates know all too well that someday this very same AD will be mulling whether to accommodate his itchy finger or to unravel thge rope to its full length. All candidates will desire thge latter scenario. You don't want to alienate good candidates if you pull the trigger too quickly. and, what I said about one our two talented post players stands. WJ will have that opportunity this fall if we get the two slots back.
calbear80
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Bottom Line:

1. Can we all agree that Mike Williams made a big mistake in hiring this guy without any experience as head coach or even as #2 coach at any level even high school?

2. Can we all agree that a change needs to be made and it is a matter of when and how?

Bring Back Respect To Cal Basketball!

Go Bears!

Big C
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calbear80 said:

Bottom Line:

1. Can we all agree that Mike Williams made a big mistake in hiring this guy without any experience as head coach or even as #2 coach at any level even high school?

2. Can we all agree that a change needs to be made and it is a matter of when and how?

Bring Back Respect To Cal Basketball!

Go Bears!


No, I cannot agree to that. If his recruiting had been going poorly and was still in the doldrums, I would maybe say yes, but now I think we need to wait somewhere between 6-20 months to make that determination.

I'm not sure Williams had a whole lot of options, given the available candidates that we could afford and given our apparent lack of commitment to really win.

Obviously, I don't think Williams did a very good job as AD (though we'll see how Wilcox works out), nor do I think WJ's performance during his first year was anything but poor (except for some decent recruiting). A different choice as HC might have eked out a few more wins, but it was going to be hard to win much with that roster.

We are currently still suffering from the situation Cuonzo Martin left us with.

The mods on this board follow the program closely: Moraga, GregBear and EricBear. They are taking a cautiously optimistic approach right now and I'm there with them. Okay, they can tend to err on the positive side, but they also call it like they see it and I wouldn't describe them as "cheerleaders".
petalumabear
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Big C said:

calbear80 said:

Bottom Line:

1. Can we all agree that Mike Williams made a big mistake in hiring this guy without any experience as head coach or even as #2 coach at any level even high school?

2. Can we all agree that a change needs to be made and it is a matter of when and how?

Bring Back Respect To Cal Basketball!

Go Bears!

The mods on this board follow the program closely: Moraga, GregBear and EricBear. Okay, they can tend to err on the positive side, but they also call it like they see it and I wouldn't describe them as "cheerleaders".
tread cautiously Big C..... you almost pulled a helltopay there....
parentswerebears
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Nope. Can't agree with that. I think you are wrong and I think that this year's team will improve and next year's team will compete. I think as long as this staff stays, we will see improvement.
helltopay1
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Dear Parents: You've come a long way, baby!!!"keep up the good work!!
parentswerebears
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I needed a break because this is what I believe and I was getting exhausted arguing with all of the negabears.
BearGreg
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Staff
Concord - yes, you are correct. Where we had but one premium board for all subjects, we now have two.
Chapman_is_Gone
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parentswerebears said:

I needed a break because this is what I believe and I was getting exhausted arguing with all of the negabears.
Since we're going to resort to calling people dumb names, I must say it gets tiring hearing all of your unsubstantiated silly sunshine pumping as well. You've been co-head pumper on this board for the past year or so. Why don't you go find SonofCalVA and the other previous holders of the top fool position and have a sit-down circle sunshine session? Maybe Mike Williams will join you and you can ruminate on how wise it is to establish your football recruiting base in the South, how defense doesn't matter, and how wise it is to hire a guy who's never been a head basketball coach in his life. It'll all work out swell -- as long as you think positive!!

The "negabears" on this board have been 100% accurate, across the board, since about 2011. You are no more wise than the negabears on this site, although you like to think you are. And you like to think the negabears are miserable and you're happier, but that is not the case. Most negabears still donate, still attend every game, and still love Cal. And while it doesn't make us happy, unlike you, at least we can take some consolation in the fact that WE WERE RIGHT and SonofCalVA is sitting in some dark closet somewhere..
concordtom
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BearGreg said:

Concord - yes, you are correct. Where we had but one premium board for all subjects, we now have two.
Thanks for answering. :-)
parentswerebears
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

parentswerebears said:

I needed a break because this is what I believe and I was getting exhausted arguing with all of the negabears.
Since we're going to resort to calling people dumb names, I must say it gets tiring hearing all of your unsubstantiated silly sunshine pumping as well. You've been co-head pumper on this board for the past year or so. Why don't you go find SonofCalVA and the other previous holders of the top fool position and have a sit-down circle sunshine session? Maybe Mike Williams will join you and you can ruminate on how wise it is to establish your football recruiting base in the South, how defense doesn't matter, and how wise it is to hire a guy who's never been a head basketball coach in his life. It'll all work out swell -- as long as you think positive!!

The "negabears" on this board have been 100% accurate, across the board, since about 2011. You are no more wise than the negabears on this site, although you like to think you are. And you like to think the negabears are miserable and you're happier, but that is not the case. Most negabears still donate, still attend every game, and still love Cal. And while it doesn't make us happy, unlike you, at least we can take some consolation in the fact that WE WERE RIGHT and SonofCalVA is sitting in some dark closet somewhere..


Yep. You win. Y'all have been 100% accurate. How does that feel? At least I have hope that the program is going in the right direction. But you're right.
dal9
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negabears correct since 2011? what did they have to say about the undefeated season at home?
Big C
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

parentswerebears said:

I needed a break because this is what I believe and I was getting exhausted arguing with all of the negabears.
Since we're going to resort to calling people dumb names, I must say it gets tiring hearing all of your unsubstantiated silly sunshine pumping as well. You've been co-head pumper on this board for the past year or so. Why don't you go find SonofCalVA and the other previous holders of the top fool position and have a sit-down circle sunshine session? Maybe Mike Williams will join you and you can ruminate on how wise it is to establish your football recruiting base in the South, how defense doesn't matter, and how wise it is to hire a guy who's never been a head basketball coach in his life. It'll all work out swell -- as long as you think positive!!

The "negabears" on this board have been 100% accurate, across the board, since about 2011. You are no more wise than the negabears on this site, although you like to think you are. And you like to think the negabears are miserable and you're happier, but that is not the case. Most negabears still donate, still attend every game, and still love Cal. And while it doesn't make us happy, unlike you, at least we can take some consolation in the fact that WE WERE RIGHT and SonofCalVA is sitting in some dark closet somewhere..
It's ridiculous to compare a "mainstream optimist" with SonofCalVa. He was an extremist and a nut.
socaliganbear
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If a *new* AD comes in and fires an underperforming coach whom he *didn't* hire, no one will bat an eye. In fact, my guess is folks who follow the program from the outside are already expecting it to a certain extent.
oski003
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Are you donating 1K to Cal Athletics?
calbear80
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socaliganbear said:

If a *new* AD comes in and fires an underperforming coach whom he *didn't* hire, no one will bat an eye. In fact, my guess is folks who follow the program from the outside are already expecting it to a certain extent.


+1

I even go further. If the new AD fails to clean up the biggest mess created by Mike Williams ASAP, he loses much credibility himself as well as losing support for the Athletic Department.
Bobodeluxe
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Why pay for a premium hoops site when everything one need to know is covered in this thread?
BC Calfan
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Bobodeluxe said:

Why pay for a premium hoops site when everything one need to know is covered in this thread?
There's a lot of info that remains on the Insider board. The stuff I appreciate the most is first hand accounts from the coaching staff on player development.

The recruiting news is ok---for me personally, it doesn't mean much when we make offers or make someone's short list of 7 schools and that's something that's touted a lot on the board. You kind of have to manage your own expectations in that regard. I keep hearing, "we have a good chance with this guy" or "his mom really likes us" or "his family values a cal degree"---we've been hearing that for decades and it doesn't mean anything. But, like anything, you can read between the lines and interpret for yourself the status of a player's recruitment.

I'd say the best feature of the board is the lack of clutter. It sticks to the subject. Way less tangents and veering off topic. No incessant, pointless, commentary from serial posters.
BeachedBear
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BC Calfan said:

Bobodeluxe said:

Why pay for a premium hoops site when everything one need to know is covered in this thread?
There's a lot of info that remains on the Insider board. The stuff I appreciate the most is first hand accounts from the coaching staff on player development.

The recruiting news is ok---for me personally, it doesn't mean much when we make offers or make someone's short list of 7 schools and that's something that's touted a lot on the board. You kind of have to manage your own expectations in that regard. I keep hearing, "we have a good chance with this guy" or "his mom really likes us" or "his family values a cal degree"---we've been hearing that for decades and it doesn't mean anything. But, like anything, you can read between the lines and interpret for yourself the status of a player's recruitment.

I'd say the best feature of the board is the lack of clutter. It sticks to the subject. Way less tangents and veering off topic. No incessant, pointless, commentary from serial posters.
I signed up at the beginning of BBall season last year - and I agree wholeheartedly with BC Calfan's summary. A lot of people eat up the recruiting stuff, but it is all hype - what else can it be? When I was in my 20's I enjoyed those things, but nowadays brings more frustration than pleasure - so I tend to skip it.

For me the Insider board's coverage of Football is GREAT - since I tend to stay away from the clutter of Growls (as BC Calfan so eloquently put it).
concordtom
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BC Calfan said:



I'd say the best feature of the board is the lack of clutter. It sticks to the subject. Way less tangents and veering off topic. No incessant, pointless, commentary from serial posters.
I take that as a request for me and Bearister to NOT join and spoil the party.

But, hey, we're out there working the street, gathering the attention of passersby, so don't discount or disrespect the contribution!
Yogi Bear
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BC Calfan said:


I'd say the best feature of the board is the lack of clutter. It sticks to the subject. Way less tangents and veering off topic. No incessant, pointless, commentary from serial posters.
No reason why that stuff shouldn't be cleaned up on all the boards.
Chapman_is_Gone
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Yogi Bear said:

BC Calfan said:


I'd say the best feature of the board is the lack of clutter. It sticks to the subject. Way less tangents and veering off topic. No incessant, pointless, commentary from serial posters.
No reason why that stuff shouldn't be cleaned up on all the boards.
Off-topic is perfectly fine if the owners/admins/mods like it -- for example, Giants vs. Dodgers. It's hypocritical.
SFCityBear
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calbear80 said:

There is a Middle Easton saying which roughly says, "You can tell a good year from it's Spring". 2-17 (worst ever in the history) tells me all I need to know.

Can you (or anyone) show me one single college MBB coach who went 2-17 in the conference in his first year and went on to coach that college to national championships? To make your (or anyone's) effort of researching this worthwhile, for each one example that you find, I will immediately donate $1,000 to Cal Athletics. I bet you cannot find even one example.


Dear Calbear80,

Pete Newell. 1-11 (0.083), 1955

You either don't know this or you haven't done the math. In comparison, Wyking Jones record was a not-so-bad 2-17 (0.105).

In Newell's first season at Cal, 1955, the Bears went 1-11 (0.083) and finished dead last in the PCC Southern Division. In the middle of that stretch, Cal also played two non-conference games, losing to Santa Clara by 7 and losing to USF by 22. That is a 1-13 record (0.071) for the 2nd half of the season. That near complete failure, all with a team which featured a prior All-American, Bob McKeen, and a future All-American, Larry Friend both in the starting lineup. There were a lot of fans and a few sports columnists calling for Newell to be fired immediately, just as you are doing now with Wyking Jones.

Hopefully you know the rest of the story for Pete Newell and Cal: Four NCAAs, Two elite eights, two trips to the NCAA Final game, and one NCAA title.

We Bear Insider fans (at least this one) need to see proof of your $1000 donation to Cal Athletics before we take anything seriously that you might post in the future. A photo of your cancelled check posted here will be acceptable.


Best Regards,


SFCityBear



SFCityBear
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calbear80 said:

What number will the five-star recruit Jordan Brown be wearing for Cal this year? Oh, he chose lesser school Reno and lesser conference rather than playing for this "coach". That is all the evidence that I need regarding recruiting abilities of this "coach" and his staff.

This "coach" was supposed to be bringing in an impact grad transfer this year. What he brought in is some guy who averaged something like two points and one rebound a game (most of it in garbage time). Good recruiter?!! Give me a break!


I'd also question the rush to judgment on Wyking Jones' recruiting ability. Recruiting is not done in a day. Nowadays you have to continually baby-sit a player, get in bed with him and his family and friends, and it can take years. Do you think Cuonzo Martin landed Jaylen Brown overnight? He had been playing him, and likely his mom, for years, to win them over. With Rabb, Cal coaches had been recruiting him for years prior to Martin arriving at Cal, and Rabb's mother was in Cal's corner early. It is all a question of staying in constant touch with a player and befriending him and his family. Meetings, phone calls, social media connections. Jones staff has been in place for only a year. What did Montgomery land in his first season? DJ Seeley who had been recruited and signed by Ben Braun, and Jorge Gutierrez who was unranked. What did Cuonzo land in his first season? Okoroh, Chauca, Tarwater, and Hamilton, a walk-on. None of them was ready to play D1 ball, and only Okoroh was able to improve enough over 2 seasons to be a factor.

In his first try, Jones was able to convince Sueing, JHD and Anticevich to honor their commitment with Cal, while losing Baker to Kentucky, and then lands a good one in McNeill. He loses Moore for Moore's personal reasons. He signs a good point in Austin, but McCullogh and Winston were misses. This season, he lands Bradley, Kelly, and Gordon, and Gordon immediately gets injured. Is that Jones' fault? He had to recruit some bigs, and until you see them play, you really know nothing about them. Remember that Jorge was an unranked player. It is not always the five-star that is the star on your team. And it is very hard to recruit for position, when you have a big need. It took Cuonzo until his 3rd recruiting class to land a point guard, Moore, which he sorely needed.

Recruiting takes time, lots of it, planning and persistence. And remember that most kids are young skulls full of mush, easily influenced and swayed, and there are a lot of sharks out there experienced at reeling these kids in. Jones may have been a good recruiter himself as an assistant, but as a head coach, he has to delegate much of this work to assistants. Let's hope he has good assistants. Give him some time, before you say he can't recruit. And give his recruits some time, before you judge them as well.

I do have plenty of questions about Jones, based on what I saw in games. Lame strategy, confusing tactics in games, and I didn't see much, if any, improvement in individual players over the course of the season. That gives me caution, and troubles me. But I wouldn't fault his recruiting until I see another season or two. However, if he doens't show significant improvement in his coaching, I'd be looking for a new head coach.


helltopay1
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Dear Chapman: You say you are gone---but you insist on coming back. Why is that??
BeachedBear
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helltopay1 said:

Dear Chapman: You say you are gone---but you insist on coming back. Why is that??
Isn't one of the definitions of insanity doing the same thing, repeatedly, but expecting a different result?
joe amos yaks
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I thought that was optimism.
oskidunker
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I thought Gordon was recovering from a prior injiry. Did hebget reinjured? I must have missed itnif he did.
Up with the Blue and Gold. Down with the Red!
SFCityBear
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oskidunker said:

I thought Gordon was recovering from a prior injiry. Did hebget reinjured? I must have missed itnif he did.
Gordon committed to Cal in May 2017, and tore his Achilles in October 2017 about 5 months later. I should not have written that he got injured immediately after Cal landed him. My mistake.
Chapman_is_Gone
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helltopay1 said:

Dear Chapman: You say you are gone---but you insist on coming back. Why is that??
Because I'm a huge Cal fan (and donor), thanks for asking buddy!
oskidunker
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many years ago running back Lindsey Chapman was known to break long runs for touchdowns. Starkey would yell, " Chapman is gone". I think thats where he got this screen name.
Up with the Blue and Gold. Down with the Red!
BearSD
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Quote:

But back to your point of focus on MBB coaching. Since it's off-off-off season, I'll lay some odds for you to chew on.

1. Duplicate of last season's ineptness - a.k.a. "****storm" - 25%
2. Showing enough progress to continue recruiting hopes - a.k.a. "polished turd" - 66%
3. Impressive showing with underrated roster - a.k.a. "diamond in the rough" - 9%

I'm being generous with #3. I really don't think there is a chance in heck that it will happen. I also think the interesting aspect of #1 - and what I'd like to hear your cogent response about - is what/when/how things happen if last year is duplicated. Is it an early exit? after the season? sometime mid-year? Will there be an incident, like Lou Campanelli? Or a scandal, like Bozeman?

If #1 happens -- it will be more like the end of Braun's tenure, the AD will reach out to donors and get pledges for enough money to cover the buyout, then buy WJ out soon after the Bears' last game in the conference tournament.

If #2 happens -- WJ gets a third year even though no one is really happy about it.

I'd love to see #3, but don't think there's enough talent on the roster to finish in the top half of the Pac-12 even if we had an all-time great head coach running the show.
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