Ohio State just got a commitment from the best grad transfer this year (from Harvard). Seth Towns is a 6'-7" Forward/Wing with two years of eligibility remaining and will be eligible for 2020-21 and 2021-2022 seasons (exactly the same as Justice Sueing).

How good is this Seth Towns guy? He was highly coveted by Duke, Virginia, Kansas, Michigan, Syracuse and Maryland. Enough said. Yes, he has been out for the last two seasons with an injury, but, he was the Ivy League Player of the Year in 2017-2018 (and before you say it is only Ivy League, remember what happened the last two times we played an Ivy League school).

Back when Sueing was transferring last year, people here said that he was making a mistake transferring from Cal to Ohio State because he will be recruited over. Well, it just happened.

Go Bears!

Towns is a guy that would've been nice here.

Too bad if Sueing's minutes take a hit. Is there no Justice?!?

Doubt Sueing would've/will ever start for Ohio State. Still surprised they took him in the first place.

First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

Sueing is a good player. Wish he was still here

I don't know much about Ohio State, besides that they have a top team.

He went from leader of a team to role player, but he still can have an important role (starter? Sixth man?rotation player?) on a a top team that has a chance to reach the final four

People have to make choices that they think are best for them

tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

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He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

HoopDreams said:

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Sueing is a good player. Wish he was still here

I don't know much about Ohio State, besides that they have a top team.

He went from leader of a team to role player, but he still can have an important role (starter? Sixth man?rotation player?) on a a top team that has a chance to reach the final four

People have to make choices that they think are best for them

---

From the outside looking in, Sueing was the best scorer on a poor team, but never seemed like the leader of the team. I'm not sure anyone was, but based on his actions on the court and bench - did not seem like the leader.

calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

---

You make some assumptions from a short video clip that may or may not be correct. For all we know Fox didn't think Sueing would buy-in and didn't try to keep him. Or perhaps Seuing was getting advice from others, or perhaps his priorities didn't center around guaranteed playing time. We just don't know.

Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

---

You make some assumptions from a short video clip that may or may not be correct. For all we know Fox didn't think Sueing would buy-in and didn't try to keep him. Or perhaps Seuing was getting advice from others, or perhaps his priorities didn't center around guaranteed playing time. We just don't know.

---

One big thing with Sueing is that he came from a program that won 90% of the time, to a losing program, then to a coach change, with little support. My sense is that was not too attractive to him. Now, he is faced with being on a winning program but having limited PT

it may be early to assume he's going to have limited playing time. sounds like OSU is light in the front court, and Sueing can play the 3 and the 4 (in a pinch)

from espn:

13. Ohio State Buckeyes

Which Ohio State will show up next season? The one that started 11-1 and sat near the top of the rankings? Or the one that lost six of seven to drop to 2-6 in the Big Ten -- or the one that won nine of its last 12? I think it's something more like the third option, even though there are some personnel issues entering the offseason. One of those was addressed over the weekend, when Harvard graduate transfer Seth Towns -- our No. 1 transfer -- picked the hometown Buckeyes over Duke. Towns will add perimeter shooting, while California transfer Justice Sueing brings scoring punch after sitting out last season. C.J. Walker, Duane Washington and Luther Muhammad are all back in the backcourt. What happens up front? If Kaleb Wesson turns pro, coach Chris Holtmann could be short on interior options. If Wesson returns, Ohio State will rise several spots in the rankings.

calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

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One guy I know who wasn't happy is Darius McNeil, not because he transferred but he expected to be cleared to play. Every IG post all season mentioned something about not being cleared. Well, it's all over. Good luck to him and the other two former Cal recruits at SMU.

Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

---

You make some assumptions from a short video clip that may or may not be correct. For all we know Fox didn't think Sueing would buy-in and didn't try to keep him. Or perhaps Seuing was getting advice from others, or perhaps his priorities didn't center around guaranteed playing time. We just don't know.

---

True it is an assumption, but your first alternative, that Fox didn't want our top scorer and top academic player back and ran him off intentionally is absurd. If it was "mutual" because there was "no buy-in" that is essentially the same.

My point is 1) Fox should have wanted Sueing to stay and should have tried to convince him to stay (recruit him). I would hate to think he did anything but that.
2) Sueing didn't stay, so Fox was not successful at #1.
3) Sueing should have stayed, for Sueing.

calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

---

You make some assumptions from a short video clip that may or may not be correct. For all we know Fox didn't think Sueing would buy-in and didn't try to keep him. Or perhaps Seuing was getting advice from others, or perhaps his priorities didn't center around guaranteed playing time. We just don't know.

---

True it is an assumption, but your first alternative, that Fox didn't want our top scorer and top academic player back and ran him off intentionally is absurd. If it was "mutual" because there was "no buy-in" that is essentially the same.

My point is 1) Fox should have wanted Sueing to stay and should have tried to convince him to stay (recruit him). I would hate to think he did anything but that.
2) Sueing didn't stay, so Fox was not successful at #1.
3) Sueing should have stayed, for Sueing.

---

Sorry, I missed the part where I suggested Fox ran him off.

I understood your point(s). Mine are 1) If it's the case, Fox wouldn't be the first successful new coach to let players that didn't want to buy-in walk away. See LK at Utah.
2) True, if Fox wanted to keep him.
3) Sueing should have stayed, for us. We don't know what is important to him. But let me ask you, if Fox should have thought that Sueing was so good and irreplaceable that it would have been absurd for him to not have done everything to keep him, regardless if Seuing was willing to buy-in or not, then what makes you so sure he won't be good enough to have a decent couple of years at OSU?

Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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Civil Bear said:

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calumnus said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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First thing I thought of was Sueng being recruited over. The grass isn't always greener.

---

He definitely was an obvious missing piece.

I thought Fox did a really poor job "recruiting" the returning players, especially a guy like Sueing who was our top scorer AND Pac-12 All Academic, but sometimes you need to see past a professor or boss who turns you off or disrespects you and focus on whether the class, school or job is right for you. I know I didn't handle those things much better at that age. If I didn't like a teacher or professor I didn't work hard in their class, hah, showed them! It does seem that the guys that stayed are happy they did.

---

You make some assumptions from a short video clip that may or may not be correct. For all we know Fox didn't think Sueing would buy-in and didn't try to keep him. Or perhaps Seuing was getting advice from others, or perhaps his priorities didn't center around guaranteed playing time. We just don't know.

---

True it is an assumption, but your first alternative, that Fox didn't want our top scorer and top academic player back and ran him off intentionally is absurd. If it was "mutual" because there was "no buy-in" that is essentially the same.

My point is 1) Fox should have wanted Sueing to stay and should have tried to convince him to stay (recruit him). I would hate to think he did anything but that.
2) Sueing didn't stay, so Fox was not successful at #1.
3) Sueing should have stayed, for Sueing.

---

Sorry, I missed the part where I suggested Fox ran him off.

I understood your point(s). Mine are 1) If it's the case, Fox wouldn't be the first successful new coach to let players that didn't want to buy-in walk away. See LK at Utah.
2) True, if Fox wanted to keep him.
3) Sueing should have stayed, for us. We don't know what is important to him. But let me ask you, if Fox should have thought that Sueing was so good and irreplaceable that it would have been absurd for him to not have done everything to keep him, regardless if Seuing was willing to buy-in or not, then what makes you so sure he won't be good enough to have a decent couple of years at OSU?

---

Fox's first job in this day of the transfer portal was to re-recruit the players. You suggested it might have been Fox's decision not to recruit Sueing (not try to convince him to stay). So, yes, that would be lack of an affirmative instead of a negative ("run off") but when it comes to recruiting, there is not too much difference.

Sueing was inarguably one of Cal's two best players if not our best. He was our most recognized/featured player. He was All Academic as a student athlete at Cal a great academic school. Other than the losing he was in a perfect spot. He is from Hawaii so Ohio is not closer to home.

I would be shocked if Fox did not want Sueing to stay. If Fox "sensed" he did not have "buy-in" then it was his job to establish rapport, find out what Sueings goals are, explain why Cal was the best place for him and how he as a coach planned to help him achieve those goals. There are two choices: 1) Fox did not do that (maybe "My way or the highway") or 2) Fox tried to that and failed to convince him Cal was the right place and he was the right coach.

My point was In either case, If Cal was right for Sueing, but there was something he needed, he might have been proactive and worked with Fox even if they did not hit it off right away. However, I was not good at that at his age.

And yes, this is all speculation and contemplation, it could be something completely different (a girlfriend at OSU, he grew up a Buckeye fan, he got turned down by Haas but will get into OSU business school automatically....), so feel free to ignore everything I wrote.

We will see how things turn out for him at Ohio State.

no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

lol

I'm not saying that's the way it went down, but is it Fox's task-master old-school approach or the way he handled Austin and Kelly in the OCC season that make you certain he would rather play players that haven't bought in than start from scratch? Keep in mind this approach is not uncommon with many newly hired coaches in various sports.

HoopDreams said:

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no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

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We would've been a bubble team if they stayed, assuming the defensive improvements we've seen under Fox. Those 3 could flat out shoot and/or score.

McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

concernedparent said:

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HoopDreams said:

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no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

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We would've been a bubble team if they stayed, assuming the defensive improvements we've seen under Fox. Those 3 could flat out shoot and/or score.

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I can't disagree with your predictions, but with all due respect, why do you say the three could "flat out shoot and/or score"? Compared to whom? They were mostly average shooters, nothing special, for me at least. If you said Matt Bradley could flat out shoot or score, then I'm with you on that. McNeill shot threes about average, but in the PAC12, he shot them at 31%, below average. He shot twos in conference at 38%, which is well below the modern national average of about 48%. He was just an average free throw shooter.

Sueing shot twos above average, with a variety of shots, at 51%. However, he was a poor three point shooter at 31% overall and 29% in the PAC12 (27% in 2019), well below the national average of about 35%. He scored 17 points a game, and that was due to him taking more shots than anyone else on the team. Which is OK, because Cal didn't have many options. I did not like him taking so many threes, or taking any threes at all, for that matter. He was a very good rebounder for his size, and a decent defender. McNeill also took too many shots for someone who was not a great shooter, in my opinion. That was understandable in his first year, especially with the great start he had, only to cool off in the conference season. But in his second year, he took twice as many threes as Matt Bradley, who was a much better 3-point shot, at 47%. That was just poor coaching, IMO.

Vanover shot twos at 53%, which is above average, or maybe average for a tall man. He shot threes at 36%, which is slightly above average, or likely well above average for a tall man. He did not have much bulk or strength to play inside at both ends, so unless that improved, along with his defense, he may not have been able to keep up the level of play that he showed his last few games.

Would any of these players have helped Cal last season? Of course they would. We had no small forward, like Sueing, so Bradley had to play out of position. And we had no one to back up Anticevich at PF, and Sueing could do that as well. McNeill proved to be a little better than South. Cal was thin at center, so Vanover would have helped. I'm sorry they didn't stay, but in the long run, I think we can find better shooters than these three. They didn't meet my expectations for what we need at their positions.

BearDown2o15 said:

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McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

---

everything you said is possible, but you sound like you've got in inside info

is that right?

HoopDreams said:

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BearDown2o15 said:

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McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

---

everything you said is possible, but you sound like you've got in inside info

is that right?

---

I've been told exactly what HD says by a staff member. Sueing was "out" regardless of who got hired. He was pressed hard to stay, as he was going to be featured as a junior. Why leave and sit out a year?

Fox tried to convince him but it was a lost cause. He was gone before Fox was hired.

Alkiadt said:

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HoopDreams said:

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BearDown2o15 said:

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McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

---

everything you said is possible, but you sound like you've got in inside info

is that right?

---

I've been told exactly what HD says by a staff member. Sueing was "out" regardless of who got hired. He was pressed hard to stay, as he was going to be featured as a junior. Why leave and sit out a year?

Fox tried to convince him but it was a lost cause. He was gone before Fox was hired.

---

I remember the really bad Fox team meeting. Really bad idea by media relations. At the very least, a poor video editing job.

Everyone saw Sueing's poor body language, although he showed poor body language all season, so i was hoping it was just how he carries himself. But it also looked like he exited the room as fast as he could, and was a negative indicator to me.

Alkiadt said:

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HoopDreams said:

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BearDown2o15 said:

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McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

---

everything you said is possible, but you sound like you've got in inside info

is that right?

---

I've been told exactly what HD says by a staff member. Sueing was "out" regardless of who got hired. He was pressed hard to stay, as he was going to be featured as a junior. Why leave and sit out a year?

Fox tried to convince him but it was a lost cause. He was gone before Fox was hired.

---

So why didn't he enter the Transfer Portal sooner? Immediately after the season? Why try to force out Wyking if he was leaving anyway? Why wait until after Fox was hired and after he met with Fox to enter the Transfer Portal?

calumnus said:

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Alkiadt said:

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HoopDreams said:

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BearDown2o15 said:

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McNeil was transferring regardless of the coach (his decision was made BEFORE the season was over).

Sueing was a driving force in the "we won't play for Wyking" group and chose to transfer before giving Fox a chance. he was going to leave regardless.

I believe Darius will be successful at SMU, but I don't think Justice will have the same success in the B1G as he had at Cal. The B1G is physical and Justice is not a physical player. Plus he won't be the number 1 scoring option there

---

everything you said is possible, but you sound like you've got in inside info

is that right?

---

I've been told exactly what HD says by a staff member. Sueing was "out" regardless of who got hired. He was pressed hard to stay, as he was going to be featured as a junior. Why leave and sit out a year?

Fox tried to convince him but it was a lost cause. He was gone before Fox was hired.

---

So why didn't he enter the Transfer Portal sooner? Immediately after the season? Why try to force out Wyking if he was leaving anyway? Why wait until after Fox was hired and after he met with Fox to enter the Transfer Portal?

---

There was some family conflict around stay/go that needed to be resolved.

It would have been interesting if Sueing had stayed. He clearly has talent, but I often got turned off by his lack of hustle, especially when the team fell behind. Would he have bought in to Fox's demand for maximum effort all of the time, or would he have sulked? If he had stayed and bought in, I think he would have been an important part of the team, as I think Fox would have coached and used him smartly. I assume OSU will also demand effort from their players, so we may get to see how he adjusts to a more disciplined environment than he got under Wyking.

SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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HoopDreams said:

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no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

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We would've been a bubble team if they stayed, assuming the defensive improvements we've seen under Fox. Those 3 could flat out shoot and/or score.

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I can't disagree with your predictions, but with all due respect, why do you say the three could "flat out shoot and/or score"? Compared to whom? They were mostly average shooters, nothing special, for me at least. If you said Matt Bradley could flat out shoot or score, then I'm with you on that. McNeill shot threes about average, but in the PAC12, he shot them at 31%, below average. He shot twos in conference at 38%, which is well below the modern national average of about 48%. He was just an average free throw shooter.

Sueing shot twos above average, with a variety of shots, at 51%. However, he was a poor three point shooter at 31% overall and 29% in the PAC12 (27% in 2019), well below the national average of about 35%. He scored 17 points a game, and that was due to him taking more shots than anyone else on the team. Which is OK, because Cal didn't have many options. I did not like him taking so many threes, or taking any threes at all, for that matter. He was a very good rebounder for his size, and a decent defender. McNeill also took too many shots for someone who was not a great shooter, in my opinion. That was understandable in his first year, especially with the great start he had, only to cool off in the conference season. But in his second year, he took twice as many threes as Matt Bradley, who was a much better 3-point shot, at 47%. That was just poor coaching, IMO.

Vanover shot twos at 53%, which is above average, or maybe average for a tall man. He shot threes at 36%, which is slightly above average, or likely well above average for a tall man. He did not have much bulk or strength to play inside at both ends, so unless that improved, along with his defense, he may not have been able to keep up the level of play that he showed his last few games.

Would any of these players have helped Cal last season? Of course they would. We had no small forward, like Sueing, so Bradley had to play out of position. And we had no one to back up Anticevich at PF, and Sueing could do that as well. McNeill proved to be a little better than South. Cal was thin at center, so Vanover would have helped. I'm sorry they didn't stay, but in the long run, I think we can find better shooters than these three. They didn't meet my expectations for what we need at their positions.

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35% on high volume when you're one of the few shooting threats is pretty good. McNeil was streaky and could really light it up, and then go cold for a few games (usually at the end of the season, fatigue?). So yes, he can shoot.

Justice scored 17 ppg on reasonable efficiency with a totally incompetent coach and a barely discernible offensive system. So yes, he can score.

Vanover is a center shooting the national average from 3. I didn't say anything about his defense. So yes, he can shoot.

concernedparent said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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HoopDreams said:

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no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

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We would've been a bubble team if they stayed, assuming the defensive improvements we've seen under Fox. Those 3 could flat out shoot and/or score.

---

I can't disagree with your predictions, but with all due respect, why do you say the three could "flat out shoot and/or score"? Compared to whom? They were mostly average shooters, nothing special, for me at least. If you said Matt Bradley could flat out shoot or score, then I'm with you on that. McNeill shot threes about average, but in the PAC12, he shot them at 31%, below average. He shot twos in conference at 38%, which is well below the modern national average of about 48%. He was just an average free throw shooter.

Sueing shot twos above average, with a variety of shots, at 51%. However, he was a poor three point shooter at 31% overall and 29% in the PAC12 (27% in 2019), well below the national average of about 35%. He scored 17 points a game, and that was due to him taking more shots than anyone else on the team. Which is OK, because Cal didn't have many options. I did not like him taking so many threes, or taking any threes at all, for that matter. He was a very good rebounder for his size, and a decent defender. McNeill also took too many shots for someone who was not a great shooter, in my opinion. That was understandable in his first year, especially with the great start he had, only to cool off in the conference season. But in his second year, he took twice as many threes as Matt Bradley, who was a much better 3-point shot, at 47%. That was just poor coaching, IMO.

Vanover shot twos at 53%, which is above average, or maybe average for a tall man. He shot threes at 36%, which is slightly above average, or likely well above average for a tall man. He did not have much bulk or strength to play inside at both ends, so unless that improved, along with his defense, he may not have been able to keep up the level of play that he showed his last few games.

Would any of these players have helped Cal last season? Of course they would. We had no small forward, like Sueing, so Bradley had to play out of position. And we had no one to back up Anticevich at PF, and Sueing could do that as well. McNeill proved to be a little better than South. Cal was thin at center, so Vanover would have helped. I'm sorry they didn't stay, but in the long run, I think we can find better shooters than these three. They didn't meet my expectations for what we need at their positions.

---

35% on high volume when you're one of the few shooting threats is pretty good. McNeil was streaky and could really light it up, and then go cold for a few games (usually at the end of the season, fatigue?). So yes, he can shoot.

Justice scored 17 ppg on reasonable efficiency with a totally incompetent coach and a barely discernible offensive system. So yes, he can score.

Vanover is a center shooting the national average from 3. I didn't say anything about his defense. So yes, he can shoot.

---

Oh dear. I'm not saying these three gems could not shoot. Of course they can shoot. I was responding to you saying they could all "flat out shoot/score". I don't know which playground you grew up on, but on mine, when we said a player could "flat out" do something like shoot, rebound, pass, dribble, dunk, run, jump, etc,, "flat out" meant the player could do that something really well. "Flat out" is a superlative word, isn't it? These three guys are average shooters at best. Suing was an above average scorer on two point shots, because he shot an above average number of shots at an average percentage. He was an average scorer on 3-point shots, because he shot an above average number of threes at a below average percentage.

If you still say these three could flat out shoot, well, maybe I have higher expectations for the players who start on my Cal team. Bradley as a freshmen could flat out shoot. But I have to go back to Mathews, Grant Mullins, and maybe Bird as a junior to find a good shooter at Cal. But they did not compare to Randle and Theo, who could flat out shoot, in my way of thinking.

And to flat out score, well, I think the guy should average 20 points. Randle and Crabbe come close, but the last guy to average 20 at Cal was Ryan Anderson, I think. Before that it was Leon Powe. Those guys could flat out score. Even though Ty Wallace and Jaylen Brown were not good three point shooters, they still were good scorers. If they could have just been average 3 three point shooters they could have averaged 20 points.

SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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SFCityBear said:

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concernedparent said:

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HoopDreams said:

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no chance Fox didn't try to keep all 3 of the transfer out

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We would've been a bubble team if they stayed, assuming the defensive improvements we've seen under Fox. Those 3 could flat out shoot and/or score.

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I can't disagree with your predictions, but with all due respect, why do you say the three could "flat out shoot and/or score"? Compared to whom? They were mostly average shooters, nothing special, for me at least. If you said Matt Bradley could flat out shoot or score, then I'm with you on that. McNeill shot threes about average, but in the PAC12, he shot them at 31%, below average. He shot twos in conference at 38%, which is well below the modern national average of about 48%. He was just an average free throw shooter.

Sueing shot twos above average, with a variety of shots, at 51%. However, he was a poor three point shooter at 31% overall and 29% in the PAC12 (27% in 2019), well below the national average of about 35%. He scored 17 points a game, and that was due to him taking more shots than anyone else on the team. Which is OK, because Cal didn't have many options. I did not like him taking so many threes, or taking any threes at all, for that matter. He was a very good rebounder for his size, and a decent defender. McNeill also took too many shots for someone who was not a great shooter, in my opinion. That was understandable in his first year, especially with the great start he had, only to cool off in the conference season. But in his second year, he took twice as many threes as Matt Bradley, who was a much better 3-point shot, at 47%. That was just poor coaching, IMO.

Vanover shot twos at 53%, which is above average, or maybe average for a tall man. He shot threes at 36%, which is slightly above average, or likely well above average for a tall man. He did not have much bulk or strength to play inside at both ends, so unless that improved, along with his defense, he may not have been able to keep up the level of play that he showed his last few games.

Would any of these players have helped Cal last season? Of course they would. We had no small forward, like Sueing, so Bradley had to play out of position. And we had no one to back up Anticevich at PF, and Sueing could do that as well. McNeill proved to be a little better than South. Cal was thin at center, so Vanover would have helped. I'm sorry they didn't stay, but in the long run, I think we can find better shooters than these three. They didn't meet my expectations for what we need at their positions.

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35% on high volume when you're one of the few shooting threats is pretty good. McNeil was streaky and could really light it up, and then go cold for a few games (usually at the end of the season, fatigue?). So yes, he can shoot.

Justice scored 17 ppg on reasonable efficiency with a totally incompetent coach and a barely discernible offensive system. So yes, he can score.

Vanover is a center shooting the national average from 3. I didn't say anything about his defense. So yes, he can shoot.

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Oh dear. I'm not saying these three gems could not shoot. Of course they can shoot. I was responding to you saying they could all "flat out shoot/score". I don't know which playground you grew up on, but on mine, when we said a player could "flat out" do something like shoot, rebound, pass, dribble, dunk, run, jump, etc,, "flat out" meant the player could do that something really well. "Flat out" is a superlative word, isn't it? These three guys are average shooters at best. Suing was an above average scorer on two point shots, because he shot an above average number of shots at an average percentage. He was an average scorer on 3-point shots, because he shot an above average number of threes at a below average percentage.

If you still say these three could flat out shoot, well, maybe I have higher expectations for the players who start on my Cal team. Bradley as a freshmen could flat out shoot. But I have to go back to Mathews, Grant Mullins, and maybe Bird as a junior to find a good shooter at Cal. But they did not compare to Randle and Theo, who could flat out shoot, in my way of thinking.

And to flat out score, well, I think the guy should average 20 points. Randle and Crabbe come close, but the last guy to average 20 at Cal was Ryan Anderson, I think. Before that it was Leon Powe. Those guys could flat out score. Even though Ty Wallace and Jaylen Brown were not good three point shooters, they still were good scorers. If they could have just been average 3 three point shooters they could have averaged 20 points.

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Ok, they can kinda shoot/score.