it will be interesting to see if any get playing time under Fox since Jones never really gave any a chance. Maybe there is a good player that has been overlooked.

I see Logan Alters listed on the roster. Is he on campus, working out with the team? How does he look?

how often are walk-ons in MBB worthy of playing time? It's not like football.

GBear4Life said:

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how often are walk-ons in MBB worthy of playing time? It's not like football.

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Not much different than football. If anything, the smaller roster for basketball makes opportunities for PT more likely due to recruiting misses, injuries, transfers, academics, early departures and holding out a scholarship for a top recruit who doesn't come. Or just foul trouble. Especially at Cal where we get a high level of walkon because admission is not easy and the degree is valuable so a spot as a preferred walk-on is comparable to playing for an Ivy. Jeremy Lim was prepare to walk-on at Cal, for example.

As far as the OP's question goes, it a difficult to say, since we have so many new scholarship players. A walkon's chance of getting PT depends as much on their ability as the ability of the scholarship players. Plus, some coaches are more willing to play walkons than others. Though he didn't typically play walkons at Georgia except during what he called "walkon minutes" at the end of s blowout, Fox praised them publicly and is a defense first coach, so that might be a factor as it was for Braun.

Not to say a walk-on can't be a contributor, but it's much more rare and Ido think it's a little different from football. How many first round NBA draft picks have been former walk-ons like Baker Mayfield, JJ Watt, Daniel Jones, etc have been in the NFL? The requirements of basketball are such that it's much more oriented around purely physical outliers with respect to height and size. It's easy to see a skilled 6-8 guy and assess his ability to contribute at the D1 level but comparatively speaking, much harder to see an Addison Ooms or Patrick Laird and make that determination.

Since we are talking walk-ons that play, Ryan Forehan-Kelly comes to mind. I found this writeup prior to his senior season:

https://calbears.com/news/2013/4/17/208187243.aspx

calumnus said:

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GBear4Life said:

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how often are walk-ons in MBB worthy of playing time? It's not like football.

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Not much different than football. If anything, the smaller roster for basketball makes opportunities for PT more likely due to recruiting misses, injuries, transfers, academics, early departures and holding out a scholarship for a top recruit who doesn't come. Or just foul trouble.Especially at Cal where we get a high level of walkon because admission is not easy and the degree is valuable so a spot as a preferred walk-on is comparable to playing for an Ivy. Jeremy Lim was prepare to walk-on at Cal, for example.

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Quote:

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As far as the OP's question goes, it a difficult to say, since we have so many new scholarship players. A walkon's chance of getting PT depends as much on their ability as the ability of the scholarship players. Plus, some coaches are more willing to play walkons than others. Though he didn't typically play walkons at Georgia except during what he called "walkon minutes" at the end of s blowout, Fox praised them publicly and is a defense first coach, so that might be a factor as it was for Braun.

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I'm not quite understanding this. Do you mean at Cal, as walk-ons we get a high-skilled basketball player or a basketball player with high academic qualifications? I agree that that the academic side of going to Cal and getting a Cal degree is a big draw, but it does not mean Cal would get better walk-on basketball players than other schools, does it?

I agree with your reasons why a player might get playing time. There should be many more opportunities for walk-ons to play today, because there just aren't enough good basketball recruits to fill the rotations of 325 teams, whereas with earlier eras, there were far fewer teams recruiting. In those earlier times, the difference between a walk-on and a rotation player was not as wide as it is today, however, IMO, and that reduces their chances of playing. Players like Rafi Chalian and Garrett Galvin really were not capable of playing in D1. Ryan Forehan-Kelly did prove worthy. I'd add Jeff Powers and Robert Thurman to the list, but in their case, they were transfer walk-ons, and they did the asking by contacting Montgomery first, I believe. Both were serviceable players who played well for Cal.

According to the photo in the "Now on Campus" thread, and Graguna's post in that thread, Alters is on campus.

I hope he alters the won loss ratio.

The three-point shot is more important than ever. Therefore, Alters will get some PT. Henry Bibby of USC considered walk-ons to be a nuisance. He refused to have them on his teams.

Cal has a long list of walk-on players who have contributed, and for many different coaches

more recently Wyking played 2 walk-ons significant minutes (one each year)

some of the biggest/best walk-ons was the Thurmanator and RFK, but others have played good minutes during prime time

also, I think they contribute to the team success in other ways, including as practice players

I remember watching former cal walk-on PG, Gaspion in the RSF last year. He hit about 6 out of 7 threes in a row against solid players, including a former WSU wing

Besides his shooting, he was ball handling, passing and defending and looking like he wasn't even trying hard, yet dominating in a non-ball hogging way

I remember he only got spot minutes as a walk-on, but he protected the ball as the PG and never tried to do too much. After seeing him lit it up from 3 in the RSF, I wondered why he never (to my memory) ever took an open 3.

of course this was against RSF talent, and the defense is very uneven, but my point is many of these walk-ons have legit skills

as for our current walk-ons, they may have some talent (e.g. shooting, ball handling) but they are way undersized so I think it may take to their senior year to really contribute on the court

Any player on a Pac-12 roster is off-the-charts good against normal humans.

Any player on a P5 scholarship can completely dominate any pickup game he wants.

Any player who has played a minute in the NBA would be a god in RSF.

HoopDreams said:

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Cal has a long list of walk-on players who have contributed, and for many different coaches

more recently Wyking played 2 walk-ons significant minutes (one each year)

some of the biggest/best walk-ons was the Thurmanator and RFK, but others have played good minutes during prime time

also, I think they contribute to the team success in other ways, including as practice players

I remember watching former cal walk-on PG, Gaspion in the RSF last year. He hit about 6 out of 7 threes in a row against solid players, including a former WSU wing

Besides his shooting, he was ball handling, passing and defending and looking like he wasn't even trying hard, yet dominating in a non-ball hogging way

I remember he only got spot minutes as a walk-on, but he protected the ball as the PG and never tried to do too much. After seeing him lit it up from 3 in the RSF, I wondered why he never (to my memory) ever took an open 3.

of course this was against RSF talent, and the defense is very uneven, but my point is many of these walk-ons have legit skills

as for our current walk-ons, they may have some talent (e.g. shooting, ball handling) but they are way undersized so I think it may take to their senior year to really contribute on the court

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My recollection is that Thurmanator was a transfer (from Denver?) not a walk-on. Big difference. RFK showed significant improvement each season from walk-on to scholarship. A great example that everyone does not complete their development before they leave high school.

The Thurmanator was a transfer from D2 (or D3 maybe) Norwich but he was initially a walk-on. Was put on full scholarship at some point though.

Edit: The Denver transfer was Jeff Powers.

Robert "Thurmanator" Thurman (6'-10"; 265#) transferred to Cal from Norwich University (military college in Vermont) at the end of his frosh year. He comes from a military (Camp Pendleton, CA) family.

The Thurmanator averaged 11.4 ppg and 6.9 rpg at Nu with 42 blocks in his one season. He was All-Great Northeast Atlantic Conference third team.

The rest is history.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Not to say a walk-on can't be a contributor, but it's much more rare and Ido think it's a little different from football. How many first round NBA draft picks have been former walk-ons like Baker Mayfield, JJ Watt, Daniel Jones, etc have been in the NFL? The requirements of basketball are such that it's much more oriented around purely physical outliers with respect to height and size. It's easy to see a skilled 6-8 guy and assess his ability to contribute at the D1 level but comparatively speaking, much harder to see an Addison Ooms or Patrick Laird and make that determination.

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Scottie Pippen is the walk on who had the best NBA career. Andre Drummond was also a walk on. Not arguing with your point, just offering up a couple surprises.

SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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GBear4Life said:

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how often are walk-ons in MBB worthy of playing time? It's not like football.

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Not much different than football. If anything, the smaller roster for basketball makes opportunities for PT more likely due to recruiting misses, injuries, transfers, academics, early departures and holding out a scholarship for a top recruit who doesn't come. Or just foul trouble.Especially at Cal where we get a high level of walkon because admission is not easy and the degree is valuable so a spot as a preferred walk-on is comparable to playing for an Ivy. Jeremy Lim was prepare to walk-on at Cal, for example.

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Quote:

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As far as the OP's question goes, it a difficult to say, since we have so many new scholarship players. A walkon's chance of getting PT depends as much on their ability as the ability of the scholarship players. Plus, some coaches are more willing to play walkons than others. Though he didn't typically play walkons at Georgia except during what he called "walkon minutes" at the end of s blowout, Fox praised them publicly and is a defense first coach, so that might be a factor as it was for Braun.

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I'm not quite understanding this. Do you mean at Cal, as walk-ons we get a high-skilled basketball player or a basketball player with high academic qualifications? I agree that that the academic side of going to Cal and getting a Cal degree is a big draw, but it does not mean Cal would get better walk-on basketball players than other schools, does it?

I agree with your reasons why a player might get playing time. There should be many more opportunities for walk-ons to play today, because there just aren't enough good basketball recruits to fill the rotations of 325 teams, whereas with earlier eras, there were far fewer teams recruiting. In those earlier times, the difference between a walk-on and a rotation player was not as wide as it is today, however, IMO, and that reduces their chances of playing. Players like Rafi Chalian and Garrett Galvin really were not capable of playing in D1. Ryan Forehan-Kelly did prove worthy. I'd add Jeff Powers and Robert Thurman to the list, but in their case, they were transfer walk-ons, and they did the asking by contacting Montgomery first, I believe. Both were serviceable players who played well for Cal.

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Because of Cal's academic reputation and the difficulty of admissions the fact recruited walk-ons get an admission slot is very enticing for academically oriented players whose other options are Ivy League, DII small schools, or even scholarships to non power conference schools with lesser academics, especially if they are a California resident, have a Gates Millinium Scholarship or their dad is Julius Erving.

TheSouseFamily said:

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The Thurmanator was a transfer from D2 (or D3 maybe) Norwich but he was initially a walk-on. Was put on full scholarship at some point though.

Edit: The Denver transfer was Jeff Powers.

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Gracias

Great game at Washington and against unlv in the ncaa tournament. Spoke to hisvdad who was as prod as he could be at the San Jose games.

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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GBear4Life said:

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how often are walk-ons in MBB worthy of playing time? It's not like football.

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Not much different than football. If anything, the smaller roster for basketball makes opportunities for PT more likely due to recruiting misses, injuries, transfers, academics, early departures and holding out a scholarship for a top recruit who doesn't come. Or just foul trouble.Especially at Cal where we get a high level of walkon because admission is not easy and the degree is valuable so a spot as a preferred walk-on is comparable to playing for an Ivy. Jeremy Lim was prepare to walk-on at Cal, for example.

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Quote:

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As far as the OP's question goes, it a difficult to say, since we have so many new scholarship players. A walkon's chance of getting PT depends as much on their ability as the ability of the scholarship players. Plus, some coaches are more willing to play walkons than others. Though he didn't typically play walkons at Georgia except during what he called "walkon minutes" at the end of s blowout, Fox praised them publicly and is a defense first coach, so that might be a factor as it was for Braun.

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I'm not quite understanding this. Do you mean at Cal, as walk-ons we get a high-skilled basketball player or a basketball player with high academic qualifications? I agree that that the academic side of going to Cal and getting a Cal degree is a big draw, but it does not mean Cal would get better walk-on basketball players than other schools, does it?

I agree with your reasons why a player might get playing time. There should be many more opportunities for walk-ons to play today, because there just aren't enough good basketball recruits to fill the rotations of 325 teams, whereas with earlier eras, there were far fewer teams recruiting. In those earlier times, the difference between a walk-on and a rotation player was not as wide as it is today, however, IMO, and that reduces their chances of playing. Players like Rafi Chalian and Garrett Galvin really were not capable of playing in D1. Ryan Forehan-Kelly did prove worthy. I'd add Jeff Powers and Robert Thurman to the list, but in their case, they were transfer walk-ons, and they did the asking by contacting Montgomery first, I believe. Both were serviceable players who played well for Cal.

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Because of Cal's academic reputation and the difficulty of admissions the fact recruited walk-ons get an admission slot is very enticing for academically oriented players whose other options are Ivy League, DII small schools, or even scholarships to non power conference schools with lesser academics, especially if they are a California resident, have a Gates Millinium Scholarship or their dad is Julius Erving.

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OK, got it now. Thanks.

other than RFK, who is in this long line of successful walk ons?

They may not qualify as successful by your definition, but walk-ons that played significant minutes for Cal that come to mind include:

Eddie Javius
Andrew Brigham
Sean Harrell
Alex Pribble
Conor Famulener
AJ Diggs

Bjorn91 said:

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They may not qualify as successful by your definition, but walk-ons that played significant minutes for Cal that come to mind include:

Eddie Javius
Andrew Brigham
Sean Harrell
Alex Pribble
Conor Famulener
AJ Diggs

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In short, relying on walk-ons is not optimal.

Hoping for walk-on help is almost always wishful thinking.

Success in college basketball comes down to four things:

1) Recruiting
2) Recruiting
3) Recruiting
4) And some more recruiting

Bjorn91 said:

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They may not qualify as successful by your definition, but walk-ons that played significant minutes for Cal that come to mind include:

Eddie Javius
Andrew Brigham
Sean Harrell
Alex Pribble
Conor Famulener
AJ Diggs

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Yeah just because a walk on plays, doesn't mean they were "good", it means there was a recruiting and depth issue.

Diggs was not good, but yes he played consistent and significant minutes. I loved Conor. Decent player.

I don't consider this list impressive for the past 30 years of basketball.

GBear4Life said:

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other than RFK, who is in this long line of successful walk ons?

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And RFK wasn't a true walk on. He was recruited when we had suffered schollie reductions due to Bozeman and I believe he was promised an eventual scholarship. In any case, he was always looked at as an eventual contributor. He wasn't a practice player who got playing time because of recruiting deficiencies.

OaktownBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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other than RFK, who is in this long line of successful walk ons?

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And RFK wasn't a true walk on. He was recruited when we had suffered schollie reductions due to Bozeman and I believe he was promised an eventual scholarship. In any case, he was always looked at as an eventual contributor. He wasn't a practice player who got playing time because of recruiting deficiencies.

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Interesting. I never knew that. Was a similar deal made with TFK? Maybe that would explain the Mom's displeasure with his playing time.

my understanding is most if not all of the walk ons were 'recruited' walk-ons, and where given various expectations of getting a schollie at some point

therefore I consider RFK a true walk-on for purposes of this discussion. if RFK was a great talent then he would have gotten many full rides at other schools including power 5 conferences. The fact is he came to Cal without a schollie

However, as we've said before Thurman was a walk on and a solid contributor his last two years

Cole Well and Glapion played some spot PT minutes
Nick Hamilton played 14 minutes a game
Powers scored some in quality minutes
Wasn't Smith a walk-on his freshmen year?

Walk ons contribute to the team in other ways, including as practice players

HoopDreams said:

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my understanding is most if not all of the walk ons were 'recruited' walk-ons, and where given various expectations of getting a schollie at some point

therefore I consider RFK a true walk-on for purposes of this discussion. if RFK was a great talent then he would have gotten many full rides at other schools including power 5 conferences. The fact is he came to Cal without a schollie

However, as we've said before Thurman was a walk on and a solid contributor his last two years

Cole Well and Glapion played some spot PT minutes
Nick Hamilton played 14 minutes a game
Powers scored some in quality minutes
Wasn't Smith a walk-on his freshmen year?

Walk ons contribute to the team in other ways, including as practice players

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If you don't want to distinguish him, that is fine, but the fact is he was recruited to play in games and most Walk one are not. The career he had was not unexpected.

And my understanding is that no, TFK did not have the same deal.

HoopDreams said:

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my understanding is most if not all of the walk ons were 'recruited' walk-ons, and where given various expectations of getting a schollie at some point

therefore I consider RFK a true walk-on for purposes of this discussion. if RFK was a great talent then he would have gotten many full rides at other schools including power 5 conferences. The fact is he came to Cal without a schollie

However, as we've said before Thurman was a walk on and a solid contributor his last two years

Cole Well and Glapion played some spot PT minutes
Nick Hamilton played 14 minutes a game
Powers scored some in quality minutes
Wasn't Smith a walk-on his freshmen year?

Walk ons contribute to the team in other ways, including as practice players

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Also Tony Gonzalez walked on from the football team. Brandon Smith was on campus as a walkon until a scholie opened up. Jeremy Lim was prepared to walk on at Cal. Mark Eaton was a walkon at UCLA and had a decent NBA career....Scottie Pippin and Jeff Hornacek started as walkons in college.

Cal's success with walkons has been better in football, but it doesn't have to. Big man projects and undersized guards are guys to bring in as walkons.

The biggest issue in basketball is even many scholarship players do not see playing time as coaches shorten their rotations.

Hard to imagine an impact walk on in this day and age given the availability of information and the emergence of small schools as national recruiters. If a kid has any college level ability, some small school will find and recruit them with a scholarship, and it's also no longer the case that players with NBA aspirations feel they have to be at major school.

Another change is that D2 schools now can give out much more money than in the past ... so there's less incentive to walk on in D1 and try to earn a scholarship, not to mention playing time.

fyi for social media types, Th3Thurmin4tor is accessible on twitter, and booking a honeymoon iirc:

Quote:

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Current Real Estate Developer. Former California Golden Bear #34 & overseas professional basketball player. Cal undergrad. Univ. of Worcester, U.K. postgrad.
Pleasanton, CA Joined June 2009
468 following; 861 followers

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OaktownBear said:

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GBear4Life said:

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other than RFK, who is in this long line of successful walk ons?

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And RFK wasn't a true walk on. He was recruited when we had suffered schollie reductions due to Bozeman and I believe he was promised an eventual scholarship. In any case, he was always looked at as an eventual contributor. He wasn't a practice player who got playing time because of recruiting deficiencies.

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I don't think that is true.

RFK was a freshman in 1998. The prior year Braun brought in all the transfers, Carlisle, Kilgore, Gill, Boyd, Elson and freshman Lampley. Sean Marks then graduated and Kenyon Jones was forced off the team.
1998 new Scholarships went to S. Hughes, Dennis Gates and Shahar Gordon, not RFK.

The following year, 1999, the transfers left and we brought in 5 freshmen: Legans, Shipp, Vanderlaan, Donte Smith, and Brian Wethers. A 6th scholarship was given to senior walkon Robbie Jones, but not sophomore RFK. Seems like if he was promised one, he would have gotten it then. Clearly Jones had never been promised a scholarship, certainly not from Braun.

RFK got a scholarship the next year as a junior "as reward for his hard work" the press release is in this article:

http://www.socalhoops.com/prep00/0500/forehankelly0515.htm

ClayK said:

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Another change is that D2 schools now can give out much more money than in the past ... so there's less incentive to walk on in D1 and try to earn a scholarship, not to mention playing time.

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Which is why I am saying Cal has a comparative advantage with walkons. Thurman gave up a D2 scholarship to transfer and walkon at Cal, because he wanted to be an engineer and could get a Cal degree paying in-state tuition. Would he have done the same to walkon at ASU? I seriously doubt it.

I am sure Julius Erving's son could have gotten a D2 scholarship. His dad has money, the education and conference was more important.

Nick Hamilton was CIF MVP and two-time ALL City player in LA. As a 4.2 student he could have played Ivy League and as a Gates Millineum scholarship winner, he could have walked on anywhere. He chose to walkon at Cal.

Now no one is saying we get "great" players to walkon (though Jeremy Lim would have been one). What I am saying is we possibly get some of the best walkons in the country, which can sometimes end being better than some of our scholarship playersmaking up for recruiting shortfalls, losses to injury, academics, etc.

Clearly Cal is currently in a situation where we have a lot of unheralded newcomers on scholarship and a good walkon could challenge for playing time.