Like father, like son?

HoopDreams said:

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Like father, like son?

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Yeah. We're holding back someone as good as Julius Erving was because our team is so deep.

Dr. J interviewed at a Cal game. Bill Walton helped Jules end up at Cal:

Here is Jules Erving's senior highlights:


I know they are highlights, but looks better than some of our other guys' highlights. Sure wouldn't hurt attendance if Jules Erving were a significant player for us.

So he ranks Dr. as the #3 Small Forward behind:
Lebron
Bird
-Dr. J
KD
Kawai
Pippen
Elgin

One has to think if he couldn't get minutes these last two seasons he must not be very good.
Not sure why b/c he shows well enough on the tape.

concordtom said:

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One has to think if he couldn't get minutes these last two seasons he must not be very good.
Not sure why b/c he shows well enough on the tape.

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Some coaches are weird about walkons.

concordtom said:

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So he ranks Dr. as the #3 Small Forward behind:
Lebron
Bird
-Dr. J
KD
Kawai
Pippen
Elgin

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I appreciate you giving some unexpected respect to an older player like Dr. J, who was indeed a fabulous basketball player.

However, any list of the all-time greatest small forwards that does not include Rick Barry has no credibility.

My own list runs like this:

Lebron
Bird
Baylor and Barry (tied)
Durant
Erving

Lebron and Bird have the best overall stats and both led their teams to 3 NBA titles each. Both played alongside great players, which helped. It also helped Lebron that the Warriors were banged up in one of those title runs. Stuff happens.

Baylor was the best small forward to never win an NBA title. He is the best rebounder on the list, and if you did not guard him well, he could drop 60 on you. Barry had great stats and he also could drop 60 on you, but he was the best leader and passer, IMO, on the list. He took a team of very average players to the NBA title, beating the heavily favored Bullets in the final, 4-0.

Durant is the best SF around today.

Erving had good stats, but could not win a title, even playing along side George McGinnis. He was more of an individual star, and would not likely have won an NBA title had not Moses Malone come along.

I would not include Leonard on the list. He's a good defender, but does not have comparable stats to the rest on the list . I don't think he wins his ring if KD was healthy.

Pippin was a good defender, but again, his stats are not comparable to any on the list of all-time great small forwards. He won 6 rings, I think, but I don't think he wins them without being on Jordan's team.

There seemed to be a an invisible step about 3 feet off the ground the Doc would launch off to get extra lift.

This is the one I remember watching my freshman year in the dorms against my Lakers in the Championships:



He jumps to the basket extending the ball to dunk, sees that it would be blocked, So he brings the ball down as his momentum carries him behind the basket and then somehow flies over to the side of the basket for the reverse from behind the backboard.

Grover Washington Jr. dedicated this song to Dr J for that shot:

I saw Dr. J in the ABA (with the Nets who had to sell/give Dr. J to the Sixers for the Nets to join the NBA) and, yeah, he was that good.

In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

GBear4Life said:

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In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

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Kwame who? He was a good high school player. I think he averaged 10 points in the NBA one season. And last I looked, he was not in today's game any more.

As Dr. J said in an interview a couple years ago at the PAC12 Tournament, when asked how the players of today would compare to the players of his day, "Oh, they're athletic, but they do a lot of things now that we were not allowed to do."

SFCityBear said:

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concordtom said:

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So he ranks Dr. as the #3 Small Forward behind:
Lebron
Bird
-Dr. J
KD
Kawai
Pippen
Elgin

---

I appreciate you giving some unexpected respect to an older player like Dr. J, who was indeed a fabulous basketball player.

However, any list of the all-time greatest small forwards that does not include Rick Barry has no credibility.

My own list runs like this:

Lebron
Bird
Baylor and Barry (tied)
Durant
Erving

Lebron and Bird have the best overall stats and both led their teams to 3 NBA titles each. Both played alongside great players, which helped. It also helped Lebron that the Warriors were banged up in one of those title runs. Stuff happens.

Baylor was the best small forward to never win an NBA title. He is the best rebounder on the list, and if you did not guard him well, he could drop 60 on you. Barry had great stats and he also could drop 60 on you, but he was the best leader and passer, IMO, on the list. He took a team of very average players to the NBA title, beating the heavily favored Bullets in the final, 4-0.

Durant is the best SF around today.

Erving had good stats, but could not win a title, even playing along side George McGinnis. He was more of an individual star, and would not likely have won an NBA title had not Moses Malone come along.

I would not include Leonard on the list. He's a good defender, but does not have comparable stats to the rest on the list . I don't think he wins his ring if KD was healthy.

Pippin was a good defender, but again, his stats are not comparable to any on the list of all-time great small forwards. He won 6 rings, I think, but I don't think he wins them without being on Jordan's team.

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Sixers won the title in 82-83 season--they swept the Lakers in the finals. Sixers Championship Season

Edit--just noticed you said couldn't win a title with McGinnis, but acknowledge he won with Malone... so,in the words of Emily Litella, never mind...

MSaviolives said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concordtom said:

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So he ranks Dr. as the #3 Small Forward behind:
Lebron
Bird
-Dr. J
KD
Kawai
Pippen
Elgin

---

I appreciate you giving some unexpected respect to an older player like Dr. J, who was indeed a fabulous basketball player.

However, any list of the all-time greatest small forwards that does not include Rick Barry has no credibility.

My own list runs like this:

Lebron
Bird
Baylor and Barry (tied)
Durant
Erving

Lebron and Bird have the best overall stats and both led their teams to 3 NBA titles each. Both played alongside great players, which helped. It also helped Lebron that the Warriors were banged up in one of those title runs. Stuff happens.

Baylor was the best small forward to never win an NBA title. He is the best rebounder on the list, and if you did not guard him well, he could drop 60 on you. Barry had great stats and he also could drop 60 on you, but he was the best leader and passer, IMO, on the list. He took a team of very average players to the NBA title, beating the heavily favored Bullets in the final, 4-0.

Durant is the best SF around today.

Erving had good stats, but could not win a title, even playing along side George McGinnis. He was more of an individual star, and would not likely have won an NBA title had not Moses Malone come along.

I would not include Leonard on the list. He's a good defender, but does not have comparable stats to the rest on the list . I don't think he wins his ring if KD was healthy.

Pippin was a good defender, but again, his stats are not comparable to any on the list of all-time great small forwards. He won 6 rings, I think, but I don't think he wins them without being on Jordan's team.

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Sixers won the title in 82-83 season--they swept the Lakers in the finals. Sixers Championship Season

Edit--just noticed you said couldn't win a title with McGinnis, but acknowledge he won with Malone... so,in the words of Emily Litella, never mind...

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Sorry, I could have worded that a lot better.

SFCityBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

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Kwame who? He was a good high school player. I think he averaged 10 points in the NBA one season. And last I looked, he was not in today's game any more.

As Dr. J said in an interview a couple years ago at the PAC12 Tournament, when asked how the players of today would compare to the players of his day, "Oh, they're athletic, but they do a lot of things now that we were not allowed to do."

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Irving is actually one of the few whose talent and skill could translate to being serviceable in today's era. But there aren't many. And I'm not being facetious.

GBear4Life said:

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In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

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Oh. you're just funnin' us. I got to see Kwame up close.....his best moments were picking up
two quick fouls and being sent to the bench.

BEARUPINDC said:

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GBear4Life said:

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In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

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Oh. you're just funnin' us. I got to see Kwame up close.....his best moments were picking up
two quick fouls and being sent to the bench.

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lol...I know he was bad. I use Kwame to illuminate just how bad players of yesteryear were. Kwame's size and athletic ability would be enough to dominate 98% of the big men 60 years ago.

SFCityBear said:

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concordtom said:

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So he ranks Dr. as the #3 Small Forward behind:
Lebron
Bird
-Dr. J
KD
Kawai
Pippen
Elgin

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I appreciate you giving some unexpected respect to an older player like Dr. J, who was indeed a fabulous basketball player.

However, any list of the all-time greatest small forwards that does not include Rick Barry has no credibility.
.

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Just for clarity,
The initial list was not mine but the guy in the original post's commentary.

ncbears said:

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I saw Dr. J in the ABA (with the Nets who had to sell/give Dr. J to the Sixers for the Nets to join the NBA) and, yeah, he was that good.

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Care to explain the politics/economics of that decision?
I'm unaware.
Thx.

GBear4Life said:

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SFCityBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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In today's game he'd be carrying jock straps, perhaps in the G-League. Kwame Brown would own him.

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Kwame who? He was a good high school player. I think he averaged 10 points in the NBA one season. And last I looked, he was not in today's game any more.

As Dr. J said in an interview a couple years ago at the PAC12 Tournament, when asked how the players of today would compare to the players of his day, "Oh, they're athletic, but they do a lot of things now that we were not allowed to do."

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Irving is actually one of the few whose talent and skill could translate to being serviceable in today's era. But there aren't many. And I'm not being facetious.

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It seems there is no end on the Bear Insider to those who may or may not have seen basketball as it was played many years ago, but wish to state that the players they see now are vastly superior to players of yore. Some of this is good-natured, poking fun at the older generation of fans who fondly remember the game they grew up playing, which of course is the foundation of today's game, but is hardly recognizable to many older fans as having anything much more to do with the game we played, other than the dimensions of the court, the height of the basket, and the size and weight of the ball. Some of the posts are not so good-natured, even a little mean-spirited, much like a boy disrespecting his father's abilities, as many boys do at some point in their coming of age. Some of it here on the BI is out and out trolling, designed to provoke one's elders, and can get pretty annoying. Many fans who have never seen the old game as it was played seem to think they have license to be critical of the old game and especially its players for some reason. It is one reason I began posting on the BI years ago.

I don't know your reasons for the exaggeration when criticizing the older players, I don't ever remember the greats like Wilt, or Russell bashing George Mikan or the other centers of an even earlier generation. I never heard Shaq bashing Wilt or Russell. Even with all the trash talk that goes on in games, it seems to be reserved for opponents in one's own generation, not for those who went before. It is a reason I trust the statements of former players over the statements of today's fans, who are guided more by emotion than facts.

The fact is the two games are governed by vastly different rules, and players from each of those eras grew up practicing the techniques and moves applicable to the rules of the game in each era. It takes many years for a player to become skilled at dribbling without palming the ball, and many years to become skilled at dribbling when palming is allowed. For one thing, palming allows players with small hands to become better dribblers. Dribblers like Jerry West or Bob Cousy look awkward today, because they weren't allowed to put their hand on the side of the ball or under it like today. If you dropped a dribbler like Cousy into today's game, he'd fail or take years to learn how to palm the ball. If you took a dribbler like Curry and put him into the game of 60 years ago, with those referees, he would have learn to dribble without palming, or fail as a player. West and Cousy also grew up without a Eurostep being legal. I would say that the truly great players of either generation could probably adapt to playing under the rules of another generation with a little less practice than a good player, because the great ones have for the most part been very smart players, the ones who create new moves, techniques and shots for the rules of the game in their era. They could probably do that in any era.

Over 20 years ago or so, Russell asked Wilt, "You averaged 50 points one season. What could you average today? "Oh, about 75," said Wilt. He went on to explain that with the rules favoring the offensive player and no one allowed to put their hands on him, it would be easy to score 75, maybe more. Wilt played in an era when charging was not allowed. He made that statement even before that silly semicircle on the floor, inside of which, charging is allowed.

Russell also asked Wilt, who was the better player of the two. Wilt told Russell that Russell was the better player, because, he said, "You made your teammates better, by making them look good. My teammates made ME better, by passing me the ball all the time, making me look good." That is another difference in the game today. Self-centered play, one-on-one, has become the norm with modern motion offenses, with the exception of Steve Kerr and a few other coaches, who focus the most on making all the players look good, not just the stars.

Frankly, I think your defense of players from a bygone era is grounded less in objective observation and analysis than nostalgia for an era that resonates with you personally.

Somebody posted something about Rick Barry needing to be on any list for best forwards. Rick Barry couldn't sniff the court today. I think that's patently obvious, even discounting for the different rules. These guys simply can't compete physically, athletically. They are quicker, faster, stronger, and more skilled. It's not an aim to denigrate older players, just an observation of what is, and what isn't.

Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

Every generation thinks what was going on when its members were young is superior to what's going on now ...

Go back to the '60s, and fans then complained about the "modern" style and how things were much better in the '50s.

And it's not just sports -- it's everything. "The good old days" were always better, despite the fact that by almost every metric, "today" is better (life expectancy, infant mortality, quality of life, and on and on and on).

Of course, if the good old days were really better, then life in 1890 was better than life now ...

I didn't see Dr J play, so when I saw this YouTube I was impressed with his athleticism

But he was also a successful pro and knows the hard work that it takes

With genes and a father like that, I hope his son can be a contributor on this team during his time at Cal

bearister said:

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Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

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Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Did you guys actually watch these guys play and the guys they play against?

Do you realize the average 8th grade starting PG has better ball handling skills than the perimeter greats of yesteryear? Off-hand dribbling was virtually non existent.

Rick Barry wouldn't be able to get off a shot. Despite the rule changes, defenders are MUCH better today. Barry would get D'd up all day. He wouldn't be able to dribble around anybody with his p**s poor ball handling and slow feet. His game is trash in today's league.

Finals teams of the 60s/70s, look at these scrubs lol. HS-level athletic ability and skills in today's era, and zero defense.

Clearly, Pete Maravich couldn't even sniff Rich Astley's jockstrap. He'd get rickrolled.

Maravich maybe could be a good Globe Trotter

BearSD said:

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bearister said:

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Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

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Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

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There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.

I get it. Some folks are concerned that old tymers and their accomplishments aren't "denigrated" by wide spread acknowledgement that there's no room in today's game for them.

GBear4Life said:

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I get it. Some folks are concerned that old tymers and their accomplishments aren't "denigrated" by wide spread acknowledgement that there's no room in today's game for them.

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Everything's relative. There are no absolutes. You tend to talk in absolutes. Also you take this stuff
waaay too seriously.

there's no room in today's game for them

OK, then you're saying that there's absolutely no room on the Washington Wizards for Bill Russell, Rick Barry or Elgin Baylor.

Yeah well...name one uninjured** Wizard (other than Bradley Beal) who would have even the barest
chance of playing well against those guys right now.. ...Russell and Baylor are both 84. Barry's a
youngster at 75.


**John Wall is out for year with yet another injury. He's become too much of a party-boy anyway.

good lord there are exceptions, but none of the very few would be great players.

You named 3 all time greats as if you're making some credible argument against my observation.

BEARUPINDC said:

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BearSD said:

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bearister said:

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Rick had the musculature of the modern player. He had good handles, could shoot the three and rarely missed a free throw. He would sniff the court in the modern era, and even more so because he would be allowed to palm the ball, take 5 steps, and have less physical defense to go against.

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Yeah, I don't see how anyone could say that Barry couldn't play today. Any NBA team today would love to have Barry in his prime.

There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

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There are other players from past eras who wouldn't fit as well today, especially slow moving big men who scored only out of the low post and played physical defense back when the refs followed a "no autopsy no foul" rule for contact in the paint.

Wes Unseld wants you to say that to his face.

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If he played in today's game, Unseld would have plenty of time for that after fouling out in the second quarter.

Swen Nater would foul out in the first quarter.