Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

caltagjohnson said:

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Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

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Don't remind me

caltagjohnson said:

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Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

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If we start going through the mistakes made by Cal basketball over the last few years, this could become a very long thread. Hopefully this becomes ancient history with a new coaching staff, but anyone that thinks Fox didn't face a complete rebuild was already not following the program.

wifeisafurd said:

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caltagjohnson said:

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Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

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If we start going through the mistakes made by Cal basketball over the last few years, this could become a very long thread. Hopefully this becomes ancient history with a new coaching staff, but anyone that thinks Fox didn't face a complete rebuild was already not following the program.

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it might be a rebuild, but Bradley is a star, Kelly and Grant are good PFs, and we have some potential in the freshmen class (some of which the prior coach recruited)

That's a solid core with some young talent that will all get better, and have a year under the new coach

we will need to sign some impact transfers (who can hopefully be eligible right away)

OSU loses Tinkle and WSU might lose Ellieby. I think we are in a better spot then at least those two teams

The team is competitive in most games, and when we haven't been, it's been against the top teams or on the road. That's not great, but it's progress

I think year 1 of the rebuild has been a success

Those two guard misses are all on Cuonzo.

philbert said:

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Those two guard misses are all on Cuonzo.

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If you are not a good X and O type of guy why would you be a good talent evaluator unless it is the type of high school player that smacks all evaluators with a 2 x 4 in the face (I.e. Jaylen Brown, Ivan Rabb, etc.)? Spotting diamonds in the rough requires a keen and discerning eye.

caltagjohnson said:

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Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

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Yeah, he had a decent four years there but didn't exactly light the world on fire.

According to espn he did have an offer from Cal, which is my recollection as well.

Would Jonah have come tho since his brother transferred out of Cal ?

Unfortunately, for most Cal BB fans, 6th place in the Pac 12 is like the Sweet 16. There is nothing to indicate we will not be in the bottom 3 teams in the Pac 12. Grant and Kelley have their moments but they would never be starters for teams like OR, AZ or UCLA. Bradley is the only player who would start for one of the better teams.

Our 2 recruits for next year are 3 stars ranked no. 190 and 310 in the country. Neither Lars nor Klonaris have shown they are Pac 12 players. KK can be a decent rotation player. UCLA only has 2 recruits so far but they are a 5 star (no 1 PG) and a 4 star. When we were winning this year, 2 of the contributors were South and Austin, both seniors. Can Fox actually bring in players like UCLA, OR and AZ do? I am skeptical but hope I am wrong.

How short our memories are regarding the Matthews family. Dad wasn't letting anybody else attend Cal. It wasn't a lack of ability to identify talent that kept him from getting an offer. It was the Dad Coach relationship.

Matthews' pts per game rose steadily from 7.0 to 13.4. He was 38% on threes and 74% on FTs this year. Most teams would be happy with that. The fact we pissed off the family was likely an example of Cal arrogance. Like pushing Marcus Lee to KY.

helltopay1 said:

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Dear3cats: The Mathews family was mad at Cal..We had no chance to nab Jonah.

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They HATED Cal by the end it seems.

caltagjohnson said:

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Unfortunately, for most Cal BB fans, 6th place in the Pac 12 is like the Sweet 16. There is nothing to indicate we will not be in the bottom 3 teams in the Pac 12. Grant and Kelley have their moments but they would never be starters for teams like OR, AZ or UCLA. Bradley is the only player who would start for one of the better teams.

Our 2 recruits for next year are 3 stars ranked no. 190 and 310 in the country. Neither Lars nor Klonaris have shown they are Pac 12 players. KK can be a decent rotation player. UCLA only has 2 recruits so far but they are a 5 star (no 1 PG) and a 4 star. When we were winning this year, 2 of the contributors were South and Austin, both seniors. Can Fox actually bring in players like UCLA, OR and AZ do? I am skeptical but hope I am wrong.

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+1. It is the biggest question that Fox has to address - that he can upgrade the talent level. So far jury is DECIDEDLY out.

(honestly we will know in about 8 months with the early signing period in the late summer/fall. If another underwhelming class you have to figure we will be looking at a 4 year Mark Fox run and a reload)

Dear SoCal: We will also be looking for a new AD. You only get one chance to make a quality basketball hire. Of course. Cal is not a basketball school, so, the current AD may skate. Of course, you can argue that thge AD didn't have enough time to make an informed decision..I am sympathetic to that argument. Crucial question: Can Fox limit the player turnover at the end of each season?/We don't know yet..Can he attract quality recruits and transfers/ We don't know yet. If Cal were a basketball school, we would lower the GPA to equal the UCLA GPA. Of course....you get the idea..

helltopay1 said:

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Dear SoCal: We will also be looking for a new AD. You only get one chance to make a quality basketball hire. Of course. Cal is not a basketball school, so, the current AD may skate. Of course, you can argue that thge AD didn't have enough time to make an informed decision..I am sympathetic to that argument. Crucial question: Can Fox limit the player turnover at the end of each season?/We don't know yet..Can he attract quality recruits and transfers/ We don't know yet. If Cal were a basketball school, we would lower the GPA to equal the UCLA GPA. Of course....you get the idea..

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As you know the AD's job really doesn't hinge on Basketball at a school like cal - football is the straw that stirs the drink and as long as Wilcox continues to progress and Knowlton can retain him I figure that all is right with the world.

And on that note - Fox should be a bit nervous watching Wilcox KILL IT in recruiting. Still not at Washington and Oregon levels but that is a hard number to hit. If we can recruit in top 4-5 consistently I have faith in Wilcox's coaching management style to overperform (such as hiring guys that have more experience than him and not letting his ego get in the way).

" Can Fox limit the player turnover at the end of each season?/We don't know yet."

caltagjohnson said:

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Unfortunately, for most Cal BB fans, 6th place in the Pac 12 is like the Sweet 16.

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who are these cal fans?
i've never met one

socaltownie said:

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helltopay1 said:

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Dear SoCal: We will also be looking for a new AD. You only get one chance to make a quality basketball hire. Of course. Cal is not a basketball school, so, the current AD may skate. Of course, you can argue that thge AD didn't have enough time to make an informed decision..I am sympathetic to that argument. Crucial question: Can Fox limit the player turnover at the end of each season?/We don't know yet..Can he attract quality recruits and transfers/ We don't know yet. If Cal were a basketball school, we would lower the GPA to equal the UCLA GPA. Of course....you get the idea..

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As you know the AD's job really doesn't hinge on Basketball at a school like cal - football is the straw that stirs the drink and as long as Wilcox continues to progress and Knowlton can retain him I figure that all is right with the world.

And on that note - Fox should be a bit nervous watching Wilcox KILL IT in recruiting. Still not at Washington and Oregon levels but that is a hard number to hit. If we can recruit in top 4-5 consistently I have faith in Wilcox's coaching management style to overperform (such as hiring guys that have more experience than him and not letting his ego get in the way).

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Wilcox seems on a good path now. He is a first time HC and there was going to be a learning especially on the offensive side. The Baldwin hire turned out to be a mistake and it was compounded by retaining him for three years. He seems to have corrected that with Musgrave. The league is down and the opportunity is there. If we can score some points this year and win more than we lose in league play, the excitement level will be high, even as Wilcox maintains his low key vibe.

Fox is a different story. He has maintained his style of play and demeanor from Georgia which has gotten the most from a roster that lacks a lot of talent. Unfortunately it is a style of play and demeanor that is not attractive to a lot of top recruits. However, it appears he has surrounded himself with good assistants/recruiters. The league is not tough, so if he gets lucky on some recruits, maybe the next international recruits, it is not inconceivable that we can get into the upper half in a few years.

Quote:

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And on that note - Fox should be a bit nervous watching Wilcox KILL IT in recruiting.

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IMHO Wilcox has been able to recruit better players as his teams have looked better on the field. I think more talented kids will want to play for Fox if his teams continue to play above expectations.

stu said:

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Quote:

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And on that note - Fox should be a bit nervous watching Wilcox KILL IT in recruiting.

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IMHO Wilcox has been able to recruit better players as his teams have looked better on the field. I think more talented kids will want to play for Fox if his teams continue to play above expectations.

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It didn't work for Fox at Georgia but the analogy would be Ben Howland at UCLA. I think it is tougher to do that with that type of style in 2020, especially at Cal, but we will see.

calumnus said:

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socaltownie said:

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helltopay1 said:

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Dear SoCal: We will also be looking for a new AD. You only get one chance to make a quality basketball hire. Of course. Cal is not a basketball school, so, the current AD may skate. Of course, you can argue that thge AD didn't have enough time to make an informed decision..I am sympathetic to that argument. Crucial question: Can Fox limit the player turnover at the end of each season?/We don't know yet..Can he attract quality recruits and transfers/ We don't know yet. If Cal were a basketball school, we would lower the GPA to equal the UCLA GPA. Of course....you get the idea..

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As you know the AD's job really doesn't hinge on Basketball at a school like cal - football is the straw that stirs the drink and as long as Wilcox continues to progress and Knowlton can retain him I figure that all is right with the world.

And on that note - Fox should be a bit nervous watching Wilcox KILL IT in recruiting. Still not at Washington and Oregon levels but that is a hard number to hit. If we can recruit in top 4-5 consistently I have faith in Wilcox's coaching management style to overperform (such as hiring guys that have more experience than him and not letting his ego get in the way).

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Wilcox seems on a good path now. He is a first time HC and there was going to be a learning especially on the offensive side. The Baldwin hire turned out to be a mistake and it was compounded by retaining him for three years. He seems to have corrected that with Musgrave. The league is down and the opportunity is there. If we can score some points this year and win more than we lose in league play, the excitement level will be high, even as Wilcox maintains his low key vibe.

Fox is a different story. He has maintained his style of play and demeanor from Georgia which has gotten the most from a roster that lacks a lot of talent. Unfortunately it is a style of play and demeanor that is not attractive to a lot of top recruits. However, it appears he has surrounded himself with good assistants/recruiters. The league is not tough, so if he gets lucky on some recruits, maybe the next international recruits, it is not inconceivable that we can get into the upper half in a few years.

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You and I are simply going to disagree about Baldwin. Every OC looks like **** with a horrible line and everyone looks GREAT when the big boys in the trenches are blowing people off the line and giving a QB time to survey the field.

caltagjohnson said:

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Unfortunately, for most Cal BB fans, 6th place in the Pac 12 is like the Sweet 16. There is nothing to indicate we will not be in the bottom 3 teams in the Pac 12. Grant and Kelley have their moments but they would never be starters for teams like OR, AZ or UCLA. Bradley is the only player who would start for one of the better teams.

Our 2 recruits for next year are 3 stars ranked no. 190 and 310 in the country. Neither Lars nor Klonaris have shown they are Pac 12 players. KK can be a decent rotation player. UCLA only has 2 recruits so far but they are a 5 star (no 1 PG) and a 4 star. When we were winning this year, 2 of the contributors were South and Austin, both seniors. Can Fox actually bring in players like UCLA, OR and AZ do? I am skeptical but hope I am wrong.

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There's 353 Div 1 teams in the NCAA according to kenpom.com and Sagarin. That would translate to about 4500-5000 players. So, each year, there would be 1100-1300 incoming players offered scholarships. If we have players ranked 190 and 310, that would roughly be in the upper 25%-30%. Not great, but not terrible. Yeah, I know that most schools are playing at lower level than Cal aspires to, but from where we stand now, players in the top quarter to third of the available high school seniors is probably in line with what we can expect at this time.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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caltagjohnson said:

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Unfortunately, for most Cal BB fans, 6th place in the Pac 12 is like the Sweet 16. There is nothing to indicate we will not be in the bottom 3 teams in the Pac 12. Grant and Kelley have their moments but they would never be starters for teams like OR, AZ or UCLA. Bradley is the only player who would start for one of the better teams.

Our 2 recruits for next year are 3 stars ranked no. 190 and 310 in the country. Neither Lars nor Klonaris have shown they are Pac 12 players. KK can be a decent rotation player. UCLA only has 2 recruits so far but they are a 5 star (no 1 PG) and a 4 star. When we were winning this year, 2 of the contributors were South and Austin, both seniors. Can Fox actually bring in players like UCLA, OR and AZ do? I am skeptical but hope I am wrong.

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There's 353 Div 1 teams in the NCAA according to kenpom.com and Sagarin. That would translate to about 4500-5000 players. So, each year, there would be 1100-1300 incoming players offered scholarships. If we have players ranked 190 and 310, that would roughly be in the upper 25%-30%. Not great, but not terrible. Yeah, I know that most schools are playing at lower level than Cal aspires to, but from where we stand now, players in the top quarter to third of the available high school seniors is probably in line with what we can expect at this time.

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Gosh we have low expectations. The problem is that we play in a P5. If you think 190 and 310 would be acceptable at Oregon, UCLA, Washington, Arizona and probably Furd and USC you are kidding yourself. That is the problem - not that those kids are probably not great young men and fine baskeball players in the WCC. It is that they are going against a LOT of kids who will, at the very least, get a look see by NBA scouts to see if they have game.

As you remember his father was uSF Coach Phil Mathews, and his brother Jordan Mathews was a highly ranked Coach Mike Montgomery 2013 recruit.

After Coach Monte left the entire culture of Cal basketball changed with Coach "3 years and show me the $" Martin and the ilk of an insecure Coach Wyking "Pu Wave gimme' the $" Jones and his roll the ball out there and let them play style.

Coach Mathews was a Coach Montgomery man; however, the non-coaching that followed after Monte left was the real issue that led to the exodus to thrive with Coach Mark Few at ZagU and the reason Jonah Mathews chose $uSC.

Coach Martin is an incomplete coach. He won't stay long as HC anywhere. uMO might be stuck in mediocrity for another 6 years. . . or maybe it's $ to move on to uPepp.

Coach Jones is not a HC. He will find another assistant position somewhere when he needs it. . . maybe uTenne.

caltagjohnson said:

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Did you watch the UCLA-USC game yesterday? UCLA needed to win to tie OR for first place. The game came down to the last shot with UCLA having a 1 pt lead. Guess who took the shot? Jonah drained an NBA+ three to win the game. Earlier he set the USC career record for made threes.

This is the same guy who never got a Cal offer even though his brother was playing for Cal. Our backcourt could have been Matthews and Justin Ford of St Marys. He also was not good enough to get a Cal offer. Is it any wonder we fight to stay out of last place? Player evaluation is part of recruiting.

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No one ever confused Cuonzo with a good player evaluator. He could get the elite guys to come, but he could never build a roster.

if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

HoopDreams said:

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if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

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Interesting speculation.

However, whether Monty would have taken the team to the Sweet Sixteen ?

Certainly the odds would have been far higher under Monty...

HoopDreams said:

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if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

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But there is no way Monty has that team.

In 16 trips to the NCAA tournament, Monty made it past the first weekend 3 times. Never at Cal. The path to that one Stanford Final Four was paved with a lot of upsets ahead of them.

calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

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But there is no way Monty has that team.

In 16 trips to the NCAA tournament, Monty made it past the first weekend 3 times. Never at Cal. The path to that one Stanford Final Four was paved with a lot of upsets ahead of them.

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+1. Monty's teams were NOT designed to do well in the Tournament. Slow and plodding ;-) He relied upon drawing contact and fouls, something that GREATLY diminishes in the tournament (and as you get away from Pac12 refs). And watch this week - as things get deeper people play "straight up". Not a ton of scouting (don't have time) and not a lot of time to scheme (really don't have time to get your players ready). That sort of basketball underscores individual talent.

socaltownie said:

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calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

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But there is no way Monty has that team.

In 16 trips to the NCAA tournament, Monty made it past the first weekend 3 times. Never at Cal. The path to that one Stanford Final Four was paved with a lot of upsets ahead of them.

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+1. Monty's teams were NOT designed to do well in the Tournament. Slow and plodding ;-) He relied upon drawing contact and fouls, something that GREATLY diminishes in the tournament (and as you get away from Pac12 refs). And watch this week - as things get deeper people play "straight up". Not a ton of scouting (don't have time) and not a lot of time to scheme (really don't have time to get your players ready). That sort of basketball underscores individual talent.

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To pile on . . . officiating changes (both rules and emphasis) that began at the end of Monty's Cal tenure exacerbated his challenges in this regard (I think the little circle under the basket was his retirement call). To his credit, he adjusted quickly and pretty effectively, but you could tell it was not as much his style. This impacted both recruiting and his ability to get players to adhere to his system, IMHO.

socaltownie said:

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calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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if Jordan's issue was how he was used in our offense, I can see that

both bird and jordan were great three point shooters, yet our offense wasn't designed for them when Jaylen was here

a better coach would have realized they had a complete starting five

Yeah, four future NBA players, plus 3 point specialist Mathews and a solid 6th man in PG Singer (although our depth was questionable)

If Monty had that team, we would have made the Sweet Sixteen, and then... who knows?

---

But there is no way Monty has that team.

In 16 trips to the NCAA tournament, Monty made it past the first weekend 3 times. Never at Cal. The path to that one Stanford Final Four was paved with a lot of upsets ahead of them.

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+1. Monty's teams were NOT designed to do well in the Tournament. Slow and plodding ;-) He relied upon drawing contact and fouls, something that GREATLY diminishes in the tournament (and as you get away from Pac12 refs). And watch this week - as things get deeper people play "straight up". Not a ton of scouting (don't have time) and not a lot of time to scheme (really don't have time to get your players ready). That sort of basketball underscores individual talent.

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True. Monty coached up the talent he had (and that was the only real criticism of him was his lack of energy in recruiting) and that reaches the ceiling at most at round 2 of the NCAAs.

I would have love to seen how Monty could have handled the dream team with Ivan and Jaylen assuming Matthews had stayed. But really it was pretty apparent to me the limitation was on Bird and Matthews. When we faced lesser talent they rained 3s. When we faced more elite talent the shooting %s just fell off and we struggled.

That season with Jaylen we were so loaded, sigh.

caltagjohnson said:

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Matthews' pts per game rose steadily from 7.0 to 13.4. He was 38% on threes and 74% on FTs this year. Most teams would be happy with that. The fact we pissed off the family was likely an example of Cal arrogance. Like pushing Marcus Lee to KY.

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Who is "we?"