Rehire Ben Braun?

Chapman_is_Gone
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Big C said:

SFCityBear said:

south bender said:

Only coach at Cal to get beaten time after time by Monty.
How did Monty do that? I read many times where he couldn't recruit.
I believe he has been quoted as saying that, once he got them winning a bit, Stanford pretty much recruited itself. And thus he was surprised when that didn't work so well here. I hate to admit that they have more allure than we do, but to a small specific niche of people (good athlete/good student/impressed by the Ivies and private schools), they probably do, nationally.

the *******s

(censored word's first three letters were "b", "a" and "s"
Can I buy a vowel? An o?



LOL I just noticed that when you quote someone and you're typing up your own reply, you can see the censored word clear as day until you hit submit.. ****ing awesome!
wifeisafurd
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fat_slice said:

I'm sorry did Montgomery get us to a sweet sixteen or an nit championship? Braun in a heart beat given current situation
Did Braun come close to winning a conference championship? Braun barely won half his conference games, and got to the sweet 16 his first year with Bozeman's talent. And then came a lot of losing seasons, with no post-season. Monty won almost 2/3 of his conference games and went to post season every year. Unlike Braun, he graduated players. Braun had several years where is graduation rate was zero. ZERO. Monty is a hall of fame coach. The problem is Monty is a stop gap, at his age. Braun simply is a non-stater due to his inability to graduate players, and would be considered a retread by recruits. Braun is a nice guy, but he burned bridges at Cal.
helltopay1
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Dear Wife: A little more specific, please. I'm curious. Describe one or two of thge bridges burned.
Civil Bear
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wifeisafurd said:

Did Braun come close to winning a conference championship?

Yes actually. I unfortunately recall only too well Cal giving up a double-digit second-half lead at home to UCLA and an unconscious Gilbert Arenas only to lose out on a conference championship.
KenBurnski
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Dear Mr. Hell,

What is the name of that axe murderer show? It sounds pretty awesome. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Mr. Burnski
TheSouseFamily
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ColoradoBear said:

south bender said:

I was just trying to inject some reality in this retrospective praise of a middling coach.





Anyone remember this game?
https://calbears.com/news/2000/2/19/207748817.aspx?path=mbball



LOL. The headline writer and I have a different perspective on what a "stumble" is. A more appropriate headline would have "Cal completely $h!t$ the bed against Stanford."
wifeisafurd
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south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
wifeisafurd
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Civil Bear said:

wifeisafurd said:

Did Braun come close to winning a conference championship?

Yes actually. I unfortunately recall only too well Cal giving up a double-digit second-half lead at home to UCLA and an unconscious Gilbert Arenas only to lose out on a conference championship.
Your right he can a couple games short. I just don't think the two coaches are remotely close in terms of success and Braun is never coming back due to his often poor graduation rate. Times have changed in that regard.
Big C
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wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
Growler91
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Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
It is a big credit to Ben Braun that he came back just to be a part of the Berkeley community. That's pretty cool and says a lot about the guy. But we're not going to bring back Lou Campanelli either.
Jackieridgle
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oskidunker said:

He looks good right now. Wouldn't be the first time a fired coach has been rehired in College Basketball. I mean we heap honors on him and introduce his sweet sixteen team.

Post game interviews were not great, however.


He a super-weirdo and not in a good way. There's always going to those who lobby for Braun/Pasternak. No thanks!
Jackieridgle
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wifeisafurd said:

Rather rehire Monty with some recruiters as assistants.

That is the formula, for sure. Too bad, Monty is too stubborn to hire super-recruiters.
Yogi Bear
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Jackieridgle said:


He a super-weirdo and not in a good way. There's always going to those who lobby for Braun/Pasternak. No thanks!
Fortunately for us, relatives and in-laws of those guys are not too numerous.
SFCityBear
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Jackieridgle said:

oskidunker said:

He looks good right now. Wouldn't be the first time a fired coach has been rehired in College Basketball. I mean we heap honors on him and introduce his sweet sixteen team.

Post game interviews were not great, however.


He a super-weirdo and not in a good way. There's always going to those who lobby for Braun/Pasternak. No thanks!
I was often critical of Braun's coaching, but he did clean up the basketball program, which was in the NCAA probation toilet after Todd Bozeman. I have no desire to see Braun coach at Cal again, because he had a ceiling well below the expectations of most of us Cal fans. Yet Braun was an above average Cal basketball coach, above average for Cal, that is. For those who long for the past over the debacle Cuonzo left us with, who would you have them lobby for, Rene, Dick Edwards, or Dick Kuchen?

Braun was what he was. But super-weirdo? And in a bad way? Why do you say that? What evidence do you have? Otherwise, it is nothing more than trash talk, about a coach who is not pursuing the job at Cal, to my knowledge, or maybe about Cal fans who have a good memory of him. In either case, trash talk about Braun is not welcome. He only sadly disappointed us, but he did not cause much damage to the program as some previous Cal coaches have done.







UrsaMajor
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SFCityBear said:

Jackieridgle said:

oskidunker said:

He looks good right now. Wouldn't be the first time a fired coach has been rehired in College Basketball. I mean we heap honors on him and introduce his sweet sixteen team.

Post game interviews were not great, however.


He a super-weirdo and not in a good way. There's always going to those who lobby for Braun/Pasternak. No thanks!
I was often critical of Braun's coaching, but he did clean up the basketball program, which was in the NCAA probation toilet after Todd Bozeman. I have no desire to see Braun coach at Cal again, because he had a ceiling well below the expectations of most of us Cal fans. Yet Braun was an above average Cal basketball coach, above average for Cal, that is. For those who long for the past over the debacle Cuonzo left us with, who would you have them lobby for, Rene, Dick Edwards, or Dick Kuchen?









Given the fact that Dick Edwards is dead, he'd be an intriguing choice.
SFCityBear
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UrsaMajor said:

SFCityBear said:

Jackieridgle said:

oskidunker said:

He looks good right now. Wouldn't be the first time a fired coach has been rehired in College Basketball. I mean we heap honors on him and introduce his sweet sixteen team.

Post game interviews were not great, however.


He a super-weirdo and not in a good way. There's always going to those who lobby for Braun/Pasternak. No thanks!
I was often critical of Braun's coaching, but he did clean up the basketball program, which was in the NCAA probation toilet after Todd Bozeman. I have no desire to see Braun coach at Cal again, because he had a ceiling well below the expectations of most of us Cal fans. Yet Braun was an above average Cal basketball coach, above average for Cal, that is. For those who long for the past over the debacle Cuonzo left us with, who would you have them lobby for, Rene, Dick Edwards, or Dick Kuchen?









Given the fact that Dick Edwards is dead, he'd be an intriguing choice.
In that case, I should have had Newell on the list. Then the choice would be easy for us old-timers, at least. Anyway, thanks for the update. I think Edwards was hired to right the ship after the tumultuous last years of Herrerias and all the racial unrest within the athletic department.
UrsaMajor
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I'm totally behind Newell as coach. Even in his current state he'd easily be one of the top 10 nationally.
helltopay1
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Dear Jackie: i will admit that braun was different in some ways , but good differences and bad differences are usually in thge eye of the beholder. Please explain in detail what you mean. I am curious. You must have some inside information.
calumnus
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UrsaMajor said:

I'm totally behind Newell as coach. Even in his current state he'd easily be one of the top 10 nationally.


Let's add John Wooden to the list.
calumnus
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south bender said:

Only coach at Cal to get beaten time after time by Monty.


Monty did not have a winning record against Stanford either.
calumnus
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helltopay1 said:

Dear Big C: Think of how incredibly silly and inconsistent our society is. Every day on TV, we see 100,000 people get slaughtered by a deranged maniac slaughtering 100,000 people with a blood-soaked axe, and yet, we cannot see thge word b*****d in print because that would be a bridge too far. To repeat for the hundredth time, Money recruited well at Stanford because Stanford recruits itself. You have to recruit hard at Cal, and Monty simply was not used to recruiting, nor did he have the personality for the undertaking. Also, he was a little long in the tooth when he arrived and lacked thge necessary testoserone for thge undertaking. ( spelling?)


In the early 90's a consultant was hired by the Stanford AD to give the coaches a seminar in sales training to be used in recruiting. Bill Walsh, with three Super Bowl rings, took extensive notes, asked questions and set up follow up meetings with the consultant and all his coaches. Tara Vandaveer, just coming off two National Championships, also took extensive notes and set up follow up meetings. Monty sat with his arms crossed, looked bored, and left the room before the seminar was over. Great (Hall of Fame) coach (especially X's and O's) - he is very honest (sometimes to a fault) and has always been frank about his distaste for recruiting. He is now 25 years older....
wifeisafurd
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Growler91 said:

Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
It is a big credit to Ben Braun that he came back just to be a part of the Berkeley community. That's pretty cool and says a lot about the guy. But we're not going to bring back Lou Campanelli either.
Another guy at games is Dick Kutchen. Both Ben and Dick are really approachable, good guys. Ben isn't going to get another shot because of the academic record his players had, and at 64, I don't think he wants to in any event. He had a good run. Same thing with Monty, just don't see him wanting the aggravation at his age.

In the event Jones goes, whether Monty's head assistant, Travis DeCuire, would consider returning and leaving his alma mater Montana? In 4 years he has won a couple of Big Sky championships (with a stinker year sandwiched in there as well).
calumnus
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Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close.


If Monty gets credit for POY Jerome Randle playing for him, then Braun definitely gets credit for recruiting him. In which case Braun also gets credit for POY Ed Gray playing for him.

And if Nowitski or LeBron had played in college....



calumnus
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wifeisafurd said:

Growler91 said:

Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
It is a big credit to Ben Braun that he came back just to be a part of the Berkeley community. That's pretty cool and says a lot about the guy. But we're not going to bring back Lou Campanelli either.
Another guy at games is Dick Kutchen. Both Ben and Dick are really approachable, good guys. Ben isn't going to get another shot because of the academic record his players had, and at 64, I don't think he wants to in any event. He had a good run. Same thing with Monty, just don't see him wanting the aggravation at his age.

In the event Jones goes, whether Monty's head assistant, Travis DeCuire, would consider returning and leaving his alma mater Montana? In 4 years he has won a couple of Big Sky championships (with a stinker year sandwiched in there as well).


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
Yogi Bear
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calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
calumnus
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Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire


Agreed but if by that you mean DeCuire should not even be on the list of candidates to talk with, I stand corrected.

Yogi Bear
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calumnus said:

Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
Agreed but if by that you mean DeCuire should not even be on the list of candidates to talk with, I stand corrected.
I wouldn't mind talking with him, but he wouldn't be my first choice. He'd at least be a consideration now, whereas when Monty wanted him to take over for him it was too soon. He needed to prove himself at a lower level first, especially since he wasn't a strong recruiter for us.

Recruiting would be 75% of my interview with him. It's the only thing of the Wyking Jones era that has had some success (just not recently).
SFCityBear
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Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
Maybe you have a shot at the job. I wouldn't want a coach who doesn't have high aspirations to coach at Cal. Send us your CV.
SFCityBear
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calumnus said:

UrsaMajor said:

I'm totally behind Newell as coach. Even in his current state he'd easily be one of the top 10 nationally.


Let's add John Wooden to the list.
Or Red Auerbach.
UrsaMajor
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wifeisafurd said:

Growler91 said:

Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
It is a big credit to Ben Braun that he came back just to be a part of the Berkeley community. That's pretty cool and says a lot about the guy. But we're not going to bring back Lou Campanelli either.
Another guy at games is Dick Kutchen. Both Ben and Dick are really approachable, good guys. Ben isn't going to get another shot because of the academic record his players had, and at 64, I don't think he wants to in any event. He had a good run. Same thing with Monty, just don't see him wanting the aggravation at his age.

In the event Jones goes, whether Monty's head assistant, Travis DeCuire, would consider returning and leaving his alma mater Montana? In 4 years he has won a couple of Big Sky championships (with a stinker year sandwiched in there as well).
I agree that Kuchen was a great guy, but totally overmatched as a coach. When he was coaching I had the opportunity to play in a a few pick-up games at Harmon with him (he prided himself as being the tallest player around who never could dunk--he's about 6-5). We got to talking about coaching and he complained that he had "no idea" how to motivate young athletes at that time. He also allowed as how it was "impossible" to recruit elite players to Cal because Berkeley couldn't compete with desirable places such as Los Angeles. When I asked him what was so desirable about Milwaukee (Marquette was a Final Four team that year) or Lawrence, KS, he kind of turned away...
Big C
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UrsaMajor said:

wifeisafurd said:

Growler91 said:

Big C said:

wifeisafurd said:

south bender said:

It did take Monty some time to get on a roll at the Farm. And no question Stanford has more allure than UCB.
Monty recruited two Pac 12 players of the year and had a third play for him in his short tenure? How many did Ben recruit and have play for him in much longer tenure at Cal?
Only Sean Lampley, but I believe Joe Shipp and Leon Powe each came very close. Look, no debate who the better coach was. Monty was better in his second-best gig than Braun was in his best.

However, Braun didn't exactly suck here and Monty didn't quite live up to what we had hoped for, so it's not too hard to argue that there wasn't a huge difference in their Cal accomplishments. Monty clearly somewhat better here, though, no question.
It is a big credit to Ben Braun that he came back just to be a part of the Berkeley community. That's pretty cool and says a lot about the guy. But we're not going to bring back Lou Campanelli either.
Another guy at games is Dick Kutchen. Both Ben and Dick are really approachable, good guys. Ben isn't going to get another shot because of the academic record his players had, and at 64, I don't think he wants to in any event. He had a good run. Same thing with Monty, just don't see him wanting the aggravation at his age.

In the event Jones goes, whether Monty's head assistant, Travis DeCuire, would consider returning and leaving his alma mater Montana? In 4 years he has won a couple of Big Sky championships (with a stinker year sandwiched in there as well).
I agree that Kuchen was a great guy, but totally overmatched as a coach. When he was coaching I had the opportunity to play in a a few pick-up games at Harmon with him (he prided himself as being the tallest player around who never could dunk--he's about 6-5). We got to talking about coaching and he complained that he had "no idea" how to motivate young athletes at that time. He also allowed as how it was "impossible" to recruit elite players to Cal because Berkeley couldn't compete with desirable places such as Los Angeles. When I asked him what was so desirable about Milwaukee (Marquette was a Final Four team that year) or Lawrence, KS, he kind of turned away...
I take minimal pride in being one of the more knowledgeable people around when it comes to the Kuchen Era (such as it was) at Cal. Regrettably, this accomplishment has brought me neither money, nor fame, nor chicks, but it is what it is.

Okay, so Kuch (closer to 6-8, btw) was never considered to be that great a coach at this level (and that might even be said euphemistically), but he was a decent guy and semi-competent. His players tended to improve in their time at Cal and they usually played unselfishly. At the end of Kuchen's reign, the program was in slightly better shape than when he started.

His comment about having "no idea" how to motivate young athletes was certainly an off-the-cuff remark, but it might've been right about the time he was trying to get Sam Potter off his azz and motivated. Reportedly, though, Kuchen didn't run the tightest of ships, and then would get mad when he felt he was being taken advantage of.

In terms of recruiting, he NEVER had more than 5-6 Pac-Ten-quality players on the roster... and 1-2 of them were usually injured, to boot. Some of the scrubs that were forced into action were plenty game, but oh-so-lame. However, Kuchen did manage to lure some pretty good, fairly highly recruited players to Cal, most notably, Michael Pitts, Butch Hayes, Kevin Johnson, Chris Washington, Dave Butler and Leonard Taylor (the last four helped Campanelli hit the ground running, after Kuchen was let go). His player who had the single best season, Mark McNamara, transferred to Cal from Santa Clara after two years (and had a fantastic senior season after a pretty good junior season).
Yogi Bear
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SFCityBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
Maybe you have a shot at the job.
I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about wanting a better coach than DeCuire.
Civil Bear
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Yogi Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
Maybe you have a shot at the job.
I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about wanting a better coach than DeCuire.
Simply amazing that needed to be said.
oskidunker
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I vote for Shocky.
The Bear will not Quit. The Bear will not die but Bart will continue to lie.
SFCityBear
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Yogi Bear said:

SFCityBear said:

Yogi Bear said:

calumnus said:


I think everyone on this board thinks we should at least be talking with DeCuire to gauge his interest.
I have greater aspirations than DeCuire
Maybe you have a shot at the job.
I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about wanting a better coach than DeCuire.
It was an ambiguous statement that could be taken several ways, so thank you for clearing that up about what you meant.

Personally, I would take DeCuire in a heartbeat over what we saw last season. If I was going to hire an assistant coach with no head coaching experience I would look a lot more closely at a Mike Montgomery assistant than I would at a Cuonzo Martin assistant. Cuonzo Martin was a mediocre to poor head coach, and proved to be a good Cal recruiter only one year out of four. (Jury still out on Jemarl Baker) Quite frankly, on offense, Cuonzo Martin could not coach his way out of a paper bag. What could his assistants learn from him?
And we saw the results last season, by hiring a Martin assistant. He has a steep learning curve to become what we want.

On the other hand, a Mike Montgomery assistant might be able to learn plenty on both offense and defense from a future Hall of Fame coach. As to recruiting, Montgomery recruited well only one year out of 6 at Cal, 2013, plus earlier gems like Jorge, Cobbs and Crabbe.

I understand your wanting a better coach than DeCuire, I guess, but what from his only head coaching experience, his current record at Montana, makes you think he is not a good enough coach for Cal?

DeCuire has been at Montana for 4 years. In that time, he had an 83-49 record, 0.629 winning percentage, won 2 conference championships, one conference tournament title and had one NCAA appearance. His best team was 26-8, a 0.765 winning percentage.

Another young coach with no head coaching experience was once hired to coach at Montana. His name was Mike Montgomery, and his record in his first 4 seasons at Montana was 67-43, a 0.609 winning percentage. He won no conference championships and had no NCAA appearances in that time. Travis DeCuire's record over his first four years at Montana was much better than Mike Montgomery's first 4 years at Montana.

Montgomery's next four years at Montana were very good, 87-34, and over 8 years at Montana his record was 154-77, a 0.667 percentage, and he won one conference championships, but had no NCAA appearances.

I would make the point that Stanford took a chance on a coach from a minor conference who had some good seasons there, and after some more experience in the PAC10, Mike Montgomery rewarded Stanford with some very good teams and seasons. Travis DeCuire has had a better record at Montana than Montgomery did in his first 4 years, so what would lead us to think that Travis DeCuire could not become the coach that Montgomery was at the PAC12 level, or better, if given the chance? I would not sell DeCuire short, if I were Cal. He should be under consideration, if not now, then in the future, if he continues his success at Montana or elsewhere.







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