Is this the textbook shooter's bounce?

That is freaking amazing!

Un-freaking believable ending to a game 7. It was a buzzer beater that happened 5 seconds after the buzzer!

Ridiculous shot, played incredibly poorly by Embiid. Embiid basically made Simmons irrelevant on the play, as opposed to a 2nd defender to double Kawhi.

Kawhi had a terrible game overall (16-39 FG, 2-9 3PT)

That was an amazing shot, no question.

I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

Californium said:

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That was an amazing shot, no question.

I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

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With the Euro step they all walk. There is nothing like seeing an offensive player driving to the hoop that gets sealed off by great D and then stops his dribble....only to then take a step around the defender for the score...or get a foul call because the defender decided to continue playing defense on a guy that is literally strolling into him while holding the ball. Either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule.

Californium said:

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That was an amazing shot, no question.

I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

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I'm not sure it is. He catches the ball as he's turning, and it seems to me that he establishes his right foot as the pivot foot. He then take one dribble before he heads toward the baseline, though it's tough to see in that angle.

bearister said:

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Californium said:

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That was an amazing shot, no question.

I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

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With the Euro step they all walk. There is nothing like seeing an offensive player driving to the hoop that gets sealed off by great D and then stops his dribble....only to then take a step around the defender for the score...or get a foul call because the defender decided to continue playing defense on a guy that is literally strolling into him while holding the ball. Either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule.

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You don't know what a Eurostep is. It's not traveling.

If anyone can find a video Harden's recent eurostep he used in the last(?) game against the Warriors, would that be a good example?

I find the eurostep a bit puzzling...

What once was traveling is not any more ... and since everyone can do the same thing, what's the problem?

If James harden and Kawhi Leonard, among others, have adjusted their game to the way it's being officiated today, they deserve praise, not blame.

And just because the judgement on what is traveling is less restrictive than it used to be doesn't mean it's automatically a bad thing. The idea is to make the game fun to play and fun to watch, and if everyone understands and plays by the same standards of officiating, I don't see the issue.

Or, to put it another way, when was the perfect basketball rule book? 1891? 1933? 1965? 1985?

GMP said:

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bearister said:

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...With the Euro step they all walk. There is nothing like seeing an offensive player driving to the hoop that gets sealed off by great D and then stops his dribble....only to then take a step around the defender for the score...or get a foul call because the defender decided to continue playing defense on a guy that is literally strolling into him while holding the ball. Either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule.

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You don't know what a Eurostep is. It's not traveling.

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There you go again getting all haughty when there was no need too. By stating "eliminate the euro step" it indicated I knew it was a legal move since there would be no need to eliminate something already against the rules. It used to be a travel* and I think it is a pu$$ie move befitting a continent where skinny guys wear speedos at the beach.


*While the eurostep was in common use in the NBA before 2009, it did not become technically legal until 2009. Prior to 2009 the NBA rule book had always said a player could only take one step. In 2009 it changed to read "A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball." When the change was made, ESPN noted "It is believed to be the first time any league, at any level anywhere in the world, has explicitly allowed two steps."Wikipedia

ClayK said:

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What once was traveling is not any more ... and since everyone can do the same thing, what's the problem?

If James harden and Kawhi Leonard, among others, have adjusted their game to the way it's being officiated today, they deserve praise, not blame.

And just because the judgement on what is traveling is less restrictive than it used to be doesn't mean it's automatically a bad thing. The idea is to make the game fun to play and fun to watch, and if everyone understands and plays by the same standards of officiating, I don't see the issue.

Or, to put it another way, when was the perfect basketball rule book? 1891? 1933? 1965? 1985?

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(shrug) ok, then. I guess people don't care that much.

ClayK said:

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If James harden and Kawhi Leonard, among others, have adjusted their game to the way it's being officiated today, they deserve praise, not blame.

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Harden often takes 3 steps back on "step back" 3 point shots. Yet for some reason Harden is the one complaining about the way his shots are officiated.

bearister said:

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GMP said:

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bearister said:

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...With the Euro step they all walk. There is nothing like seeing an offensive player driving to the hoop that gets sealed off by great D and then stops his dribble....only to then take a step around the defender for the score...or get a foul call because the defender decided to continue playing defense on a guy that is literally strolling into him while holding the ball. Either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule.

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You don't know what a Eurostep is. It's not traveling.

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There you go again getting all haughty when there was no need too. By stating "eliminate the euro step" it indicated I knew it was a legal move since there would be no need to eliminate something already against the rules. It used to be a travel* and I think it is a pu$$ie move befitting a continent where skinny guys wear speedos at the beach.


*While the eurostep was in common use in the NBA before 2009, it did not become technically legal until 2009. Prior to 2009 the NBA rule book had always said a player could only take one step. In 2009 it changed to read "A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball." When the change was made, ESPN noted "It is believed to be the first time any league, at any level anywhere in the world, has explicitly allowed two steps."Wikipedia

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When you say "with the Euro step, they all walk" and "either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule" you make it sound like you think the Eurostep is a travel.

GMP said:

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bearister said:

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GMP said:

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bearister said:

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...With the Euro step they all walk. There is nothing like seeing an offensive player driving to the hoop that gets sealed off by great D and then stops his dribble....only to then take a step around the defender for the score...or get a foul call because the defender decided to continue playing defense on a guy that is literally strolling into him while holding the ball. Either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule.

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You don't know what a Eurostep is. It's not traveling.

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There you go again getting all haughty when there was no need too. By stating "eliminate the euro step" it indicated I knew it was a legal move since there would be no need to eliminate something already against the rules. It used to be a travel* and I think it is a pu$$ie move befitting a continent where skinny guys wear speedos at the beach.


*While the eurostep was in common use in the NBA before 2009, it did not become technically legal until 2009. Prior to 2009 the NBA rule book had always said a player could only take one step. In 2009 it changed to read "A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball." When the change was made, ESPN noted "It is believed to be the first time any league, at any level anywhere in the world, has explicitly allowed two steps."Wikipedia

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When you say "with the Euro step, they all walk" and "either eliminate the Euro step or eliminate the traveling rule" you make it sound like you think the Eurostep is a travel.

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I consider it travelling and would prefer they return to the old standard of how many steps are allowed before it becomes too many, but the Eurostep is technically legal at present.

Agree .
The rules and how a game is officiated changes.

I also saw someone break down harden's 3 step step back and explain why it's within the rules as applied when players are going TO the basket

He just applies the same thing to his step back

Made me rethink it, although I still don't like it

Interesting that Klay got called for a carry by doing the same move, although in slo mo replay he didn't do it as skillfully and so I thought it was a good call even when applying the harden rule

ClayK said:

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What once was traveling is not any more ... and since everyone can do the same thing, what's the problem?

If James harden and Kawhi Leonard, among others, have adjusted their game to the way it's being officiated today, they deserve praise, not blame.

And just because the judgement on what is traveling is less restrictive than it used to be doesn't mean it's automatically a bad thing. The idea is to make the game fun to play and fun to watch, and if everyone understands and plays by the same standards of officiating, I don't see the issue.

Or, to put it another way, when was the perfect basketball rule book? 1891? 1933? 1965? 1985?

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Everything else is getting weak sauced down, why not basketball?

HoopDreams said:

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Agree .
The rules and how a game is officiated changes.

I also saw someone break down harden's 3 step step back and explain why it's within the rules as applied when players are going TO the basket

He just applies the same thing to his step back

Made me rethink it, although I still don't like it

Interesting that Klay got called for a carry by doing the same move, although in slo mo replay he didn't do it as skillfully and so I thought it was a good call even when applying the harden rule

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here is the video I was referring to. He talks about the 'zero step' and the 'gather step'

(by the way, if you or someone want to improve your ball handling, I think this guy is the best on youtube)

I still don't like it, and he says you will typically get called for it outside the NBA, so I would never use it, but for the harden detractors (I'm one of them) it may give you pause to rethink this a little ...

How about the palming call on Klay this past Friday against Houston. My friend and I looked at each other and we both said "Everyone does that and they never call it." Then they showed the replay and it was no different than what you see numerous times every game.

By the way, on another note, did anyone notice the shot of the blue and gold Berkeley shirt just behind the 76ers bench at the end of Game 7 with the Raptors? We need to plant more folks like that for subliminal effect.

Californium said:

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I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

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I look forward to watching the breakdown vids of Eurostep defined, but has anyone noticed how Curry travels after a rebound and beginning his advance of the ball down court? I see it nearly every time. I am surprised all refs allow it.

concordtom said:

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Californium said:

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I'm just curious if anyone cares that he blatantly walks before he ever puts the ball on the floor?

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I look forward to watching the breakdown vids of Eurostep defined, but has anyone noticed how Curry travels after a rebound and beginning his advance of the ball down court? I see it nearly every time. I am surprised all refs allow it.

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Two calls usually missed:
1. Player receives the ball in a catch and shoot situation beyond the arc and.....shuffles his feet into a comfortable stance before shooting the J. It's a travel that is never called; and

2. Player receives a pass, fumbles and drops it, picks it up and dribbles. It's a double dribble never called.

Does the player

1) fumble the pass so that it hits the ground, get control, and then dribble; or
2) actually receive the pass, have control, fumble it so that it hits the ground, grab with two hands (or palm with one), and then dribble?

I believe there is a difference. The second one is illegal and the first one is not.

Sometimes a player does things that just LOOK like a walk.

As an amateur ref it's extremely hard to call as there is so much to watch for and things happen so suddenly and unexpectedly

In contrast, think about a first base ump. He know who to watch (runner), where he is coming from and where he is going, and has time to prepare for most of it

Of course there are always those situations when it's not that simple, but 80% of the time it's not even close, 10% of the time he really needs to be alert and focused and in the right position, and 10% of the time all hell breaks loose

Basketball is more like 25%/25%/50%

(Now, I'm sure I'm going to get it from a baseball fan or ump)

Great point about "looking like a" violation or foul. Inexperienced refs blow the whistle when they see something they haven't seen before, and then try to figure out what to call (I did this many times in my years with a whistle). Experienced refs have seen more, and so can avoid translating surprise into a whistle.

Even so, when something looks weird, there's a temptation, especially among fans, to assume it's illegal, and only experience or a close examination of the replay can determine whether it was or not. The Eurostep is a classic example, as it definitely looks illegal, but upon examination, it's legality doesn't depend on the steps, but rather when the ball was "gathered."

ClayK said:

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Great point about "looking like a" violation or foul. Inexperienced refs blow the whistle when they see something they haven't seen before, and then try to figure out what to call (I did this many times in my years with a whistle). Experienced refs have seen more, and so can avoid translating surprise into a whistle.

Even so, when something looks weird, there's a temptation, especially among fans, to assume it's illegal, and only experience or a close examination of the replay can determine whether it was or not. The Eurostep is a classic example, as it definitely looks illegal, but upon examination, it's legality doesn't depend on the steps, but rather when the ball was "gathered."

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agree. good post.

Clay, I'm interested what you think of the video I posted analyzing Harden's step backs?

As mentioned, Harden has worked hard to develop the footwork and ballhandling the rules allow. If the rules didn't allow it, he wouldn't do it.

Again, the criticism is more rightfully aimed at the rules and their interpretation, which comes from the league office, not the officials themselves nor James Harden.

It's really clear in that video that it's about the timing of the gather and the concept of the "zero step." Any NBA player could be doing what Harden is doing ... the fact that few do is not Harden's fault.

As for the egregious travels missed by the officials, those are just bad calls -- and given the huge number of games played in the league, I'm sure you could find horrid calls on every rule without doing much research.

This is similar to the way baseball is played at the major league level right now. The structure of the game rewards certain mechanical adjustments, and players make those adjustments to reap those rewards.

ClayK said:

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Great point about "looking like a" violation or foul. Inexperienced refs blow the whistle when they see something they haven't seen before, and then try to figure out what to call (I did this many times in my years with a whistle). Experienced refs have seen more, and so can avoid translating surprise into a whistle.

Even so, when something looks weird, there's a temptation, especially among fans, to assume it's illegal, and only experience or a close examination of the replay can determine whether it was or not. The Eurostep is a classic example, as it definitely looks illegal, but upon examination, it's legality doesn't depend on the steps, but rather when the ball was "gathered."

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A really good point that I think a lot of fans do not understand when they scream about a travel. I'll often see someone complain a non-call was four steps, but in reality it's 2, maybe 3, and even in slow-motion it is difficult for me to tell when the ball was gathered and when the pivot foot is established.

Some of these are dumb. For example, the Dellavedova one near the beginning he didn't gather until the very end, and so he took just 1 step (if you argued 2, fine - but not 5). I stopped watching after the Mozgov play when he seemed to switch pivot feet so traveled, but they started counting his pivots! They also called a couple steps when Lopez pushed him. Dumb.

Perhaps Eric knows - did Monty ever take a run at Kawhi? Could he have gotten into Cal? Always felt like a strange choice to go SDSU if a Pac-12 offered (and given both his pro and college careers would feel like they should have).

socaltownie said:

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Perhaps Eric knows - did Monty ever take a run at Kawhi? Could he have gotten into Cal? Always felt like a strange choice to go SDSU if a Pac-12 offered (and given both his pro and college careers would feel like they should have).

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https://sports.yahoo.com/the-day-kawhi-leonard-became-a-star-151439696.html

Seems like he was just overloooked until it was too late.