The USF Game: Huge

2,768 Views | 13 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by OneKeg
Big C
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We could really use a win, but we at least need to play hard, play smart and show some good chemistry. A bad loss, like some of the ones we had last year, might be tough to overcome. I will be watching closely (and cheering on the guys). Come on out!

Go Bears!
OneKeg
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I'll be there with a buddy - too late a start time for my son.

I don't see the Bears winning this one. Hope I'm wrong, or even if I'm right that we keep it from getting embarrassing as the St. Mary's game was for much of the duration. (Please - use this as locker room material and win).

I think the Stanford and SDSU squeaker upsets that we had last year were because those teams understandably took us lightly while we played well. USF is decent but not good enough historically (ok, recent history) to take us lightly. They will be up for this game.

Dons are favored by 6.5 at the site I am looking at. I never bet against Cal (or bet much at all these days), and probably wouldn't touch this game anyway, but with a gun to my head, I would lean betting USF and laying the points.

Talent may be roughly even (may be generous to Cal) but USF will have experience and coaching advantages. Only thing that gives me hope is just how easy the Dons' opponents were for their 7 wins. They had a game against Arizona State get cancelled due to the fire smoke. They did just lose a close one to a pretty good (believe it or not) Buffalo team to leave them at 7-1.

Come on Bears. Prove me wrong.
bearister
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Jeff Faraudo: Cal doing fans a favor by engaging all Bay Area teams


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2018/12/04/the-great-favor-cal-is-doing-for-college-basketball-in-the-bay-area/amp/
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Yogi Is King
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bearister said:

Jeff Faraudo: Cal doing fans a favor by engaging all Bay Area teams


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2018/12/04/the-great-favor-cal-is-doing-for-college-basketball-in-the-bay-area/amp/
I applaud The Coach That Mike Williams Hired for being willing to play these teams. It's probably the last time I'll applaud him this year.
OneKeg
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I said I didn't see Cal winning this one, so no surprise there. But being blown out by 29 (before garbage time started and USF brought in their scrubs for McNeil to finally get some 3s on) was not good. You could sense the utter apathy in the stands, except from a handful of USF faithful.

Sure there was an experience gap. But mostly, it was a coaching gap.

It's almost comical watching us dribbling ourselves into trouble against a zone. I think it was three quarters of the way into the game and we had only got it into the high post to collapse the zone once. Not that we did much better against man. On The other end, not blocking out on rebounds... USF getting catch-and-shoot in-rhythm threes at will.

Sure it was the players making these mistakes but I feel for them. Some of them were trying hard (Kelly). But these are Jones' players, and the coaches have not been able to instill basketball fundamentals in this team. For a counter-example, just look at the Dons. They have some sophomores too. But they run an effective offense given their skills. Which means the only way they were going to lose to us was if they missed all their wide-open threes. Oh well.
Big C
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I just like having this thread near my similarly-titled one, for dramatic effect and for the irony of it all.
SFCityBear
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OneKeg said:

I said I didn't see Cal winning this one, so no surprise there. But being blown out by 29 (before garbage time started and USF brought in their scrubs for McNeil to finally get some 3s on) was not good. You could sense the utter apathy in the stands, except from a handful of USF faithful.

Sure there was an experience gap. But mostly, it was a coaching gap.

It's almost comical watching us dribbling ourselves into trouble against a zone. I think it was three quarters of the way into the game and we had only got it into the high post to collapse the zone once. Not that we did much better against man. On The other end, not blocking out on rebounds... USF getting catch-and-shoot in-rhythm threes at will.

Sure it was the players making these mistakes but I feel for them. Some of them were trying hard (Kelly). But these are Jones' players, and the coaches have not been able to instill basketball fundamentals in this team. For a counter-example, just look at the Dons. They have some sophomores too. But they run an effective offense given their skills. Which means the only way they were going to lose to us was if they missed all their wide-open threes. Oh well.
This doesn't all boil down to a "coaching gap." With all due respect, that is way too simplistic. This is a bit more complicated problem. If the teams were similar in age, size and experience and this is the way they looked playing each other, I'd say yes, there is a coaching gap.

Also, you have played a little loose with some facts. Yes, it is true that USF has some sophomores, but they started two juniors, Lull and Ratinho, and two seniors, Ferrari and Renfro. The only sophomore who started was Minlend, who is a redshirt sophomore. He had a good freshman season, got hurt and had to sit out all last season. So he has been in the program for over two years, learning and growing mentally at least. The USF 6th man, Bouyea, is a soph. USF ran basically a 6 man rotation getting most of the minutes, with senior McCarthy and junior Retainen getting an additional 11 minutes each. Three others played 3-4 minutes in garbage time, including a soph and two freshmen. The point is that USF is a very experienced veteran team for the most part. The only true soph who plays is Bouyea, and he comes off the bench. Cal starts two freshman, two sophs, and one redshirt junior. USF's freshmen and sophomores (except for Bouyea and the redshirt Minland) played only in garbage time.

USF coach Kyle Smith was a very successful head coach at Columbia and an associate head coach in charge of offense at St. Marys. He already knows how to be a head coach. He has had all the players in his rotation for over two years, so it should be no wonder his offense looks good and is effective. Wyking Jones was hired at Cal with no offensive coaching or head coaching experience that I know of. He has to learn on the fly. Jones has had only 6 players for one season, and of those only three, McNeill, Sueing, and JHD (who wasn't at full strength) played any substantial minutes for Cal. Austin was practicing only, and Anticevich and Davis seldom played any meaningful minutes. And two of these players, McNeill and Sueing are forced to learn and play new positions, due to Cal's lack of big men.

Looking again at the disparity of the two rosters, the glaring difference not only players with experience and a coach with experience, but also height of the players in the front court. USF has 6 players 6'-8" and taller, while Cal has three. Of the bigs who start and play significant minutes, USF has two, a senior and a junior, while Cal has one, a freshman. Of the bigs who play minutes, USF has four, two seniors and two juniors, while Cal has two, both freshmen.

It was just the men against the boys in the USF-Cal game. Cal does not look good playing, and other teams can easily get Cal off their game with defense or offense. But it isn't fair to render final judgment on Wyking Jones based on the first few games. Some people who write here think it is easy to train players with few fundamentals and some bad habits into good D1 players on a good D1 team overnight. Jones is playing two freshmen, and he has only a fe weeks to teach them fundamentals, along with teaching them everything else. It is not, and probably any coach will tell you that. It took three full years and two coaches to break a very good player, Jerome Randle of trying to split defenders by tossing the ball between them and then trying to catch up to it before a defender did. He loss the ball every time, but he insisted on doing it. As a senior, he stopped doing it, and we all know what kind of player he was that year. Wyking Jones may be a terrible head coach, and what you see is all you are going to get from him. But until his players become juniors and seniors, and he no longer has any excuse, then you will truly know if he has the stuff or not.




SFCityBear
oskidunker
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Not willing to wait three years and hope what we see will be different.

1. The team does not play hard.
2. There is no in game coaching . Jones sits there and does nothing
3. Starters are not benched no matter how poor they play.
4. There is no offensive game plan other than The Louisville system of dribble your ass off and shoot a contested shot. We can't get all 5=star players Necessary to run this.
5. No intensity or plan on defense. No improvement from last year. Three point shooters still wide open
6.jones now blames the players. Then play the walk ins until they play better. So what we still lose.
7.Revenue sucks. No one is going and it will get worse
8. Recruits and current players may leave once they realize there is no chance of winning
9. Major donors will not fund a practice facility unless Jones is replaced
10. Exposure is bad. Espn will not telivise a bad team, unless they have to. All games on pac12 net this year


C




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OneKeg
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SFCityBear said:

OneKeg said:

I said I didn't see Cal winning this one, so no surprise there. But being blown out by 29 (before garbage time started and USF brought in their scrubs for McNeil to finally get some 3s on) was not good. You could sense the utter apathy in the stands, except from a handful of USF faithful.

Sure there was an experience gap. But mostly, it was a coaching gap.

It's almost comical watching us dribbling ourselves into trouble against a zone. I think it was three quarters of the way into the game and we had only got it into the high post to collapse the zone once. Not that we did much better against man. On The other end, not blocking out on rebounds... USF getting catch-and-shoot in-rhythm threes at will.

Sure it was the players making these mistakes but I feel for them. Some of them were trying hard (Kelly). But these are Jones' players, and the coaches have not been able to instill basketball fundamentals in this team. For a counter-example, just look at the Dons. They have some sophomores too. But they run an effective offense given their skills. Which means the only way they were going to lose to us was if they missed all their wide-open threes. Oh well.
This doesn't all boil down to a "coaching gap." With all due respect, that is way too simplistic. This is a bit more complicated problem. If the teams were similar in age, size and experience and this is the way they looked playing each other, I'd say yes, there is a coaching gap.

Also, you have played a little loose with some facts. Yes, it is true that USF has some sophomores, but they started two juniors, Lull and Ratinho, and two seniors, Ferrari and Renfro. The only sophomore who started was Minlend, who is a redshirt sophomore. He had a good freshman season, got hurt and had to sit out all last season. So he has been in the program for over two years, learning and growing mentally at least. The USF 6th man, Bouyea, is a soph. USF ran basically a 6 man rotation getting most of the minutes, with senior McCarthy and junior Retainen getting an additional 11 minutes each. Three others played 3-4 minutes in garbage time, including a soph and two freshmen. The point is that USF is a very experienced veteran team for the most part. The only true soph who plays is Bouyea, and he comes off the bench. Cal starts two freshman, two sophs, and one redshirt junior. USF's freshmen and sophomores (except for Bouyea and the redshirt Minland) played only in garbage time.

USF coach Kyle Smith was a very successful head coach at Columbia and an associate head coach in charge of offense at St. Marys. He already knows how to be a head coach. He has had all the players in his rotation for over two years, so it should be no wonder his offense looks good and is effective. Wyking Jones was hired at Cal with no offensive coaching or head coaching experience that I know of. He has to learn on the fly. Jones has had only 6 players for one season, and of those only three, McNeill, Sueing, and JHD (who wasn't at full strength) played any substantial minutes for Cal. Austin was practicing only, and Anticevich and Davis seldom played any meaningful minutes. And two of these players, McNeill and Sueing are forced to learn and play new positions, due to Cal's lack of big men.

Looking again at the disparity of the two rosters, the glaring difference not only players with experience and a coach with experience, but also height of the players in the front court. USF has 6 players 6'-8" and taller, while Cal has three. Of the bigs who start and play significant minutes, USF has two, a senior and a junior, while Cal has one, a freshman. Of the bigs who play minutes, USF has four, two seniors and two juniors, while Cal has two, both freshmen.

It was just the men against the boys in the USF-Cal game. Cal does not look good playing, and other teams can easily get Cal off their game with defense or offense. But it isn't fair to render final judgment on Wyking Jones based on the first few games. Some people who write here think it is easy to train players with few fundamentals and some bad habits into good D1 players on a good D1 team overnight. Jones is playing two freshmen, and he has only a fe weeks to teach them fundamentals, along with teaching them everything else. It is not, and probably any coach will tell you that. It took three full years and two coaches to break a very good player, Jerome Randle of trying to split defenders by tossing the ball between them and then trying to catch up to it before a defender did. He loss the ball every time, but he insisted on doing it. As a senior, he stopped doing it, and we all know what kind of player he was that year. Wyking Jones may be a terrible head coach, and what you see is all you are going to get from him. But until his players become juniors and seniors, and he no longer has any excuse, then you will truly know if he has the stuff or not.
Thanks for the response SFCity -

I don't really disagree with some of your post. Good point on the seniors and juniors on the Dons' roster. I just was going off my initial glance, noting that 2 of the Dons' top 6 scorers were sophomores, including Minlend, their leading scorer, but you're right that overall, USF is more experienced.

However:
- The bolded part on Kyle Smith is part of my point about the coaching gap! This (USF) is what a well-coached team looks like. Hence the coaching gap - and I mean coaching gap *right now*. I am not discounting for Wyking's lack of experience, I am saying there is a coaching gap right this instant. USF made some mistakes, but overall clearly had bought into a good plan from Coach Smith. You could see it in how they moved the ball, moved without the ball, and responded themselves to ball movement on defense. After a year and a quarter, Cal, to my untrained eye, does not look like they have any more of a clue on offense or defense than they did last year.
- Sure some players like Randle got much better as they became seniors. Players like Sueing and McNeil seem to be regressing, anecdotally. Perhaps I'm wrong on that.
- The Cal-USF game did not look like men against boys to me. It looked like young men that had bought into a good plan against slightly younger men who had not bought into a plan (of indeterminate quality).
- Maybe it's simple-minded envy on my part? I look throughout college basketball, ignoring for a moment the obvious powerhouses who bring in one-and-done players non-stop. There are teams that are winning with freshmen and sophomores. Having freshmen and sophomores does not always mean you are destined to be terrible. Let's just take Arizona State. No one would confuse the Sun Devils for a perennial basketball powerhouse. Yet they are 7-0 and playing well. And they are dominated by freshmen and sophomores (not sure which ones are redshirts): Dort is a freshman, Lawrence is a sophomore, Martin is a sophomore, Cherry is a freshman, White is a sophomore. That's the majority of their rotation!
- If it's a talent issue (which you didn't say it was other than maybe height/length), then that is starting to be on Jones too since these are his players.
- You said some people think it is easy to train young players into good habits and schemes. I don't think most of us do. I know it is hard, but that's the job head coaches are paid 7-figures to do! My job is hard too - designing and releasing a complicated software product that we sell to customers and support/enhance for a subscription fee of 6 or 7 figures usually per customer. When we do poorly, our customers let us know. In response, I can't just then say, "well sorry I have a tough job... it's not as easy as it looks... there are reasons... I'd like to see you try." Our customers (often) have a point, and I and my colleagues need to make it right. If we don't, we lose customers and stop gaining new ones. Well, I am a customer of Cal sports. I have ESP tickets for football and basketball season tickets. I donate north of $10k to Cal overall (a little over half to athletics, the rest to academic programs). So I'm small fry, but not nothing. Wyking Jones gets paid 7 figures (I think?). And here I am saying: "I see a problem with the coaching, especially in contrast with obviously good coaches like Kyle Smith (hence the coaching gap)." I am not an expert in basketball coaching, but then neither are my customers who at times criticize my software product experts in software. I doubt they think software design and development is easy either, but that doesn't stop them criticizing. This is where I am coming from. If the decision is "Wyking Jones needs more time," it better end up being the right decision or Cal basketball at least will lose me as a customer.

Sorry for the long post. Go Bears!
Civil Bear
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Inexperienced coach + inexperienced team = Cal Bears = BDW
bearister
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Somebody on the Celtics staff in a big hurry cured Jaylen Brown of driving down the center of the paint in a straight line knocking defenders over like so many bowling pins and getting in early foul trouble. Some of this stuff is not rocket science.
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helltopay1
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i'm with SFCB. Way, way too early to change horses in midstream. We are young and undersized without depth. austin is not really a PG. Sueing and Kelly are playing out of position. Kids come to college programs these days with little or no fundamental teachings or skills. We have no back-up PG. When mcNeil backs up Austin at the PG position, he has to change his mind-set from being a SG to a PG. Wait until WJ has all the horses he needs. Then, and only then, do we make an informed choice. Because of little depth, WJ has to change defenses way too often during a game . This is not conducive to a reliable defense. maybe I'm in love with tall black guys with bald heads. or maybe I won't evaluate a guy until he has all the horses with proper experience. I guess I'm funny that way.
oskidunker
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I give up.
Bring back It’s It’s to Haas Pavillion!
bearister
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If some other coach could right the ship now, that would be one thing. No way is that possible. Who is going to be HC, one of the clipboard holders? My guess is we will all draw the same conclusion at the end of this season. All talk of firing the coach before the end of the season is hot air.
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OneKeg
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Yep, to be clear, my post above also was NOT a "fire Jones right now post." But it was a "sure looks to me like Cal has poor coaching" post. If Jones proves me wrong, great. Let's start against the Aztecs. I'll be there.
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