The Catholics

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R90
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1:13p, 12/2/19
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
It's all just entertainment, so find a way to enjoy it.
The refs are there to feed your hatred addiction and keep the games close.
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AunBear89
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1:38p, 12/2/19
I'll be at the Santa Clara game. Good seats still available. Easy access to the arena from CalTrain.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
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SFCityBear
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In reply to R90 • 1:42p, 12/2/19
R90 said:
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
I don't think Cal should be an underdog to Santa Clara. They are 8-1, but the only good team they have played is Stanford, an unranked team. Two of their wins have come against Division 2 opponents. They do have a veteran coach. We should be underdogs to St Marys and USF.
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R90
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In reply to SFCityBear • 2:06p, 12/2/19
SFCityBear said:
I don't think Cal should be an underdog to Santa Clara. They are 8-1, but the only good team they have
played is Stanford, an unranked team. Two of their wins have come against Division 2 opponents. They do have a veteran coach.
KenPoms:
+15.43 St. Mary's
+5.46 USF
+2.88 Santa Clara
-0.96 Cal

Sagarins:
84.02 St. Mary's
77.98 San Francisco
75.85 Santa Clara
73.12 Cal
+3.12 for home court advantage

Vegas uses algorithms that yield very close results to Sagarin's ratings, even this early in the season. If we somehow blow out USF we could be favored against Santa Clara, but if we lose to USF as expected we should be an underdog at Santa Clara.

It's all just entertainment, so find a way to enjoy it.
The refs are there to feed your hatred addiction and keep the games close.
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SFCityBear
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In reply to R90 • 2:24p, 12/2/19
R90 said:
SFCityBear said:
I don't think Cal should be an underdog to Santa Clara. They are 8-1, but the only good team they have
played is Stanford, an unranked team. Two of their wins have come against Division 2 opponents. They do have a veteran coach.
KenPoms:
+15.43 St. Mary's
+5.46 USF
+2.88 Santa Clara
-0.96 Cal

Sagarins:
84.02 St. Mary's
77.98 San Francisco
75.85 Santa Clara
73.12 Cal
+3.12 for home court advantage

Vegas uses algorithms that yield very close results to Sagarin's ratings, even this early in the season. If we somehow blow out USF we could be favored against Santa Clara, but if we lose to USF as expected we should be an underdog at Santa Clara.

Well, we'll find out this week and next. Should be interesting.
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IssyBear
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In reply to R90 • 2:32p, 12/2/19
R90 said:
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
You're right about the thinking in past years, but this year I think it is good we are playing them and in their houses. Our team needs visiting team game experience, and this is a cheap way to get it. I'm anxious to see if Fox has prepared our guys to be strong in these environments and to even win a few of the games. I love the job he is doing so far.
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SFCityBear
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In reply to IssyBear • 4:10p, 12/2/19
IssyBear said:
R90 said:
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
You're right about the thinking in past years, but this year I think it is good we are playing them and in their houses. Our team needs visiting team game experience, and this is a cheap way to get it. I'm anxious to see if Fox has prepared our guys to be strong in these environments and to even win a few of the games. I love the job he is doing so far.
I agree. I think it is time to stop thinking negatively about these games, afraid of losing them, with no real benefit if we win. Games like this, playing a local opponent on their turf, often a small gym, but filled with hostile fans, can prepare Cal for the all-important road games of the PAC12 in bigger arenas, where the crowds will also be hostile, with few Cal fans in attendance. And winning these local games can be important for attracting good Bay Area recruits. Local kids get to see Cal play some games that they otherwise would not have seen. Cal used to have strong rivalries with all these teams, and it would be good to encourage these rivalries again, not only to boost attendance, but for more intense competition, rather than playing teams like Incarnate Word in Haas.
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Big C
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In reply to SFCityBear • 4:26p, 12/2/19
SFCityBear said:
IssyBear said:
R90 said:
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
You're right about the thinking in past years, but this year I think it is good we are playing them and in their houses. Our team needs visiting team game experience, and this is a cheap way to get it. I'm anxious to see if Fox has prepared our guys to be strong in these environments and to even win a few of the games. I love the job he is doing so far.
I agree. I think it is time to stop thinking negatively about these games, afraid of losing them, with no real benefit if we win. Games like this, playing a local opponent on their turf, often a small gym, but filled with hostile fans, can prepare Cal for the all-important road games of the PAC12 in bigger arenas, where the crowds will also be hostile, with few Cal fans in attendance. And winning these local games can be important for attracting good Bay Area recruits. Local kids get to see Cal play some games that they otherwise would not have seen. Cal used to have strong rivalries with all these teams, and it would be good to encourage these rivalries again, not only to boost attendance, but for more intense competition, rather than playing teams like Incarnate Word in Haas.
Agree. Plus, these are two-for-one scheduling agreements, IIRC.
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bearister
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4:28p, 12/2/19
I say this is a golden opportunity to segue into a discussion about religion like the one that germinated in the Furd v Notre Dame thread on the Football Board and that grew so toxic it got a Mod assisted suicide.

No, in all seriousness, Cal should expect to beat the Dons and the Broncos and to lose to the ANZAC Allstar Team. Other than the Zags and the Gaels, our Bears could dent their share of fenders in the WCC.

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BeachedBear
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In reply to R90 • 7:54a, 12/3/19
R90 said:
December 4th, @ USF
December 7th, @ Santa Clara
December 14th, hosting St. Mary's

Times have changed. We used to avoid scheduling the 3 Bay Area Catholic schools because they were trap games, where they'd be looking to pull off a big upset, and where a loss hurt us a lot more than a win would help.

Now the AD probably sees them as cost effective, and a chance to sell more tickets to visiting fans or collect more revenue when we visit them.

In the past we'd never consider scheduling games on their floor. We'll likely be underdogs for all 3 games. If we've baked Pac-12 refs into the agreements we have a decent chance of taking 2 out of 3.
Your bolded point is spot on. In the past, Cal was regularly concerned about seeding or bubble position. We have fallen so far from that level, that the positives of these local rivalries far outweigh any negative perceptions.

Perhaps, if we return to a program that is regularly near the top 25, concerned about seeding and battling for conference titles, then we can concern ourselves with good/bad/ OOC challenges. For now, we need to compete against all takers. Any place, Any time, Any way.
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calbearinamaze
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In reply to R90 • 8:10a, 12/3/19
Quote:


Vegas uses algorithms that yield very close results to Sagarin's ratings, even this early in the season. If we somehow blow out USF we could be favored against Santa Clara, but if we lose to USF as expected we should be an underdog at Santa Clara.

Thanks for doing all of this. Great idea linking Sagarin to Vegas odds.

I've been a long-time follower of Jeff Sagarin:

1. his methodology much more accessible than others
2. he started out programming in Fortran
If you believe in forever
Then life is just a one-night stand
If there's a rock and roll heaven
Well you know they've got a hell of a band
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R90
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8:16a, 12/3/19
It would be interesting have a Bay Area Cup, where each of the six Bay Area Schools all played each other each season and the round robin produced a winner.

St. Mary's, USF and Santa Clara all play each other twice in conference and could schedule 1 game against the other 3.
Cal and Stanford the same.
San Jose St. wouldn't have anyone in conference, so they could play Cal and Stanford home and away each season, one game only against Cal & Stanford could count double, or the number of games for each team could just be uneven.
It's all just entertainment, so find a way to enjoy it.
The refs are there to feed your hatred addiction and keep the games close.
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HearstMining
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In reply to R90 • 8:41a, 12/3/19
R90 said:
It would be interesting have a Bay Area Cup, where each of the six Bay Area Schools all played each other each season and the round robin produced a winner.

St. Mary's, USF and Santa Clara all play each other twice in conference and could schedule 1 game against the other 3.
Cal and Stanford the same.
San Jose St. wouldn't have anyone in conference, so they could play Cal and Stanford home and away each season, one game only against Cal & Stanford could count double, or the number of games for each team could just be uneven.
During its hey-day in the . . . 1960s-1980s(?), didn't the Cable Car Classic have some number of local teams plus a couple of generally big-time teams from the east or midwest? I think the CCC still goes on, but it's definitely less significant now.
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caltagjohnson
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8:56a, 12/3/19
I will be at the Santa Clara at Nevada game tomorrow night. I will give you a report. Nevada is playing well right now. Outstanding guards. No experience at forward. Their 5-10 SG, Jazz Johnson, hit 7-10 threes as they blew out Bowling Green in the final of the Paradise Jam in the Virgin Islands.
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caltagjohnson
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8:57a, 12/3/19
I will be at the Santa Clara at Nevada game tomorrow night. I will give you a report. Nevada is playing well right now. Outstanding guards. No experience at forward. Their 5-10 SG, Jazz Johnson, hit 7-10 threes as they blew out Bowling Green in the final of the Paradise Jam in the Virgin Islands.
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calbearinamaze
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In reply to caltagjohnson • 9:11a, 12/3/19
caltagjohnson said:
I will be at the Santa Clara at Nevada game tomorrow night. I will give you a report. Nevada is playing well right now. Outstanding guards. No experience at forward. Their 5-10 SG, Jazz Johnson, hit 7-10 threes as they blew out Bowling Green in the final of the Paradise Jam in the Virgin Islands.
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
If you believe in forever
Then life is just a one-night stand
If there's a rock and roll heaven
Well you know they've got a hell of a band
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R90
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In reply to calbearinamaze • 9:46a, 12/3/19
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
It's all just entertainment, so find a way to enjoy it.
The refs are there to feed your hatred addiction and keep the games close.
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calbearinamaze
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In reply to R90 • 10:27a, 12/3/19
R90 said:
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
Thank you.

Sean Miller really attracts kids...why I'm not so sure.
If you believe in forever
Then life is just a one-night stand
If there's a rock and roll heaven
Well you know they've got a hell of a band
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Big C
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In reply to R90 • 12:43p, 12/3/19
R90 said:
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
He ended up at Arizona? Damn, I'm not really wishing him the best... Well, I wish him and his family health and happiness, but that's about it, same thing I wish for everybody else.

I had TOTALLY forgotten about him. I wonder if people ever approach him and ask, "Excuse me, didn't you use to be Jordan Brown, prep All-American?
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calbearinamaze
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In reply to Big C • 12:52p, 12/3/19
Big C said:
R90 said:
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
He ended up at Arizona? Damn, I'm not really wishing him the best... Well, I wish him and his family health and happiness, but that's about it, same thing I wish for everybody else.

I had TOTALLY forgotten about him. I wonder if people ever approach him and ask, "Excuse me, didn't you use to be Jordan Brown, prep All-American?
+1000
If you believe in forever
Then life is just a one-night stand
If there's a rock and roll heaven
Well you know they've got a hell of a band
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UrsaMajor
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4:33p, 12/3/19
Interestingly, Villanova doesn't worry about seeding when it plays in the Big 5 every year (Nova, LaSalle, Temple, St. Josephs and Penn).
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Pigskin Pete
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In reply to calbearinamaze • 1:47a, 12/4/19
bearup said:
R90 said:
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
Thank you.

Sean Miller really attracts kids...why I'm not so sure.
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calbearinamaze
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In reply to Pigskin Pete • 2:29a, 12/4/19
Pigskin Pete said:
bearup said:
R90 said:
bearup said:
Why did Jordan Brown transfer?
Where did he end up?
He's taking a redshirt year at Arizona. Not sure exactly why he left. Perhaps the coaching change.
Thank you.

Sean Miller really attracts kids...why I'm not so sure.
+1000

He limped to the finish last year....losing 10 out of 14.

Question: Does he pay off and/or have dirt on every decision-maker at Zona?
If you believe in forever
Then life is just a one-night stand
If there's a rock and roll heaven
Well you know they've got a hell of a band
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ClayK
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7:50a, 12/4/19
I think that playing these local games helps promote Bay Area men's basketball, and in the long run, it's good for Cal, good for the other schools and good for the sport. In the short term, a loss might sting, but keeping these games on the schedule will pay off in many ways, not the least of which is that over time, Cal will win the vast majority of the games.

An interesting sidelight: Tara VanDerveer at Stanford has always been willing to promote women's basketball by playing the local schools, but often they don't want to, despite having nothing to lose.

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BC Calfan
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In reply to ClayK • 8:28a, 12/4/19
ClayK said:
I think that playing these local games helps promote Bay Area men's basketball, and in the long run, it's good for Cal, good for the other schools and good for the sport. In the short term, a loss might sting, but keeping these games on the schedule will pay off in many ways, not the least of which is that over time, Cal will win the vast majority of the games.

An interesting sidelight: Tara VanDerveer at Stanford has always been willing to promote women's basketball by playing the local schools, but often they don't want to, despite having nothing to lose.

Yes. As a fan, I'm into these local games. Way more interesting than playing Southern Miss at Haas. There's only a small chance that these games would cost us a tourney bid---and you never know sometimes the committee rewards this type of scheduling.

Excited to go to the game tonight. It's not often I get to see the squad in their road blues and up close. When's the last time we played at War Memorial?!
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oskidunker
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9:14a, 12/4/19
Cal hasn't played a game at USF since 1997-98 or at Santa Clara since 1992-93. The Bears lost that game at USF and won at Santa Clara while armed with freshman point guard Jason Kidd.

Fox not happy to play these teams on the road. May not happen again any time soon.
Go Bears!
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bearister
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In reply to oskidunker • 9:58a, 12/4/19
oskidunker said:
Cal hasn't played a game at USF since 1997-98 or at Santa Clara since 1992-93. The Bears lost that game at USF and won at Santa Clara while armed with freshman point guard Jason Kidd.

Fox not happy to play these teams on the road. May not happen again any time soon.


The game vs Santa Clara was at the Shark Tank and featured Kidd v Nash. I was there.
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