Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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I'm going to say this again. Cal normally doesn't fill their class. When they do, normally they get at least one, if not more, players who are total reaches who do not contribute very much, often eating up a scholarship for 4 years. Look at every one and done or two and done player we have ever recruited and tell me what the better option is that we passed up on.

It is easy to say, gee, maybe it would have been better in the long run to get a 4 year player who makes a solid contribution instead of one year of Jaylen Brown, but we didn't even give out all of our scholarships that year, so if we didn't bring in Brown the alternative was nobody. If Cal is ever deciding whether to offer Theo Robertson Junior or Jaylen Brown Junior, we can talk. It has yet to happen. I might take Theo in that case depending on the circumstances (I'd probably like a class of 3 Theo's and a Jaylen). But it is a false argument at this point.

Nobody has ever answered me with a player we should have taken instead of our one or two and dones that we actually had an option to take. You can't fill your roster with theoretical players.

OaktownBear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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I'm going to say this again. Cal normally doesn't fill their class. When they do, normally they get at least one, if not more, players who are total reaches who do not contribute very much, often eating up a scholarship for 4 years. Look at every one and done or two and done player we have ever recruited and tell me what the better option is that we passed up on.

It is easy to say, gee, maybe it would have been better in the long run to get a 4 year player who makes a solid contribution instead of one year of Jaylen Brown, but we didn't even give out all of our scholarships that year, so if we didn't bring in Brown the alternative was nobody. If Cal is ever deciding whether to offer Theo Robertson Junior or Jaylen Brown Junior, we can talk. It has yet to happen. I might take Theo in that case depending on the circumstances (I'd probably like a class of 3 Theo's and a Jaylen). But it is a false argument at this point.

Nobody has ever answered me with a player we should have taken instead of our one or two and dones that we actually had an option to take. You can't fill your roster with theoretical players.

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I agree. You recruit the best players available who want to come and can handle the academics. Don't worry about them jumping to the NBA, if they do it is usually because they had a great, productive freshman season. Jabari Bird was a McDonald's AA but ended up finishing his eligibility at Cal. You never know. Besides, with the new transfer rules you can't even count on keeping your good 4 year players 4 years. Moreover, if you aim low you end up with too many players that use up a scholarship sitting on the bench for 4 years.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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This.

And any "analysis" of Bears prospects has to start (and stop?) with this simple conclussion - if Oregon and Arizona can get away with impunity of paying kids tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars do we really have a chance.

And before you type Tedford least I remind you that we were unable to get over the trojan hump with pete the cheat buying houses for recruits families.

socaltownie said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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This.

And any "analysis" of Bears prospects has to start (and stop?) with this simple conclussion - if Oregon and Arizona can get away with impunity of paying kids tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars do we really have a chance.

And before you type Tedford least I remind you that we were unable to get over the trojan hump with pete the cheat buying houses for recruits families.

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T E D F O R D.

So your argument is that because we couldn't do better than second place (well actually tied for first) and had to settle for several exciting victories, being ranked much of the time, 8 straight winning seasons spending much of that time in the top 3 in conference, last place finishes are acceptable?

Tedford and Monty proved that we can have a lot of wins, have a lot of success, have some great moments and flat out have a lot of fun. And sell a lot of tickets doing that, We can cry about what other schools do or we can be the best Cal we can be. Until you can look anyone in the eyes and say we are anywhere near doing our best and not blush, all of the arguments about other schools paying players and cheating (otherwise known as massive, whiny, bullshyte excuses) are irrelevant.

Be the best Cal we can be. That is what we ask

socaltownie said:

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Here is why I think this fails the logic test.

Assumption: Duke can build its program anyway it wants to
Assumption: Coach K is smarter than either you or me when it comes to Basketball
Observation: Coach K has decided to go "one and dones" sprinkled with a few senior leaders
Conclusion: The best way to succeed in the modern environment is with one and dones.

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More like:

Nike makes sure every star player who plays for Coach K is well taken care of, just like Sam Gilbert made sure every star player who played for Wooden was well taken care of.

And the number of Dukies who have had NBA careers seals the deal for Zion and other players good enough to be "well taken care of" on any of the top college hoops teams.

calumnus said:

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tsubamoto2001 said:

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Not saying Smith is going to succeed at Wazzu (it's a coaches graveyard for almost everyone...which goes to show you how special Tony Bennett is), but he's a reasonably good hire for them.

Since USF started up their program again in the '80's, no one was been able to have much success there. Jim Brovelli, Phil Mathews, Jessie Evans, Rex Walters...all of them failed. Remember, USF has a great basketball history prior to the early '80's, when they self-imposed the Dealth Penalty on their program. They had gone to 8 NCAA's in 11 seasons prior to shutting down. And Smith winning 20 games 3 seasons in a row is no small feat, especially with the WCC as strong as it has ever been.

And at Columbia, Smith had been their most successful coach in a long time. They've only won more than 20 games in a season twice since 1970, and both of them were under Smith.

So while lot has to go right for him to succeed at Wazzu, I think he's a comparatively better hire for them than Fox is for us.

Civil Bear said:

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HKBear97! said:

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Robocheme said:

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I believe we ended up in the *** category

https://www.si.com/college-basketball

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Thanks for sharing. Every single hire on that listed sounded better than ours.

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Well other than Kyle Smith to Wasu. He's an up & comer because he beat Stanfurd? Heck, Jones beat Stanfurd...at Stanfurd...twice!

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Smith is a program builder. Columbia (my other alma mater) was horrible forever. USF has been since they revived the basketball program from self imposed death. He is a great tactician and motivator. He has not yet had the chance to coach at a Cal or a Georgia, so you cannot make an apples to apples comparison. However there is nothing in Fox's resume that suggests he can take over a team at the bottom of the conference and get them to the top half of the conference.

I'd rather take a chance on an up and coming possible great coach than settle for a coach that has so far given a lot of evidence over many years he is not. However, there is still s chance he will exceed his past. I will be rooting for him to.

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USF was a 4th place team in conference each of his years there. They were 5th the year before he took overHis OOC schedules were pretty damned weak, which is where a lot of those 20 wins a year came from. I'm not sure he built anything there.

oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

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On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

KoreAmBear said:

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SonomanA1 said:

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I clicked on the SI link and another link in the article and saw this:

Replying to @johncanzanobft
Uc Irvine players confronted coach Turner this morning in the team hotel on the news he was a candidate for the opening at Cal. He responded "you think I'd leave Irvine for a crap hole like Berkeley?" Everyone laughed. A source tells Husky Sports Blog
4:13 PM - 24 Mar 2019

Maybe some coaches just don't like Berkeley.

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Dude is a loose cannon. I still think Eran Ganot is a better coach than him. He just has a disadvantage in recruiting kids to Hawaii.

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How about the Chaminade coach? I'd take Ganot or him for Cal in a heartbeat.

SFCityBear said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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SonomanA1 said:

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I clicked on the SI link and another link in the article and saw this:

Replying to @johncanzanobft
Uc Irvine players confronted coach Turner this morning in the team hotel on the news he was a candidate for the opening at Cal. He responded "you think I'd leave Irvine for a crap hole like Berkeley?" Everyone laughed. A source tells Husky Sports Blog
4:13 PM - 24 Mar 2019

Maybe some coaches just don't like Berkeley.

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Dude is a loose cannon. I still think Eran Ganot is a better coach than him. He just has a disadvantage in recruiting kids to Hawaii.

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How about the Chaminade coach? I'd take Ganot or him for Cal in a heartbeat.

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LOL he definitely outcoached Wyking on Maui.

bluehenbear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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The only thing that counts for me is the NCAA title, the PAC12 regular season title, and the PAC12 tournament title, in that order. Everything short of that is a loss of some kind.

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The only thing the media and most people care about are:
NCAA Title
making the NCAA Final Four
making the NCAA sweet 16
making the tournament at all

As Cal has experienced, winning the Pac-12 tournament has more cachet than winning the regular season title. Ever since they created the stupid conference tournament, no one gives a flying fig who won the regular season, because winning the tournament gives you the automatic bid to the NCAA tournament.

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You left out "getting a high opening seed for the tournament." I see the reason behind it, but still, it is for me the most ridiculous prize a team can win.

And therein lies the problem. Philosophically, we live in a culture so dumbed down that we think that a subjective judgment, like being selected to receive an invitation to this dance is somehow an accomplishment, equal to winning something. In little league and youth sports, many give out trophies for participation, so no child has to experience losing, or at least to help make the losing more acceptable to the child, so he doesn't have to pick himself up off the floor and start all over after a devastating defeat.

Back in the day, the NCAA invited only teams who won their conferences, which eliminated all the independents. The NIT was invitational and the best teams in the country were invited. The best conference winners, like Kentucky, often played in both tournaments. I think NYCC won both of them in the same year. As the NCAA expanded from 16 to 32 to 64 it had become a farce for purists. The tournament has become a PT Barnum-like operation, where you have to be a pretty bad team not to make the 64 team field (plus the play-in games). Only 8-10 teams have a realistic shot to win it, and many of the best teams will get knocked off in an early round. The way basketball is played today, with so much depending on the three point shot, that a good team can have an off night shooting the three, and a weaker opponent can get hot with their threes, and it is game over for the better team. Americans love underdogs, and this feeds their appetite for upsets. The early NCAA and NIT were set up to decide who was the best team in the nation. Today, the show is what is important, the excitement of it, which the men who run the NCAA and the media love as they see all the cash rolling in. Arizona finished 5th in the PAC10 one year and won the NCAA, while under the old formats, they would not have been invited to either the NCAA or the NIT. Finishing 5th in conference is losing your conference. Even teams with losing records have been invited to the NCAA on occasion. The NIT today should be discontinued, it has become so pathetic and meaningless.

I'm still a regular season round robin fan, as some old guys are. Playing half your games in hostile arenas with often unfriendly refs and strange rims, is not easy. In terms of generations, in days gone by, regular season games were played on back to back nights, Friday and Saturday. The NCAA was played the same way. The regionals were played on back to back nights. The Final Four was played on back to back nights. If we have to play the PAC12 tournament, about the only thing I do like about it is that the games are played on back to back days. But t is too much for the players, so I would like it played on two weekends, on back to back nights.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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Of course this is true. I have wondered, and still do, why teams are able to give offers to more players than they have open scholarships. I have asked here in the BI, maybe the football board, what happens if you have two offers out there, and only one schollie left, and if both players accept the offer? Does the coach have to tell one of the players, "Sorry, but we gave the scholarship to another player"?

I would say that no one knows how serious the offer is except the recruiter and/or the coach. (Think Braun and Nowitski, which made for great publicity) Recruiting could also have some poker strategy in it. Maybe you offer Zion, knowing you may not get him, but it might make your biggest competitor school expend extra resources to land Zion, when you are putting your extra effort into landing a different player. Maybe you offer Zion to encourage better recruits to commit to you, thinking they will be playing alongside Zion.

So the coaches may all be recruiting the same kids, but they may be doing it for different reasons, and different levels of seriousness.

SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

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Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

bluesaxe said:

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USF was a 4th place team in conference each of his years there. They were 5th the year before he took overHis OOC schedules were pretty damned weak, which is where a lot of those 20 wins a year came from. I'm not sure he built anything there.

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Of course, the 2018-19 OOC schedule was a lot weaker than it might have been because Cal and Stanford both sucked and the ASU game was postponed to December 2019 due to smoke.

But even if the OOC schedule is decent, you need to win some games against the decent teams you play (and Cal and LSJU did NOT qualify as decent this year). The Dons probably lose to ASU if they played the game. Buffalo was their best chance for a decent win, and they lost. UCSB wasn't exactly a great team, and they lost.

Then you have the end of season collapse. After beating BYU in Provo, they could have gotten second place in the WCC by winning 3 games against inferior teams. And then they lose all 3, at Santa Clara, home against San Diego in OT, and home against LMU, to finish 4th. To top things off, they lost as the #4 team to 8th place Pepperdine in their first game of the WCC tourney. Ending on a 4 game losing streak, all against teams that finished below them in the standings. Not a good look, it pretty much offset whatever positives came from the conference opening win over SMC and the season sweep of BYU.

I don't know how someone could dislike the results Mark Fox got at Georgia but be enamored with the results Smith got at USF. As you point out, took a 5th place team and turned it into a consistent 4th place team. The only 2018-19 win against a tourney team was the home win over SMC in a close one, which was more than offset by other crappy results.

I wasn't happy with the Fox hire, but I would have liked Smith even less. If you're going to hire an "up and comer," hire a guy who has been winning his non-P6 conference (or if it is the WCC with the Gonzaga monster to deal with, at least finishing second and getting to the NCAA tourney). If you're going to hire a guy with mediocre mid-major results, may as well hire a guy with mediocre P6 results. Maybe Smith will prove me wrong and turn out Raveling/Sampson/Bennett-like results at WSU, but I doubt it.

Casey Jacobsen refused to comment on the Fox hire , saying he did not know anything about him. He fully endorsed the fucla hire and the wsu hire.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Tony Bennett recruits tons of one-and-done players. I posted the Virginia offer list a while back and it included guys like Zion Williamson, Nassir Little, Darius Garland, Coby White, Cam Reddish and so on. I don't think there's a coach in America that doesn't recruit the top kids if they think they can land them. Bennett just doesn't land them but he surely recruits them. And as Virginia's recruiting has ticked up in recent years, now they too are facing the early departure bug with four players tossing their name in for the upcoming nba draft. It's not the case that Duke has a "strategy" to get one-and-done guys while someone like Virginia purposely avoids doing so. They're all recruiting the same kids.

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He'd be dumb not too.

The takeway is he's winning big despite not getting them against schools, many of them blue bloods, that are.

Virginia has virtually the exact same profile -- athletically and academically -- as Cal, with stiffer recruiting competition (ACC, northeast).

Build an identity and culture as a program, and convince the right kind of players.

oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

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Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

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Well, we just have different opinions. As to Kihei Clark, I think the Virginia coach and players have a higher opinion of him. He saved Virginia's bacon at least against Oregon and Auburn in the NCAA. They don't win either of those games without him. Against Oregon he had 6 assists and 12 points, and maybe more important, he shut down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard on defense. Against Auburn, it was his spectacular last second pass for an assist which tied the game and sent it into overtime, allowing Virginia to win.

With all due respect, a point guard is best measured by intangibles like his heart, his aggressiveness, his control of the pace of play and directing the offense, his setting up of teammates for open looks, his passing and ball handling skills, and his defense at point of attack. Any points he scores are usually gravy. Nice to have, but not necessary. Not many point guards are feared for their shooting prowess.

Here are some recent articles on Clark:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/30/hes-killer-virginias-kihei-clark-might-be-small-he-delivers-big-plays/?utm_term=.96c8a9cea3bc

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/kihei-clarks-virginia-purdue-march-madness-2019.html

Finally, please consider that Virginia had those same Four High 4-star players the year before, 2018, and in that year, without Clark to run that team, Virginia was blown out in the first round of the NCAA by lowly University of Maryland Baltimore County. Who? They whipped Virginia 74-54. A year later, with unranked recruit Kihei Clark, Virginia wins the NCAA title. I rest my case.

I am someone who has little faith in recruit rankings. I published a spreadsheet here a few years ago which detailed the college and pro careers of one year's top 100 recruits. I tracked all the details, and what I found was that only 40% of those players lived up to their rankings at some point in their careers.

Recruits are ranked primarily for their ability to score, and very seldom for their defense or other skills, like passing, ball handling, rebounding. All the rankings seem to care about is can he shoot, and can he score. And of course, is he athletic? That is big one. Jaylen Brown came to Cal very highly ranked, but he couldn't shoot well, and could not handle the ball well, and he did not pass the ball often. His defense was spotty, but he was so athletic, he could chase anyone down from behind and block his shot, without getting called for a foul. That entire starting lineup never lived up to their individual recruit rankings, IMO. Rabb was never dominant, as I was led to expect. Bird was no 5-star. He could not play defense, and had to learn it from the ground up. Wallace was no point guard, and could not shoot, and was slow on defense. Mathews was a one-tool player with a three point shot and nothing else. The team finished in 3rd place, not as successful as we expected. They had two key injuries for the NCAA, but with highly ranked players like Rabb, Brown and Mathews, they should have been able to beat Hawaii, a team with no 4-stars, only 3-stars and 2-stars, and beat them easily. Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, but even with Rabb, Mathews and Singer playing well.

As to your statement that if you have 4 Jabari Birds together in the 3rd or 4th year, then you have a good team, I would say not necessarily, and probably not likely. The team would have to include a center and a point guard. You saw what happened to Virginia in 2018, when the point guard was not as good as Clark in running the team. And the team would need to have a good coach. Players need coaching, today more than ever, IMO, to learn how to play together on offense and play tough defense as a team.

BearSD said:

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socaltownie said:

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Here is why I think this fails the logic test.

Assumption: Duke can build its program anyway it wants to
Assumption: Coach K is smarter than either you or me when it comes to Basketball
Observation: Coach K has decided to go "one and dones" sprinkled with a few senior leaders
Conclusion: The best way to succeed in the modern environment is with one and dones.

---

More like:

Nike makes sure every star player who plays for Coach K is well taken care of, just like Sam Gilbert made sure every star player who played for Wooden was well taken care of.

And the number of Dukies who have had NBA careers seals the deal for Zion and other players good enough to be "well taken care of" on any of the top college hoops teams.

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

---

Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

---

Well, we just have different opinions. As to Kihei Clark, I think the Virginia coach and players have a higher opinion of him. He saved Virginia's bacon at least against Oregon and Auburn in the NCAA. They don't win either of those games without him. Against Oregon he had 6 assists and 12 points, and maybe more important, he shut down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard on defense. Against Auburn, it was his spectacular last second pass for an assist which tied the game and sent it into overtime, allowing Virginia to win.

With all due respect, a point guard is best measured by intangibles like his heart, his aggressiveness, his control of the pace of play and directing the offense, his setting up of teammates for open looks, his passing and ball handling skills, and his defense at point of attack. Any points he scores are usually gravy. Nice to have, but not necessary. Not many point guards are feared for their shooting prowess.

Here are some recent articles on Clark:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/30/hes-killer-virginias-kihei-clark-might-be-small-he-delivers-big-plays/?utm_term=.96c8a9cea3bc

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/kihei-clarks-virginia-purdue-march-madness-2019.html

Finally, please consider that Virginia had those same Four High 4-star players the year before, 2018, and in that year, without Clark to run that team, Virginia was blown out in the first round of the NCAA by lowly University of Maryland Baltimore County. Who? They whipped Virginia 74-54. A year later, with unranked recruit Kihei Clark, Virginia wins the NCAA title. I rest my case.

I am someone who has little faith in recruit rankings. I published a spreadsheet here a few years ago which detailed the college and pro careers of one year's top 100 recruits. I tracked all the details, and what I found was that only 40% of those players lived up to their rankings at some point in their careers.

Recruits are ranked primarily for their ability to score, and very seldom for their defense or other skills, like passing, ball handling, rebounding. All the rankings seem to care about is can he shoot, and can he score. And of course, is he athletic? That is big one. Jaylen Brown came to Cal very highly ranked, but he couldn't shoot well, and could not handle the ball well, and he did not pass the ball often. His defense was spotty, but he was so athletic, he could chase anyone down from behind and block his shot, without getting called for a foul. That entire starting lineup never lived up to their individual recruit rankings, IMO. Rabb was never dominant, as I was led to expect. Bird was no 5-star. He could not play defense, and had to learn it from the ground up. Wallace was no point guard, and could not shoot, and was slow on defense. Mathews was a one-tool player with a three point shot and nothing else. The team finished in 3rd place, not as successful as we expected. They had two key injuries for the NCAA, but with highly ranked players like Rabb, Brown and Mathews, they should have been able to beat Hawaii, a team with no 4-stars, only 3-stars and 2-stars, and beat them easily. Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, but even with Rabb, Mathews and Singer playing well.

As to your statement that if you have 4 Jabari Birds together in the 3rd or 4th year, then you have a good team, I would say not necessarily, and probably not likely. The team would have to include a center and a point guard. You saw what happened to Virginia in 2018, when the point guard was not as good as Clark in running the team. And the team would need to have a good coach. Players need coaching, today more than ever, IMO, to learn how to play together on offense and play tough defense as a team.

---

Yep, good support player. Ty Jerome had more assists. The team ran four guards. Bennett is a good coach. As for Jabari Bird type players, I was referring to talent. I didn't think you were so dense to think the team would have no point guard or center. As for 2018 Tourney, Hunter didn't play either. He was hurt.

oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

---

Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

---

Well, we just have different opinions. As to Kihei Clark, I think the Virginia coach and players have a higher opinion of him. He saved Virginia's bacon at least against Oregon and Auburn in the NCAA. They don't win either of those games without him. Against Oregon he had 6 assists and 12 points, and maybe more important, he shut down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard on defense. Against Auburn, it was his spectacular last second pass for an assist which tied the game and sent it into overtime, allowing Virginia to win.

With all due respect, a point guard is best measured by intangibles like his heart, his aggressiveness, his control of the pace of play and directing the offense, his setting up of teammates for open looks, his passing and ball handling skills, and his defense at point of attack. Any points he scores are usually gravy. Nice to have, but not necessary. Not many point guards are feared for their shooting prowess.

Here are some recent articles on Clark:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/30/hes-killer-virginias-kihei-clark-might-be-small-he-delivers-big-plays/?utm_term=.96c8a9cea3bc

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/kihei-clarks-virginia-purdue-march-madness-2019.html

Finally, please consider that Virginia had those same Four High 4-star players the year before, 2018, and in that year, without Clark to run that team, Virginia was blown out in the first round of the NCAA by lowly University of Maryland Baltimore County. Who? They whipped Virginia 74-54. A year later, with unranked recruit Kihei Clark, Virginia wins the NCAA title. I rest my case.

I am someone who has little faith in recruit rankings. I published a spreadsheet here a few years ago which detailed the college and pro careers of one year's top 100 recruits. I tracked all the details, and what I found was that only 40% of those players lived up to their rankings at some point in their careers.

Recruits are ranked primarily for their ability to score, and very seldom for their defense or other skills, like passing, ball handling, rebounding. All the rankings seem to care about is can he shoot, and can he score. And of course, is he athletic? That is big one. Jaylen Brown came to Cal very highly ranked, but he couldn't shoot well, and could not handle the ball well, and he did not pass the ball often. His defense was spotty, but he was so athletic, he could chase anyone down from behind and block his shot, without getting called for a foul. That entire starting lineup never lived up to their individual recruit rankings, IMO. Rabb was never dominant, as I was led to expect. Bird was no 5-star. He could not play defense, and had to learn it from the ground up. Wallace was no point guard, and could not shoot, and was slow on defense. Mathews was a one-tool player with a three point shot and nothing else. The team finished in 3rd place, not as successful as we expected. They had two key injuries for the NCAA, but with highly ranked players like Rabb, Brown and Mathews, they should have been able to beat Hawaii, a team with no 4-stars, only 3-stars and 2-stars, and beat them easily. Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, but even with Rabb, Mathews and Singer playing well.

As to your statement that if you have 4 Jabari Birds together in the 3rd or 4th year, then you have a good team, I would say not necessarily, and probably not likely. The team would have to include a center and a point guard. You saw what happened to Virginia in 2018, when the point guard was not as good as Clark in running the team. And the team would need to have a good coach. Players need coaching, today more than ever, IMO, to learn how to play together on offense and play tough defense as a team.

---

Yep, good support player. Ty Jerome had more assists. The team ran four guards. Bennett is a good coach. As for Jabari Bird type players, I was referring to talent. I didn't think you were so dense to think the team would have no point guard or center. As for 2018 Tourney, Hunter didn't play either. He was hurt.

---

Well, I am dense then, for just reading the words, and not knowing what is in your mind. I can understand however, that someone would think that all you need is 4 high 4-star players who are on a roster for 3-4 years and you automatically would have a good team. Most fans believe in, and some worship high school recruit rankings, which have been proven inaccurate so many times that the more intelligent fans should be suspicious of them, at least a little. And since you appear to be so invested in those rankings, I can understand why you said you would have no comment on Texas Tech. They play basketball outside of your theory of all a team needs is to have 4 highly rated players who stay on a roster for 3-4 years, because Texas Tech has only one of those highly ranked players, and he is 6th or 7th man. I look forward, as I always do, to seeing just how good some teams can become, without the star players, in an era where nearly everyone is all in, maybe sucked in, to the hype of recruit rankings.

PS: As for Hunter being hurt and not playing in the NCAA tournament, he was a freshman. He was perhaps the weakest of the Big 4, or at least the lowest ranked of the 4 (#74). However UVA that year also had Jay Huff (#61), and with Huff and Hunter, UVA was ranked #2 in the country for most of the season, and over the last few weeks, ranked #1. They were the highest ranked team, and one player gets injured, the lowest ranked of the 5 ranked players on the team, and even with a good coach, they can't manage to get past unranked UMBC in the first round? And instead, get blown out by 20? Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA. What blows my mind is that Clark is from PAC12 country, and the only offer he got from the West Coast or anywhere but UVA, was from UC Davis. Doesn't say much for the geniuses who coach in the PAC12, does it?

SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

---

Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

---

Well, we just have different opinions. As to Kihei Clark, I think the Virginia coach and players have a higher opinion of him. He saved Virginia's bacon at least against Oregon and Auburn in the NCAA. They don't win either of those games without him. Against Oregon he had 6 assists and 12 points, and maybe more important, he shut down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard on defense. Against Auburn, it was his spectacular last second pass for an assist which tied the game and sent it into overtime, allowing Virginia to win.

With all due respect, a point guard is best measured by intangibles like his heart, his aggressiveness, his control of the pace of play and directing the offense, his setting up of teammates for open looks, his passing and ball handling skills, and his defense at point of attack. Any points he scores are usually gravy. Nice to have, but not necessary. Not many point guards are feared for their shooting prowess.

Here are some recent articles on Clark:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/30/hes-killer-virginias-kihei-clark-might-be-small-he-delivers-big-plays/?utm_term=.96c8a9cea3bc

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/kihei-clarks-virginia-purdue-march-madness-2019.html

Finally, please consider that Virginia had those same Four High 4-star players the year before, 2018, and in that year, without Clark to run that team, Virginia was blown out in the first round of the NCAA by lowly University of Maryland Baltimore County. Who? They whipped Virginia 74-54. A year later, with unranked recruit Kihei Clark, Virginia wins the NCAA title. I rest my case.

I am someone who has little faith in recruit rankings. I published a spreadsheet here a few years ago which detailed the college and pro careers of one year's top 100 recruits. I tracked all the details, and what I found was that only 40% of those players lived up to their rankings at some point in their careers.

Recruits are ranked primarily for their ability to score, and very seldom for their defense or other skills, like passing, ball handling, rebounding. All the rankings seem to care about is can he shoot, and can he score. And of course, is he athletic? That is big one. Jaylen Brown came to Cal very highly ranked, but he couldn't shoot well, and could not handle the ball well, and he did not pass the ball often. His defense was spotty, but he was so athletic, he could chase anyone down from behind and block his shot, without getting called for a foul. That entire starting lineup never lived up to their individual recruit rankings, IMO. Rabb was never dominant, as I was led to expect. Bird was no 5-star. He could not play defense, and had to learn it from the ground up. Wallace was no point guard, and could not shoot, and was slow on defense. Mathews was a one-tool player with a three point shot and nothing else. The team finished in 3rd place, not as successful as we expected. They had two key injuries for the NCAA, but with highly ranked players like Rabb, Brown and Mathews, they should have been able to beat Hawaii, a team with no 4-stars, only 3-stars and 2-stars, and beat them easily. Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, but even with Rabb, Mathews and Singer playing well.

As to your statement that if you have 4 Jabari Birds together in the 3rd or 4th year, then you have a good team, I would say not necessarily, and probably not likely. The team would have to include a center and a point guard. You saw what happened to Virginia in 2018, when the point guard was not as good as Clark in running the team. And the team would need to have a good coach. Players need coaching, today more than ever, IMO, to learn how to play together on offense and play tough defense as a team.

---

Yep, good support player. Ty Jerome had more assists. The team ran four guards. Bennett is a good coach. As for Jabari Bird type players, I was referring to talent. I didn't think you were so dense to think the team would have no point guard or center. As for 2018 Tourney, Hunter didn't play either. He was hurt.

---

Well, I am dense then, for just reading the words, and not knowing what is in your mind. I can understand however, that someone would think that all you need is 4 high 4-star players who are on a roster for 3-4 years and you automatically would have a good team. Most fans believe in, and some worship high school recruit rankings, which have been proven inaccurate so many times that the more intelligent fans should be suspicious of them, at least a little. And since you appear to be so invested in those rankings, I can understand why you said you would have no comment on Texas Tech. They play basketball outside of your theory of all a team needs is to have 4 highly rated players who stay on a roster for 3-4 years, because Texas Tech has only one of those highly ranked players, and he is 6th or 7th man. I look forward, as I always do, to seeing just how good some teams can become, without the star players, in an era where nearly everyone is all in, maybe sucked in, to the hype of recruit rankings.

PS: As for Hunter being hurt and not playing in the NCAA tournament, he was a freshman. He was perhaps the weakest of the Big 4, or at least the lowest ranked of the 4 (#74). However UVA that year also had Jay Huff (#61), and with Huff and Hunter, UVA was ranked #2 in the country for most of the season, and over the last few weeks, ranked #1. They were the highest ranked team, and one player gets injured, the lowest ranked of the 5 ranked players on the team, and even with a good coach, they can't manage to get past unranked UMBC in the first round? And instead, get blown out by 20? Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA. What blows my mind is that Clark is from PAC12 country, and the only offer he got from the West Coast or anywhere but UVA, was from UC Davis. Doesn't say much for the geniuses who coach in the PAC12, does it?

---

What blows my mind is that you argue that the main difference between UVA's tournament this year and last is Clark and not Hunter, who will be a top 5 nba draft pick this year. I don't comment on Texas Tech because I am not making a statement on whether or not a team can win without high ranked high school recruits. Texas Tech struck gold with Culver and were helped by transfers. I'm simply pointing out that Virginia had talented that all peaked at the same time. They will not be a top 4 seed next year without SIGNIFICANT transfer help.

FYI, I won my ncaa bracket, largely because I picked UVA to make the finals. Most did not. I had more points going into the finals then the others who had done so.

oski003 said:

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What blows my mind is that you argue that the main difference between UVA's tournament this year and last is Clark and not Hunter, who will be a top 5 nba draft pick this year.

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Cue "Don't put words in my mouth" in 5...4... 3...

Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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oski003 said:

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Those 4 players leaving were all HIGH 4 stars in consecutive classes - 3 in the same class. Bennett struck lightning. Kihei Clark was the team's 5th or 6th best player and a good support player to the BIG FOUR, who may all leave. He's a good coach, but they are not an example of a team that won with low recruiting classes because he struck gold 3 years ago and kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years and 1 for 4 years. Diakite, the 4th year, was #27 overall recruit in his class.

When you have a solid foundation of 4 very good players who are all returning, it is hard to get a highly rated recruiting class. When your entire roster turns over, it is easier to get a highly rated recruiting class.

---

On the face of it, I find this a little hard to follow. Could you please clarify by name which players you are talking about? And which recruit ranking service you are using? I use RCSI composite rankings which is the one used by sports-reference.com. RCSI is a composite of several ranking services, including ESPN,Rivals, Scout, 247 and sometimes others.

Sticking with RCSI, Kyle Guy is ranked #32 but is still a 5-star recruit by ESPN etc. The class of which you speak and you say kept 3 top 50 players for 3 years apparently is Guy, Jerome (RCSI #46), and De' Andre Hunter (RCSI #74) Hunter is not a high ranked 4-star, because he is ranked in the bottom half of 4-stars, which is usually a group of 70 or so players, where he would be ranked around #44 of 70. We should also mention that Hunter was a project, and went through 3 years of outstanding progressive development, and a lot of credit has to go to his coaches.

Diakite was not ranked in his 2015 recruiting class by RCSI, but did appear in the ESPN top 100 at #37, or 247 Sports which had him ranked at #32. They also ranked him at #27, possibly an early ranking. Since RCSI is a composite including both ESPN and 247, I'm not sure how he did not make their final RCSI ranking. Maybe because he redshirted?

We should also mention that Bennett also picked up high 4-stars Jay Huff #61 in 2017, and Braxton Key #56 as a junior transfer from Alabama. I'm not sure how Key was allowed to play this year without sitting out a year.

I agree with your conclusions on recruiting, but not so much on Clark. Without Clark, Virginia does not make it to the Final, as Clark won one game almost single-handed with his performance in the 2nd half.

I would also be interested in your analysis of Texas Tech, as they made it to the Final with no one and dones and only one high ranked four-star recruit, Khavon Moore, #46 who played in only one game this season, and another high ranked 4-star Brandone Francis, #38, who is 6th or 7th man and does not start.

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Which game did Clark almost win single-handedly?

Here are his points each tournament game:
1) First Round: 3
2) Second Round: 9
3) Sweet 16: 12
4) Elite Eight: 2
5) Final Four: 9
6) Final: 3

Again, good support player. Trust me. He was not the one the defense worried about.

As for the other recruiting rankings, besides the fact that your source doesn't acknowledge a top 30 recruit, our data is close. Our conclusions are different. I think that when you have a team of four Jabari Bird type players all playing injury free in their 3rd or 4th year, that is going to be a good team. As for the coaching, Bennett is a good coach. I make no comment on Texas Tech.

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Well, we just have different opinions. As to Kihei Clark, I think the Virginia coach and players have a higher opinion of him. He saved Virginia's bacon at least against Oregon and Auburn in the NCAA. They don't win either of those games without him. Against Oregon he had 6 assists and 12 points, and maybe more important, he shut down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard on defense. Against Auburn, it was his spectacular last second pass for an assist which tied the game and sent it into overtime, allowing Virginia to win.

With all due respect, a point guard is best measured by intangibles like his heart, his aggressiveness, his control of the pace of play and directing the offense, his setting up of teammates for open looks, his passing and ball handling skills, and his defense at point of attack. Any points he scores are usually gravy. Nice to have, but not necessary. Not many point guards are feared for their shooting prowess.

Here are some recent articles on Clark:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/30/hes-killer-virginias-kihei-clark-might-be-small-he-delivers-big-plays/?utm_term=.96c8a9cea3bc

https://slate.com/culture/2019/03/kihei-clarks-virginia-purdue-march-madness-2019.html

Finally, please consider that Virginia had those same Four High 4-star players the year before, 2018, and in that year, without Clark to run that team, Virginia was blown out in the first round of the NCAA by lowly University of Maryland Baltimore County. Who? They whipped Virginia 74-54. A year later, with unranked recruit Kihei Clark, Virginia wins the NCAA title. I rest my case.

I am someone who has little faith in recruit rankings. I published a spreadsheet here a few years ago which detailed the college and pro careers of one year's top 100 recruits. I tracked all the details, and what I found was that only 40% of those players lived up to their rankings at some point in their careers.

Recruits are ranked primarily for their ability to score, and very seldom for their defense or other skills, like passing, ball handling, rebounding. All the rankings seem to care about is can he shoot, and can he score. And of course, is he athletic? That is big one. Jaylen Brown came to Cal very highly ranked, but he couldn't shoot well, and could not handle the ball well, and he did not pass the ball often. His defense was spotty, but he was so athletic, he could chase anyone down from behind and block his shot, without getting called for a foul. That entire starting lineup never lived up to their individual recruit rankings, IMO. Rabb was never dominant, as I was led to expect. Bird was no 5-star. He could not play defense, and had to learn it from the ground up. Wallace was no point guard, and could not shoot, and was slow on defense. Mathews was a one-tool player with a three point shot and nothing else. The team finished in 3rd place, not as successful as we expected. They had two key injuries for the NCAA, but with highly ranked players like Rabb, Brown and Mathews, they should have been able to beat Hawaii, a team with no 4-stars, only 3-stars and 2-stars, and beat them easily. Brown had the worst game of his Cal career, but even with Rabb, Mathews and Singer playing well.

As to your statement that if you have 4 Jabari Birds together in the 3rd or 4th year, then you have a good team, I would say not necessarily, and probably not likely. The team would have to include a center and a point guard. You saw what happened to Virginia in 2018, when the point guard was not as good as Clark in running the team. And the team would need to have a good coach. Players need coaching, today more than ever, IMO, to learn how to play together on offense and play tough defense as a team.

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Yep, good support player. Ty Jerome had more assists. The team ran four guards. Bennett is a good coach. As for Jabari Bird type players, I was referring to talent. I didn't think you were so dense to think the team would have no point guard or center. As for 2018 Tourney, Hunter didn't play either. He was hurt.

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Well, I am dense then, for just reading the words, and not knowing what is in your mind. I can understand however, that someone would think that all you need is 4 high 4-star players who are on a roster for 3-4 years and you automatically would have a good team. Most fans believe in, and some worship high school recruit rankings, which have been proven inaccurate so many times that the more intelligent fans should be suspicious of them, at least a little. And since you appear to be so invested in those rankings, I can understand why you said you would have no comment on Texas Tech. They play basketball outside of your theory of all a team needs is to have 4 highly rated players who stay on a roster for 3-4 years, because Texas Tech has only one of those highly ranked players, and he is 6th or 7th man. I look forward, as I always do, to seeing just how good some teams can become, without the star players, in an era where nearly everyone is all in, maybe sucked in, to the hype of recruit rankings.

PS: As for Hunter being hurt and not playing in the NCAA tournament, he was a freshman. He was perhaps the weakest of the Big 4, or at least the lowest ranked of the 4 (#74). However UVA that year also had Jay Huff (#61), and with Huff and Hunter, UVA was ranked #2 in the country for most of the season, and over the last few weeks, ranked #1. They were the highest ranked team, and one player gets injured, the lowest ranked of the 5 ranked players on the team, and even with a good coach, they can't manage to get past unranked UMBC in the first round? And instead, get blown out by 20? Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA. What blows my mind is that Clark is from PAC12 country, and the only offer he got from the West Coast or anywhere but UVA, was from UC Davis. Doesn't say much for the geniuses who coach in the PAC12, does it?

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What blows my mind is that you argue that the main difference between UVA's tournament this year and last is Clark and not Hunter, who will be a top 5 nba draft pick this year. I don't comment on Texas Tech because I am not making a statement on whether or not a team can win without high ranked high school recruits. Texas Tech struck gold with Culver and were helped by transfers. I'm simply pointing out that Virginia had talented that all peaked at the same time. They will not be a top 4 seed next year without SIGNIFICANT transfer help.

FYI, I won my ncaa bracket, largely because I picked UVA to make the finals. Most did not. I had more points going into the finals then the others who had done so.

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What blows my mind is that in this day and age, with years and years of recruit rankings by various "experts", and all the highly ranked recruits who have under-achieved, and all those who have not helped their teams, and many who ended up as busts, that so many fans would still religiously accept these rankings as gospel truth. Infallible information for the gullible.

As to De'Andre Hunter, aren't you conflating the Hunter of 2017-2018 with the Hunter of 2018-2019? Hunter has been on a fast track of improvement since he arrived at UVA. In 2017-2018 pre-ACC season, Hunter was barely getting into games as the 8th man in the rotation, in terms of minutes, sometimes only getting a minute or two. By the start of the ACC play, Hunter was getting enough minutes to be 6th man in the rotation, but he never started a single game. At 19 minutes per game, he was not getting major minutes like the starters. He was a solid contributor, off the bench. The team was very good, ranked #1 in the nation. So you are saying the reason Virginia lost to UMBC in the NCAA in a blowout was that Hunter did not play? Maybe so, but if the team still had 3 of your Big 4 players in that game, are you saying they were not good enough to win that game and not get blown out by unranked UMBC?

In 2018-2019, Hunter was in the starting lineup on day 1, and started every game. Again UVA had a very good team. Fast forward to the Sweet 16. Hunter played in that game and played pretty well. But quite frankly, UVA does not beat Oregon without Kihei Clark shutting down Oregon's best player, Payton Pritchard, and without Kihei Clarke getting 6 assists and 12 points of his own. You might say that someone else could have picked up that load, except that UVA had NO OTHER GUARD ON THE BENCH WHO COULD DO THAT.

Fast forward to the Final Four game vs Auburn. Again, Hunter played and played well, but it was not good enough to win that game, as in the final seconds, Auburn was leading by two points. Then Kihei Clark, the nobody, makes a terrific pass to Diakite for an assist, which tied the score, and sent the game into overtime, and UVA eventually won. If Clark does not make that pass, Diakite does not make that bucket, and UVA goes home.

I am not saying that adding Clark to the 2017-2018 team would have won UVA the NCAA title. I am saying that Hunter became a good player in 2017-2018, but he was not a starter. He did contribute a lot, and losing him right before the NCAA had to affect the team, but not so much that the team gets blown out by a nobody. Clearly the other 5 players were not that good together, or something else was missing in the chemistry or the personnel. Suddenly, the next year the team plays together better, some of that is Hunter being healthy and more improved, some of that is the other players improving, and some of that is adding Clark, who somehow helps the team play better together, and in the few games they don't, Clark can pick them up and in two games in the NCAA at least, make huge plays to literally save UVA from defeat.

In the end, the UVA coach and his players all know how good Clark is, and that is enough for me.
[url=https://bearinsider.com/forums/3/topics/88160/last][/url][url=https://bearinsider.com/forums/3/topics/88160/last][/url]

Yes, Clark is a good support player. Easily, their 5th or 6th best guy. Perhaps, he will carry the team next year when their magical class of Guy, Jerome, and Hunter leaves. Yes, it took Hunter 2 years to develop into a monster.

oski003 said:

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Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

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Kihei Clark may not have been highly recruited but Bennett primarily signed him to play a specific role in the pack line defense. Because Clark is so quick he can apply a lot of intense ball pressure immediately after crossing half court to the other team's lead guard which is a critical element to the pack line philosophy. He really forces Virginia's opponents to start their offense pretty deep out. Any offense they get from him is basically a bonus.

oski003 said:

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Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

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Exactly. You did not repeat SFCB per vadum, so in his world, you put words in his mouth.

SFCityBear said:

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What blows my mind is that in this day and age, with years and years of recruit rankings by various "experts", and all the highly ranked recruits who have under-achieved, and all those who have not helped their teams, and many who ended up as busts, that so many fans would still religiously accept these rankings as gospel truth. Infallible information for the gullible.

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Please provide examples.

TheSouseFamily said:

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oski003 said:

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Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

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Kihei Clark may not have been highly recruited but Bennett primarily signed him to play a specific role in the pack line defense. Because Clark is so quick he can apply a lot of intense ball pressure immediately after crossing half court to the other team's lead guard which is a critical element to the pack line philosophy. He really forces Virginia's opponents to start their offense pretty deep out. Any offense they get from him is basically a bonus.

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Thanks for this. Even in this modern basketball, where many rules have been changed or less enforced, all to favor the offense and increase scoring, a good individual defender can still make a difference and play an important role.

SFCityBear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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oski003 said:

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Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

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Kihei Clark may not have been highly recruited but Bennett primarily signed him to play a specific role in the pack line defense. Because Clark is so quick he can apply a lot of intense ball pressure immediately after crossing half court to the other team's lead guard which is a critical element to the pack line philosophy. He really forces Virginia's opponents to start their offense pretty deep out. Any offense they get from him is basically a bonus.

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Thanks for this. Even in this modern basketball, where many rules have been changed or less enforced, all to favor the offense and increase scoring, a good individual defender can still make a difference and play an important role.

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The way the rules are enforced in college, as opposed to the NBA, are more tilted toward defense. College refs don't call hand check or obstruction fouls as often as NBA refs do, and they call charging fouls on offensive players far more often than NBA refs do.

BearSD said:

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SFCityBear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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oski003 said:

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Add one unranked too small player to the mix, like Kihei Clark, and UVA does a complete reversal in the NCAA.

Those are his words explaining the difference between the 2018 and 2019 Tourney results.

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Kihei Clark may not have been highly recruited but Bennett primarily signed him to play a specific role in the pack line defense. Because Clark is so quick he can apply a lot of intense ball pressure immediately after crossing half court to the other team's lead guard which is a critical element to the pack line philosophy. He really forces Virginia's opponents to start their offense pretty deep out. Any offense they get from him is basically a bonus.

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Thanks for this. Even in this modern basketball, where many rules have been changed or less enforced, all to favor the offense and increase scoring, a good individual defender can still make a difference and play an important role.

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The way the rules are enforced in college, as opposed to the NBA, are more tilted toward defense. College refs don't call hand check or obstruction fouls as often as NBA refs do, and they call charging fouls on offensive players far more often than NBA refs do.

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Except for PAC-12 refs.

Except for/against Cal.