https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/michael-jordan-the-last-dance-documentary-watch-10-part-series-live-stream-tv-dates-uncensored-version

spin > One of the most highly anticipated NBA documentaries in recent memory tips off Sunday night

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'The Last Dance' Schedule

• Sunday, April 19, 9 p.m. ET -- Episodes 1 and 2
• Sunday, April 26, 9 p.m. ET -- Episodes 3 and 4
• Sunday, May 3, 9 p.m. ET -- Episodes 5 and 6
• Sunday, May 10, 9 p.m. ET -- Episodes 7 and 8
• Sunday, May 17, 9 p.m. ET -- Episodes 9 and 10

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TV and Live Stream

• TV: ESPN (censored version will air simultaneously on ESPN2)
• Live stream (U.S.): WatchESPN.com, ESPN app
• Live stream (International): Netflix (episodes made available five hours after broadcast time)

Uncensored version
The documentary that runs on ESPN will feature "strong adult language," while an alternate, edited version of each episode will run simultaneously on ESPN2.

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I think MJ is a pr@ick squared, but I'm DVRing it.

sandiegobears said:

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I've never understood this. I have other friends with the same opinion. I just find him to be the single-most driven "winner" of all time. And that seems to piss some people off, for some reason. He is a little testy at times, but the great ones are. It often seems as if the only fans are the ones from the hometown of the superstar. Others off the top of my head include Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, and yes, I know many people who don't like Aaron Rodgers.

Care to explain why you don't like the single greatest basketball player of all time? I'm actually really curious.

Btw, I really enjoyed the first two episodes.

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There is "testy" and there is being an ***hole.

The Root on MJ

That said, I enjoyed the first two episodes as well, always enjoyed watching him play, and admire what he accomplished. Personally, I'm mad at myself for actually wearing the Air Jordans I got in the mid 80s. What was I thinking?

sandiegobears said:

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I've never understood this. I have other friends with the same opinion. I just find him to be the single-most driven "winner" of all time. And that seems to piss some people off, for some reason. He is a little testy at times, but the great ones are. It often seems as if the only fans are the ones from the hometown of the superstar. Others off the top of my head include Roger Clemens, Alex Rodriguez, and yes, I know many people who don't like Aaron Rodgers.

Care to explain why you don't like the single greatest basketball player of all time? I'm actually really curious.

Btw, I really enjoyed the first two episodes.

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Well, I don't know him personally, it is only what I have read. I always liked Bill Cartwright. I saw him drop 50+ points on O'Dowd at the Oakland Arena when he was a senior at Elk Grove High (I was a Senior at Cal). I watched him play at USF. I heard MJ was miserable to him and told the team to never pass him the ball. I had heard some of the other stories catalogued in the articles below. I read he used to wager $1000 a hole playing golf (that ain't friendly). He was an a@sshole to his wife. He slugged Steve Kerr, who I have immense respect for.
I like men like Curry and Klay becase I believe them to be nice people.

None of this has anything to do with him being one of the greatest players of all time but you asked me why I thought poorly of him.

Top 10 Stories of Michael Jordan Being the Greatest Jerk of All Time


https://deadendsports.com/top-10-stories-of-michael-jordan-being-the-greatest-jerk-of-all-time-6ce50102f83b

PLAYERS WHO COULDN'T STAND MICHAEL JORDAN

https://www.grunge.com/140740/players-who-couldnt-stand-michael-jordan/

I loved the first 2 episodes - I'm definitely watching the next 8. Though my interest might be partially due to not having much other new content to watch these days.

I'll take a stab at the a-hole subject. I am proposing that to truly be one of the all time greats - I mean like Top 5 athletes ever level - you have to have an assassin type of personality and play. You have to want to rip the heart out of your opponent and stomp out their hope and confidence every time you compete on and off the court.

Example A - Michael Jordan. Checks all of the above boxes.

Example B - Tiger Woods. Tiger is arguably as big and successful a figure as Michael Jordan. If you don't think Tiger was as ruthless as Michael, read the Tiger Woods book by Armen Keteyian and Jeff Benedict (awesome book BTW). Tiger was even brutal and ruthless to long time people in his supposed inner circle, let alone his opponents.

So I'm arguing that to be an All Time Great, you need to have that bloodthirsty viciousness. Most people don't have this, and so we see a lot of great athletes, but they are a step below the All Timers.

Feel free to argue and discuss.

75bear said:

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I loved the first 2 episodes - I'm definitely watching the next 8. Though my interest might be partially due to not having much other new content to watch these days.

I'll take a stab at the a-hole subject. I am proposing that to truly be one of the all time greats - I mean like Top 5 athletes ever level - you have to have an assassin type of personality play. You have to want to rip the heart out of your opponent and stomp out their hope and confidence every time you compete on and off the court.

Example A - Michael Jordan. Checks all of the above boxes.

Example B - Tiger Woods. Tiger is arguably as big and successful a figure as Michael Jordan. If you don't think Tiger was as ruthless as Michael, read the Tiger Woods book by Armen Keteyian and Jeff Benedict (awesome book BTW). Tiger was even brutal and ruthless to long time people in his supposed inner circle, let alone his opponents.

So I'm arguing that to be an All Time Great, you need to have that bloodthirsty viciousness. Most people don't have this, and so we see a lot of great athletes, but they are a step below the All Timers.

Feel free to argue and discuss.

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Agree. Although I don't see MJ as any more of a rectal cavity than most people are.

That's what I was alluding to in my original question, that to be an all time great, you probably have those tendencies. Of course, people are entitled to their opinions, I really wanted to know the basis of origin. Thus, while some might find him to be an arse, to me, his sins don't really approach the level of athletes who've done incorrigible things, and yet have been considered idols by many. I won't name names, I'm sure everyone can come up with a few, there might even be a certain Stanfurd alum noted above. There are a few Cal alums we might even be less than proud of. In reality, few are above reproach.

Was Wayne Gretzky an A-hole?

That said, I hear Ty Cobb was a pretty good ballplayer and maybe not so nice.

My sister worked as a waitress at Baker's Square in SoCal back in the day. She was new to waitressing so she got the worst shifts.

Late one evening two guys sat at one of her tables and just ordered coffee. That's it.

She took their orders and went back to the kitchen where the staff said: "You just waited on Michael Jordan!"

Of course she knew the name, but she didn't recognize him because she doesn't follow basketball. She thought they were full of crap and pranking her.

She waited on the two guys while they discussed business, refilling their coffee, and figuring her coworkers were out to make her look stupid.

An hour later they left and she got a $20 tip for two cups of coffee.

I think MJ is alright.

It's definitely worthwhile sports TV in this covid shut down. Very well done series. I mean you can always watch Super Bowl 10 again.

I just learned that Isiah Thomas has his masters from Cal. Never knew that.

I see that Dennis Rodman came up as a topic so another story:

I was in Las Vegas in 1998 and staying at The Mirage.

I was playing craps at about 3am and the table next to me was being setup to be opened which was unusual given my table was hardly full. The casino overall was mostly empty.

Up walks Dennis Rodman with a petite woman with bright blue eyes and dirty blonde hair I didn't recognize (I always saw Carmen Electra as a brunette). Lots of guys were elbowing each other about what a hottie she was - especially her figure. No one else recognize her either.

Dennis Rodman (who was a Bull at the time) was teasing this guy for wearing a Lakers hat. He said: "Lakers? LAKERS!? Give me that hat!" He took it off the guys head before handing it back saying: "Naw, Lakers are cool, man."

While that was going on I asked the pit boss if he came in often and he said he did. He also said they hated working his table because of all the drunken chaos, his tips were bad, and he was a poor player.

He let us all play alongside him at his table. He was playing with chip colors I had never seen before - chips worth $10K, $25K, $50K.

I called my friends who were up in the room asleep. I told them I was playing craps with Dennis Rodman and they should come down. They said they would but they never did. They fell back asleep.

Overall, Rodman seemed about like what you'd think he would be like. Carmen Electra didn't play or really say anything. She was very quiet and kind of spaced out.

I think the documentary is A+ and I was never a Bulls or Jordan fan. Steve Kerr said Rodman was a quiet and nice teammate...except when he had a camera rolling on him.
I can't believe how chickensh@it the Pistons were. Like in women's basketball, over aggressiveness and cheap shots are just making up for lack of skill. Horse collaring guys doing lay ups, pushing after the play and forearm smashes to the face are all cowardly. You have to make an offer to guys like that to meet them after the game behind the gym for a fight. It has no place on a basketball court. It infuriated me just watching it. It is analogous to a hockey enforcer that has no game but a strong right cross.

dimitrig said:

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I was in Las Vegas in 1998 and staying at The Mirage

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nice, thanks for sharing dimitrig; moneyhooners honeymooners?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001182/bio says
> She married Dennis Rodman in the "Chapel of the Flowers" in Las Vegas, Nevada.

snip from Ms Miranda's imdb page..
> Spouse (2)
> Dave Navarro (22 November 2003 - 20 February 2007) ( divorced)
> Dennis Rodman (14 November 1998 - 6 April 1999) ( divorced)

bearister said:

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Like in women's basketball over aggressiveness and cheap shots are just making up for lack of skill

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Similar experience...Hard Rock hotel/casino, post-bachelor party, about May 1999, was with the bachelor (we may have been drunk) and ran across Rodman at the blackjack table at 3 am. I said "Hey Dennis, my buddy here is getting married in a few weeks!" He took one look at my friend, with his stupid "bachelor" shirt and bowling ball we tied to his leg, laughed and said "Don't do it! Don't do it, man!" Then he signed his shirt. He was hammered.

75bear said:

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I loved the first 2 episodes - I'm definitely watching the next 8. Though my interest might be partially due to not having much other new content to watch these days.

I'll take a stab at the a-hole subject. I am proposing that to truly be one of the all time greats - I mean like Top 5 athletes ever level - you have to have an assassin type of personality and play. You have to want to rip the heart out of your opponent and stomp out their hope and confidence every time you compete on and off the court.

Example A - Michael Jordan. Checks all of the above boxes.

Example B - Tiger Woods. Tiger is arguably as big and successful a figure as Michael Jordan. If you don't think Tiger was as ruthless as Michael, read the Tiger Woods book by Armen Keteyian and Jeff Benedict (awesome book BTW). Tiger was even brutal and ruthless to long time people in his supposed inner circle, let alone his opponents.

So I'm arguing that to be an All Time Great, you need to have that bloodthirsty viciousness. Most people don't have this, and so we see a lot of great athletes, but they are a step below the All Timers.

Feel free to argue and discuss.

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The thing about the greats is it has always been all about them. It starts out being all about your craft. Single mindedness to the exclusion of all other considerations. You then become a Great and it isn't just all about your craft, it is all about you period. Everyone is kissing your rear end. All of a sudden you start referring to yourself in the 3rd person. You think your opinions matter more than anyone else's, even outside your area of expertise. The rules that govern the rest of us chump's don't apply to you anymore. After a while you can pretty much rationalize anything because it benefits you. You have finally arrived....you're a Diva. It may be good for wins but being personally involved with someone like that can't be easy.

sandiegobears said:

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Similar experience...Hard Rock hotel/casino, post-bachelor party, about May 1999, was with the bachelor (we may have been drunk) and ran across Rodman at the blackjack table at 3 am. I said "Hey Dennis, my buddy here is getting married in a few weeks!" He took one look at my friend, with his stupid "bachelor" shirt and bowling ball we tied to his leg, laughed and said "Don't do it! Don't do it, man!" Then he signed his shirt. He was hammered.

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So is your friend still happily married?

TOTALLY AGREE.

The reason why the Celts didn't shake their hand after losing is because the Pistons are a bunch roughneck, dirty *******s. Even though they didn't shake the Pistons hands, that still DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT for the Pistons to do the same to the Bulls.

Just showed they were as bad losers (or worse) than they were winners. Always made up for lack of skill by playing dirty/ rough. Was horrible basketball to watch at the time. The only guy I respected from that team was Dumars, who played great face up defense and didn't resort to body-slamming/clotheslining people.

You can see from the replay that Isiah was 'ducking'/'hiding' while sneaking off the floor. I always believed he was as dirty or worse than all the rest -- just was the 'pretty face'. Loved the fact that Jordan said 'it's him or me' for the dream team. Screw him and his fake smile.

And Lame-beer is a total twat. Always started fights, but generally hid behind Mahorn or Rodman instead of actually fighting. Not surprising he's unapologetic. Probably (subconsciously) realizes they had no shot of winning unless the refs let them get away with no-blood-no-foul rules.

Ron Harper is my new hero. I'm thinking of changing my screen name to Harper4

LongTimeBearFan said:

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TOTALLY AGREE.

The reason why the Celts didn't shake their hand after losing is because the Pistons are a bunch roughneck, dirty *******s. Even though they didn't shake the Pistons hands, that still DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT for the Pistons to do the same to the Bulls.

Just showed they were as bad losers (or worse) than they were winners. Always made up for lack of skill by playing dirty/ rough. Was horrible basketball to watch at the time. The only guy I respected from that team was Dumars, who played great face up defense and didn't resort to body-slamming/clotheslining people.

You can see from the replay that Isiah was 'ducking'/'hiding' while sneaking off the floor. I always believed he was as dirty or worse than all the rest -- just was the 'pretty face'. Loved the fact that Jordan said 'it's him or me' for the dream team. Screw him and his fake smile.

And Lame-beer is a total twat. Always started fights, but generally hid behind Mahorn or Rodman instead of actually fighting. Not surprising he's unapologetic. Probably (subconsciously) realizes they had no shot of winning unless the refs let them get away with no-blood-no-foul rules.

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Do you blame the team or Chuck Daly?

Says Chuck:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing. Hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand, but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy. The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirty. I know some people thought we were, but we had to make contact and be very physical."

To be honest, as a Lakers fan I saw Shaq take a lot of punishment from opposing teams who got away with it because Shaq is a big guy and you can't call EVERY foul. I didn't like it, but I don't think it was dirty.

What was dirty was McHale clotheslining Rambis. Also, Raja Bell trying to choke Kobe out.

dimitrig said:

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LongTimeBearFan said:

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TOTALLY AGREE.

The reason why the Celts didn't shake their hand after losing is because the Pistons are a bunch roughneck, dirty *******s. Even though they didn't shake the Pistons hands, that still DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT for the Pistons to do the same to the Bulls.

Just showed they were as bad losers (or worse) than they were winners. Always made up for lack of skill by playing dirty/ rough. Was horrible basketball to watch at the time. The only guy I respected from that team was Dumars, who played great face up defense and didn't resort to body-slamming/clotheslining people.

You can see from the replay that Isiah was 'ducking'/'hiding' while sneaking off the floor. I always believed he was as dirty or worse than all the rest -- just was the 'pretty face'. Loved the fact that Jordan said 'it's him or me' for the dream team. Screw him and his fake smile.

And Lame-beer is a total twat. Always started fights, but generally hid behind Mahorn or Rodman instead of actually fighting. Not surprising he's unapologetic. Probably (subconsciously) realizes they had no shot of winning unless the refs let them get away with no-blood-no-foul rules.

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Do you blame the team or Chuck Daly?

Says Chuck:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either winghell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog standbut we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy. The other rule was, any time he went by you, you had to nail him. If he was coming off a screen, nail him. We didn't want to be dirtyI know some people thought we werebut we had to make contact and be very physical."

To be honest, as a Lakers fan I saw Shaq take a
lot of punishment from opposing teams who got away with it because Shaq is a big guy and you can't call EVERY foul. I didn't like it, but I don't think it was dirty.

What was dirty was McHale clotheslining Rambis. Also, Raja Bell trying to choke Kobe out.

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Or do you blame the league?

It's not like the pistons were the Astros. The pistons played dirty. But still played within the rules. If the league allowed you to body slam someone without it being a flagrant, then why not do it?

The pistons knew they only had one way they could beat Jordan. So why not take it?

bearister said:

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75bear said:

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I loved the first 2 episodes - I'm definitely watching the next 8. Though my interest might be partially due to not having much other new content to watch these days.

I'll take a stab at the a-hole subject. I am proposing that to truly be one of the all time greats - I mean like Top 5 athletes ever level - you have to have an assassin type of personality and play. You have to want to rip the heart out of your opponent and stomp out their hope and confidence every time you compete on and off the court.

Example A - Michael Jordan. Checks all of the above boxes.

Example B - Tiger Woods. Tiger is arguably as big and successful a figure as Michael Jordan. If you don't think Tiger was as ruthless as Michael, read the Tiger Woods book by Armen Keteyian and Jeff Benedict (awesome book BTW). Tiger was even brutal and ruthless to long time people in his supposed inner circle, let alone his opponents.

So I'm arguing that to be an All Time Great, you need to have that bloodthirsty viciousness. Most people don't have this, and so we see a lot of great athletes, but they are a step below the All Timers.

Feel free to argue and discuss.

---

The thing about the greats is it has always been all about them. It starts out being all about your craft. Single mindedness to the exclusion of all other considerations. You then become a Great and it isn't just all about your craft, it is all about you period. Everyone is kissing your rear end. All of a sudden you start referring to yourself in the 3rd person. You think your opinions matter more than anyone else's, even outside your area of expertise. The rules that govern the rest of us chump's don't apply to you anymore. After a while you can pretty much rationalize anything because it benefits you. You have finally arrived....you're a Diva. It may be good for wins but being personally involved with someone like that can't be easy.

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I think you are right, and you bring up good points.

The big existential question: Is it worth it to become an All Time Great if you have to give up simple human decency to get there.

I didn't actually realize Jordan refers to himself in the 3rd person as much as he does when I made my post.

bearister said:

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I didn't actually realize Jordan refers to himself in the 3rd person as much as he does when I made my post.

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Some of the greatest we have seen in the world are incredibly narcissistic, self-consumed (driven?), sometimes self-destructive and maybe very weird (at least from the movies I've seen):

• Steve Jobs
• Howard Hughes
• Mozart
• Jordan
• Gretzky
• Ricky Henderson
• John Lennon
• Kobe
• Brady
• Jeff Bezos

Are there some notable GOAT types who went against the grain of that personality profile?

My son played basketball at DLS with Joe Montana's youngest son. Joe sure seemed like a shy, regular guy the one time I spoke with him.

I haven't watched the last dance I never actually saw Jordan play, but thought this was fun...



[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwiKFho6qYc][/url]

HoopDreams said:

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I haven't watched the last dance I never actually saw Jordan play, but thought this was fun...



[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwiKFho6qYc][/url]

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That indeed was a fun watch. I heard Charles and MJ don't get along anymore. That's a shame.

KoreAmBear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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I haven't watched the last dance I never actually saw Jordan play, but thought this was fun...



[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwiKFho6qYc][/url]

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That indeed was a fun watch. I heard Charles and MJ don't get along anymore. That's a shame.

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Is MJ making himself look like more of an assassin than he really was? He had purported vendettas against borderline players like BJ Armstrong (with the Hornets), LaBradford Smith and The Glove. That was good TV when he laughed at Gary Payton's comments that he made MJ uncomfortable. Seemed like part of what he did was to have his teammates fear him as well and Steve Kerr was the one guy that stood up to the bully. Makes for good stories I guess.

Larry Bird

I just finished through episode 8... only 2 more episodes to go. It's pretty interesting getting an inside look at one of the all time greats. Obviously we can't relate, but I wonder if all of us would have these high standards for everyone else around us like Michael did. Michael said he was really rough and antagonizing toward his own teammates because he wanted to get the best out of them.

Question: Is this "intimidation" of one's teammates the best way to maximize wins and titles? It worked in Michael's case. But did this happen in spite of his methods, or because of them?

Super interesting question.

75bear said:

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I just finished through episode 8... only 2 more episodes to go. It's pretty interesting getting an inside look at one of the all time greats. Obviously we can't relate, but I wonder if all of us would have these high standards for everyone else around us like Michael did. Michael said he was really rough and antagonizing toward his own teammates because he wanted to get the best out of them.

Question: Is this "intimidation" of one's teammates the best way to maximize wins and titles? It worked in Michael's case. But did this happen in spite of his methods, or because of them?

Super interesting question.

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I guess it depends on the circumstances. It didn't work for LeBron with the Lakers last year, he lost his teammates after they felt like he was throwing them under the bus and willing to trade everyone to get AD. It didn't work for Kobe near the end of his career as again his teammates felt he was intolerable. I believe it's a fine line. If you win championships, that changes the narrative entirely.

Scottie Pippen said to be 'beyond livid' at Jordan for portrayal in The Last Dance


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/21/scottie-pippen-the-last-dance-michael-jordan?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Michael Jordan burned bridges, LeBron James builds them. I know who I prefer


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/20/the-last-dance-espn-lebron-james-michael-jordan-nba?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other