Stanford Knocks Off Cal, 68-52

Poor Grant had to sit there as everyone criticized how crappy we are. I think in two years these kids will be much better, but it's painful now.

Ugly first half and terrible end of it

Hard to find any bright spots but I thought Grant's game was encouraging. Impressed that he went high for the tip. Shows how hard work in the weight room pays dividends. Also impressed that he has such great hands.

Other bright spot was we out rebounded the longer Stanford by 11

Dyson with another great defense, and made some plays on offense

Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

DJ had some moments and had a big block

Other than the great game by Grant, and the adequate game of Dyson, the rest of the 7 man rotation had extremely poor games.

I don't understand why we can't play inside out more when teams collapse on our post, and how we so rarely successfully execute a pick and roll

dear hoop dreams: it's called a lack of talent.

HoopDreams said:

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Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

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I'm still trying to recall a player who's hands improved over time.

Anyone?

The Thurmanator.

HoopDreams said:

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Ugly first half and terrible end of it

Hard to find any bright spots but I thought Grant's game was encouraging. Impressed that he went high for the tip. Shows how hard work in the weight room pays dividends. Also impressed that he has such great hands.

Other bright spot was we out rebounded the longer Stanford by 11

Dyson with another great defense, and made some plays on offense

Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

DJ had some moments and had a big block

Other than the great game by Grant, and the adequate game of Dyson, the rest of the 7 man rotation had extremely poor games.

I don't understand why we can't play inside out more when teams collapse on our post, and how we so rarely successfully execute a pick and roll

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I think part of Lars' "hands" problem is that he doesn't anticipate well and seems to be surprised by passes. This is a coachable aspect.

Civil Bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

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I'm still trying to recall a player who's hands improved over time.

Anyone?

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Recently, Okoroh and Solomon come to mind. Okoroh was probably natural development and Solomon was not dramatic improvement. Favorite example is Ryan Jamison, who improved after getting a few dozen "face passes" from Jason Kidd.

I think many big men show improvement in this regard from Fresh-Soph season. Probably simply adjusting to level of competition. Lars is pretty bad - and it appears to be attributable to stronger competition - so he has lots of room for improvement in this regard.

BeachedBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

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I'm still trying to recall a player who's hands improved over time.

Anyone?

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Recently, Okoroh and Solomon come to mind. Okoroh was probably natural development and Solomon was not dramatic improvement. Favorite example is Ryan Jamison, who improved after getting a few dozen "face passes" from Jason Kidd.

I think many big men show improvement in this regard from Fresh-Soph season. Probably simply adjusting to level of competition. Lars is pretty bad - and it appears to be attributable to stronger competition - so he has lots of room for improvement in this regard.

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So many of you expect him to improve. He DOES have a pretty left hook (which he dropped in twice) but his lack of being a true stretch 5 is going to really limit him in the modern game.

And does it really matter? I figure we are in for a LONG 3 year slog till we try try again.

I disagree with much posted here. Cal, even in losing, is showing progress. They are trying to do the right thing. The offense does not come naturally yet, but small steps are being made. As to Lars, he is being put in positions not natural for a big (top of the key). The comment that he seems surprised by the ball is correct; he is thinking way too much. The defensive effort was good. Several glaring defensive breakdowns, but those errors can be addressed and fixed. I thought the game was much closer than the score.

bearchamp said:

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I disagree with much posted here. Cal, even in losing, is showing progress. They are trying to do the right thing. The offense does not come naturally yet, but small steps are being made. As to Lars, he is being put in positions not natural for a big (top of the key). The comment that he seems surprised by the ball is correct; he is thinking way too much. The defensive effort was good. Several glaring defensive breakdowns, but those errors can be addressed and fixed. I thought the game was much closer than the score.

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WOW. Probably the median is someplace between you and me cause what I saw was a team of 10 guys - with TWO that probably would be subs on most other Pac-12 teams.....and I am really surprised you thought it was closer. I knew after the debacle at the end of the half that there was no way we were going to cover - much less make it close. I turned it off, locked the doors and called it a night so I could get up and get some of the tasties at Swami's this AM during dawn patrol.

socaltownie said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

---

I'm still trying to recall a player who's hands improved over time.

Anyone?

---

Recently, Okoroh and Solomon come to mind. Okoroh was probably natural development and Solomon was not dramatic improvement. Favorite example is Ryan Jamison, who improved after getting a few dozen "face passes" from Jason Kidd.

I think many big men show improvement in this regard from Fresh-Soph season. Probably simply adjusting to level of competition. Lars is pretty bad - and it appears to be attributable to stronger competition - so he has lots of room for improvement in this regard.

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So many of you expect him to improve. He DOES have a pretty left hook (which he dropped in twice) but his lack of being a true stretch 5 is going to really limit him in the modern game.

And does it really matter? I figure we are in for a LONG 3 year slog till we try try again.

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I think the expectation for improvement is valid. I mean, most of his negatives are pretty common for a freshman big who is not a 4 star and are generally fixed in year or one or two. Having said that, improvement is directional and does not indicate how MUCH improvement. I've been wrong with speculation many times, but I would say that Lars could be similar to Ryan Jamison by his Junior Year (consider the rest of that roster). He could be better or worse, but he's never going to be Brian Hendricks and is already better than Bak Bak (I know - that's a wide range). And he is NOT a fit for the modern game, but this is not the NBA and there is a enough room in the current D1 landscape that a good staff can make pretty good use of him.

And, you're spot on, it only matters if he is used as a complementary player with lots of better talent around him. That will take improved recruiting (vs what has been seen so far) and player development (Kuany, Thorpe, Brown, Kelly, Gordon and newcomers).

RedlessWardrobe said:

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Trying not to be too negative, but if our hope is for Lars to reach the level of Ryan Jamison, uh, not exactly exciting stuff.

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Exactly. Not exciting, maybe realistic. Seems like a good kid, but he was never expected to be a player to build the program around (Maybe Bradley comes close on this team?). There was some pre-season excitement along the lines of "He may be better than people think", but that hasn't materialized. Along with him starting games at the beginning of the season, that morphed on BI into something that is bigger than it ever was (along the lines of he is our starting 5 for the next 4 years and will carry us to P12 relevance).

He was a late recruiting grab for a new staff. We should be glad to have him and cheer him on, but expecting him to be more than he is seems unfair. Similarly, expecting him to ride the bench, transfer away or disappear in some other form is misguided as well.

59bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Ugly first half and terrible end of it

Hard to find any bright spots but I thought Grant's game was encouraging. Impressed that he went high for the tip. Shows how hard work in the weight room pays dividends. Also impressed that he has such great hands.

Other bright spot was we out rebounded the longer Stanford by 11

Dyson with another great defense, and made some plays on offense

Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

DJ had some moments and had a big block

Other than the great game by Grant, and the adequate game of Dyson, the rest of the 7 man rotation had extremely poor games.

I don't understand why we can't play inside out more when teams collapse on our post, and how we so rarely successfully execute a pick and roll

---

I think part of Lars' "hands" problem is that he doesn't anticipate well and seems to be surprised by passes. This is a coachable aspect.

---

Big men at 18 years of age are slow, and most of them need to get faster and get better at anticipating. It comes with experience. However, one of Lars' problems (and one of Cal's problems) is that there are NO GOOD PASSERS on this team, especially among the point guards. The blame does not fall entirely on the big man when he can't handle a pass. We throw passes sometimes too low, and sometimes where a defender can get a hand on it. The point guard has to give the big enough time to react to the pass, so he should not pass the ball unless he sees the big is paying attention and is wide open for the ball. My guess is we are spending too much time scrimmaging and not enough time running drill after drill on fundamentals, like teammates passing to bigs. It wasn't only Lars having problems holding onto balls. Kelly had 6 turnovers as did as Lars. These guys are expecting a teammate to be in a certain place, or turn a certain way, and he doesn't do what the big expected. Both of them made a pass into thin air, with no teammate there. The results were turnovers.

My impression was that these kids are playing too fast for their skill level. We should not have let Stanford control our pace. Stanford can play fast, and we tried to keep up with their pace. Our shooters seemed desperate, and shot too early, often before they were set. Our bigs all still shoot on their first move. They don't seem to know what a pump fake is. Cal players started the game with some good defensive sequences, but then began to look look nervous and desperate until the end of the game.

SFCityBear said:

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59bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Ugly first half and terrible end of it

Hard to find any bright spots but I thought Grant's game was encouraging. Impressed that he went high for the tip. Shows how hard work in the weight room pays dividends. Also impressed that he has such great hands.

Other bright spot was we out rebounded the longer Stanford by 11

Dyson with another great defense, and made some plays on offense

Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

DJ had some moments and had a big block

Other than the great game by Grant, and the adequate game of Dyson, the rest of the 7 man rotation had extremely poor games.

I don't understand why we can't play inside out more when teams collapse on our post, and how we so rarely successfully execute a pick and roll

---

I think part of Lars' "hands" problem is that he doesn't anticipate well and seems to be surprised by passes. This is a coachable aspect.

---

Big men at 18 years of age are slow, and most of them need to get faster and get better at anticipating. It comes with experience. However, one of Lars' problems (and one of Cal's problems) is that there are NO GOOD PASSERS on this team, especially among the point guards. The blame does not fall entirely on the big man when he can't handle a pass. We throw passes sometimes too low, and sometimes where a defender can get a hand on it. The point guard has to give the big enough time to react to the pass, so he should not pass the ball unless he sees the big is paying attention and is wide open for the ball. My guess is we are spending too much time scrimmaging and not enough time running drill after drill on fundamentals, like teammates passing to bigs. It wasn't only Lars having problems holding onto balls. Kelly had 6 turnovers as did as Lars. These guys are also not used to knowing where their teammates are, and both of them made a pass into thin air, with no teammate there. The results were turnovers.

My impression was that these kids are playing too fast for their skill level. We should not have let Stanford control our pace. Stanford can play fast, and we tried to keep up with their pace. Our shooters seemed desperate, and shot too early, often before they were set. Our bigs all still shoot on their first move. They don't seem to know what a pump fake is. Cal players started the game with some good defensive sequences, but then began to look look nervous and desperate until the end of the game.

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This I agree with. It is PAINFUL to watch our wings try to enter the ball into the post.

Kelly could use a pump fake in his game but honestly it is his lack of size. I think he was giving up 2-3-4 inches most of the night to his defender and that is just really hard when you don't have much of a stretch game.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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Trying not to be too negative, but if our hope is for Lars to reach the level of Ryan Jamison, uh, not exactly exciting stuff.

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I wager 4 bitcoin Lars' career stats best those of Ryan.

Ryan Jamison College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ryan-jamison-1.html

BeachedBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Lars was okay except for the turnovers. Really bad hands, although I've said they will get better with weight training as he loses the ball mostly with contact

---

I'm still trying to recall a player who's hands improved over time.

Anyone?

---

Recently, Okoroh and Solomon come to mind. Okoroh was probably natural development and Solomon was not dramatic improvement. Favorite example is Ryan Jamison, who improved after getting a few dozen "face passes" from Jason Kidd.

I think many big men show improvement in this regard from Fresh-Soph season. Probably simply adjusting to level of competition. Lars is pretty bad - and it appears to be attributable to stronger competition - so he has lots of room for improvement in this regard.

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You guys have a better memory than me because I don't recall bad hands being a big issue for those guys as frosh (including the Thermanator). No doubt they all improved their games though. Most improved bigs go to Solomon Hughs and Rod Benson, IMO.

Quote:

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one of Lars' problems (and one of Cal's problems) is that there are NO GOOD PASSERS on this team, especially among the point guards. The blame does not fall entirely on the big man when he can't handle a pass. We throw passes sometimes too low, and sometimes where a defender can get a hand on it. The point guard has to give the big enough time to react to the pass, so he should not pass the ball unless he sees the big is paying attention and is wide open for the ball.

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Good point, SF. I keep seeing passes come into Lars' knees -- just a really bad pass into a Big.

Big Dog said:

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Quote:

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one of Lars' problems (and one of Cal's problems) is that there are NO GOOD PASSERS on this team, especially among the point guards. The blame does not fall entirely on the big man when he can't handle a pass. We throw passes sometimes too low, and sometimes where a defender can get a hand on it. The point guard has to give the big enough time to react to the pass, so he should not pass the ball unless he sees the big is paying attention and is wide open for the ball.

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Good point, SF. I keep seeing passes come into Lars' knees -- just a really bad pass into a Big.

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We had the same trouble with low passes into Okoroh and Rooks when they played. Many bigs have a natural tendency to bring the ball down after a rebound, where it becomes easy pickings for the shorter, quicker players with quick hands. So bigs are taught never to bring the ball down low after a rebound. Guards should be taught not to pass the ball low to bigs for the same reason.

watching Thurmanator as a freshmen, I had no expectation he would be a good player because he was soooo slow on his feet. Probably the single biggest player evaluation miss I've ever had (I actually always felt guilty I was so off). Actually I think Monty under utilized him a little, although one of Monty's master powers was to optimize shots among his players, so Monty must have felt there were just better shots on the floor from others (including Crabbe!)

But I've said repeatedly that players often lose balls or fail to catch passes because they get bumped, shoved, grabbed, pushed. They aren't usually strong enough early, especially in the lower body, so it impacts them a lot. The physicality at this level is probably not understood by many.

But yes, having good hands is also a skill that some players just have, and others don't. Still, a player can improve to a certain extent with practice. They will probably never have the hands of a wide receiver, but they can improve.

Also, many big men get more coordinated as they are still 'growing into their body'

And I also agree that the game is too fast for him (and ALL of the freshmen including Brown).

Will Lars ever be Brian H or Yao Ming. Yeah, he will never be either, but he can be a solid pac 12 rotation player during his time here (just ask Thurmanator)

On the topic of Robert Thurman, does anyone else remember his "Senior Night"?
His father was bigger and wider than he was!

bearister said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Trying not to be too negative, but if our hope is for Lars to reach the level of Ryan Jamison, uh, not exactly exciting stuff.

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I wager 4 bitcoin Lars' career stats best those of Ryan.

Ryan Jamison College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ryan-jamison-1.html

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This is exactly my point. Setting a bar that you can walk over.

bearister said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Trying not to be too negative, but if our hope is for Lars to reach the level of Ryan Jamison, uh, not exactly exciting stuff.

---

I wager 4 bitcoin Lars' career stats best those of Ryan.

Ryan Jamison College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com


https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ryan-jamison-1.html

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I wager 5 Monopoly bucks that Jamison would have doubled his stats playing on this team instead of the ones he played on

HoopDreams said:

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watching Thurmanator as a freshmen, I had no expectation he would be a good player because he was soooo slow on his feet. Probably the single biggest player evaluation miss I've ever had (I actually always felt guilty I was so off). Actually I think Monty under utilized him a little, although one of Monty's master powers was to optimize shots among his players, so Monty must have felt there were just better shots on the floor from others (including Crabbe!)

But I've said repeatedly that players often lose balls or fail to catch passes because they get bumped, shoved, grabbed, pushed. They aren't usually strong enough early, especially in the lower body, so it impacts them a lot. The physicality at this level is probably not understood by many.

But yes, having good hands is also a skill that some players just have, and others don't. Still, a player can improve to a certain extent with practice. They will probably never have the hands of a wide receiver, but they can improve.

Also, many big men get more coordinated as they are still 'growing into their body'

And I also agree that the game is too fast for him (and ALL of the freshmen including Brown).

Will Lars ever be Brian H or Yao Ming. Yeah, he will never be either, but he can be a solid pac 12 rotation player during his time here (just ask Thurmanator)

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I was wrong about Robert Thurman too, but I missed in the opposite direction. I thought he would turn out much better than everyone thought. It was the summer before his second or third season, I think. I went to a SF ProAm game at Kezar, where he was matched up against Dwight Powell, the Stanford star. Thurman absolutely annihilated Powell, shut him down, outscored him something like 20-6, and out rebounded him by a bundle. I figured Thurman would be outstanding at Cal. He turned out to be a good contributor, a backup center, and improved each year. Tsubamoto took me to task for my positive review, and ridiculed the SF Pro Am games as any kind of an indicator. He was right and I was wrong. I did go to a few Pro Am games after that, mostly to watch Jabari Bird. I could tell, even in the ProAm games, that Jabari didn't play a lick of defense. He was like Lars was in first few games, unable to guard anyone. I stopped going to Pro Am games after that. One thing that is hard to evaluate in a player is heart, desire. Robert Thurman had that in spades. I loved the guy, for how he played. He had heart. So did Jorge. DJ Seeley did not. Neither did Amoke.

Thurman had a great game against unlv in the first round of the ncaas in San Jose.

LateHit said:

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On the topic of Robert Thurman, does anyone else remember his "Senior Night"?
His father was bigger and wider than he was!

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Wasn't his dad like a 6'10 version of actor M.C. Gainey?

bearister said:

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LateHit said:

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On the topic of Robert Thurman, does anyone else remember his "Senior Night"?
His father was bigger and wider than he was!

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Wasn't his dad like a 6'10 version of actor M.C. Gainey?

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Bearister,

You are amazing. You have a photo for every occasion. Please send me a photo of my next girlfriend, so I can decide whether to keep looking for her or skip her entirely.

Before he started bringing in elite recruits Monty had a long series of big men at Stanford who seemed to spend as much time in the weight room as the basketball court. Most did not have "quick" feet, but their footwork was good if limited. They did a few things but did them well. Their main job was playing tough defense, setting screens, boxing out and rebounding and catching a pass and dunking if left open. Thurman filled that role to a T and provided the front court depth we needed to weather the PAC-12 refs (who it later came out, had a bounty to go after us/Monty).

calumnus said:

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Before he started bringing in elite recruits Monty had a long series of big men at Stanford who seemed to spend as much time in the weight room as the basketball court. Most did not have "quick" feet, but their footwork was good if limited. They did a few things but did them well. Their main job was playing tough defense, setting screens, boxing out and rebounding and catching a pass and dunking if left open. Thurman filled that role to a T and provided the front court depth we needed to weather the PAC-12 refs (who it later came out, had a bounty to go after us/Monty).

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Could you elaborate on the last point? I had not heard that about the Pac-12 officials (but does NOT surprise me). That would seem like the scandal of the century if true.