Good form.

Growler91 said:

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I like this guy. In addition to PG depth, we now have two really good 3-ball shooters to go with Bradley. Fox's recruiting moves have been solid and logical and I bet this team takes a significant positive step next season.

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Agree. While it remains to be seen how the two grad-transfers will adapt to the higher level of competition and athleticism, they look like they will be able to provide some help, at least.

While I welcome any player who comes to Cal, and will root for him as long as he is trying hard on the court, I'm not sure I understand this move. The headline bills Foreman as a point guard, but he is primarily a perimeter shooter, from what I could find out. His assists are not impressive, only 2 per game. And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that. Hyder is young, only a soph, and maybe he can do that, but again, his 3 assists per game were in a lower level of competition at Fresno. Cal needed better perimeter shooting last season, but the bigger needs were in the front line, at center, and small forward particularly, and at point guard, especially with Austin graduating. Bradley is playing a small forward, and at 6-4, he is too small to play up front against often bigger opponents. He is fine up front when Fox goes small, but I'd rather see him as the 2 guard against most teams.

Foreman is another transfer who shot well for teams who played in conferences who were not anywhere near the level of the PAC12 even in down years. We all saw what happened with Kareem South, whose perimeter shooting fell way off for Cal from what it was at Corpus Christi, when he jumped up a few notches to play in the PAC12. If you are bringing in a transfer for perimeter shooting, I'd rather be looking for another Grant Mullins, someone from a league not as far below the PAC12, and 40% or better three point shooter. 36% is not great three-point shooting - it is just average for D1. Foreman looks good in a mixtape, and I am pleased that he has a mid-range shot as well as a three, and nice pull up jumper. Let's hope hope he gives us some good defense.

As to Cal making a positive step forward this season, I'm guardedly optimistic, because for Cal to be more than marginally better, not only will the recruits and transfers have to be as good as advertised, but many of the veterans will have to improve a bunch, and they will have missed a lot of practice time with the shutdown response to the Corona virus. The same is true for all teams and players.

SFCityBear said:

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Foreman is another transfer who shot well for teams who played in conferences who were not anywhere near the level of the PAC12 even in down years. We all saw what happened with Kareem South, whose perimeter shooting fell way off for Cal from what it was at Corpus Christi, when he jumped up a few notches to play in the PAC12. If you are bringing in a transfer for perimeter shooting, I'd rather be looking for another Grant Mullins, someone from a league not as far below the PAC12, and 40% or better three point shooter. 36% is not great three-point shooting - it is just average for D1. Foreman looks good in a mixtape, and I am pleased that he has a mid-range shot as well as a three, and nice pull up jumper. Let's hope hope he gives us some good defense.

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36% was actually pretty impressive considering the degree of difficulty on those off-the-dribble bombs shown in his highlight tape. I'm guessing he could get much closer to 40% with a little more selectivity.

Think about the difficulty the opposing defense will have guarding Betley from the wing, Bradley from the SG slot and Foreman hoisting from the 1/2 court line. What a conundrum.

Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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Good point, but I think Austin averaged something more like 4 assists his junior season, playing under Wyking Jones' looser reins. Last season, he spent many of the early games on the bench, half way in Fox's dog house.

How will Foreman's point guard skills be at this level? That is a legitimate question to pose, as that seems to be where we need him the most. Great that it looks like he can play a little shooting guard, as needed, and has a sweet shot that compliments Joel Brown's known weakness.

Bottom line, as Oaktown wrote, we did what we could to shore up the position, while maintaining our future options (hopefully we will win a few more games and hence be more attractive to better preps).

Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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I am aware of that. I did not say "AVERAGE 4-5 assists". I said "CAN GET 4-5 assists", which means "able to get" or "capable of getting" 4 or 5 assists. He had seven games last season where he got 4 assists or more, including 5 PAC12 games, and his best games for assists were 5 vs ASU and OSU. Austin was hurt during the preseason and also was in competition with Brown for minutes during all of the preseason, and only after several conference games did he begin to average his usual number of minutes, 35 or so, as he had done the year before. I don't know how much injury affected his play last season.

Why not look at his body of work, both of his years at Cal? Austin had his best career year, in terms of assists, the year before, 2019. He averaged 4.3 assists per game. He got at least 4 assists in 15 games, (7 times in PAC12 games) including 11 assists vs San Jose St., 9 assists vs Washington and San Diego State, 8 assists vs USF, 7 assists vs Colorado, 6 assists vs USC and Hampton.

It might be a fair point to say that Fox's offense may not result in a lot of assists for his point guard, but it also might be a fair point to say that in 2019, Austin had a couple more players capable of catching a ball and scoring with it, such as Sueing and Vanover, as opposed to the 2020 roster which included Lars, Thorpe, Kuany, and South, the latter who went into a prolonged slump in conference play.

What I'd like to see Cal get is a point guard who can average 5-6 assists, and be capable of getting 10 assists. I'd prefer it be a freshman like Brown who plays solid defense and gets better each year to reach a high level as a junior. Good transfer point guards are hard to find, unless you are Sean Miller, who brought Mark Lyons with him to Arizona from Xavier, and got a great transfer in TJ McConnell who practically owned the PAC12 for two seasons.

SFCityBear said:

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Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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What I'd like to see Cal get is a point guard who can average 5-6 assists, and be capable of getting 10 assists.

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At this stage in a grad transfer? I'd like the moon with a fence around it.

Big C said:

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Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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Good point, but I think Austin averaged something more like 4 assists his junior season, playing under Wyking Jones' looser reins.

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The year we went 8-23? Are you kidding me?

Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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What I'd like to see Cal get is a point guard who can average 5-6 assists, and be capable of getting 10 assists.

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At this stage in a grad transfer? I'd like the moon with a fence around it.

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Of course not, obviously.

We have no more scholarships available. At that point I was writing about what I would eventually like Cal to have at point guard, my dream only.

Mark Lyons was a grad transfer, as good as they come. He was really a shooting guard, but some NBA scout told him the only way he'd make it in the NBA was as point guard. He wanted to play point at Xavier, but Miller made him the shooting guard, because they had a better point guard. When Miller brought him to Arizona, the other starting guard was Nick Johnson, so they kind of shared point guard duties and scoring duties. It worked out OK, as Lyons averaged 16 points, almost 3 assists. and Arizona went 27-8. If Brown doesn't improve offensively a lot, we may see something like two combo guards, or one plus Bradley in the backcourt, and no real point guard.

SFCityBear said:

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While I welcome any player who comes to Cal, and will root for him as long as he is trying hard on the court, I'm not sure I understand this move. The headline bills Foreman as a point guard, but he is primarily a perimeter shooter, from what I could find out. His assists are not impressive, only 2 per game. And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that. Hyder is young, only a soph, and maybe he can do that, but again, his 3 assists per game were in a lower level of competition at Fresno. Cal needed better perimeter shooting last season, but the bigger needs were in the front line, at center, and small forward particularly, and at point guard, especially with Austin graduating. Bradley is playing a small forward, and at 6-4, he is too small to play up front against often bigger opponents. He is fine up front when Fox goes small, but I'd rather see him as the 2 guard against most teams.

Foreman is another transfer who shot well for teams who played in conferences who were not anywhere near the level of the PAC12 even in down years. We all saw what happened with Kareem South, whose perimeter shooting fell way off for Cal from what it was at Corpus Christi, when he jumped up a few notches to play in the PAC12. If you are bringing in a transfer for perimeter shooting, I'd rather be looking for another Grant Mullins, someone from a league not as far below the PAC12, and 40% or better three point shooter. 36% is not great three-point shooting - it is just average for D1. Foreman looks good in a mixtape, and I am pleased that he has a mid-range shot as well as a three, and nice pull up jumper. Let's hope hope he gives us some good defense.

As to Cal making a positive step forward this season, I'm guardedly optimistic, because for Cal to be more than marginally better, not only will the recruits and transfers have to be as good as advertised, but many of the veterans will have to improve a bunch, and they will have missed a lot of practice time with the shutdown response to the Corona virus. The same is true for all teams and players.

Betley is From Penn is Ivy League same league Mullins came from.

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Growler91 said:

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Big C said:

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Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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Good point, but I think Austin averaged something more like 4 assists his junior season, playing under Wyking Jones' looser reins.

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The year we went 8-23? Are you kidding me?

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I'm not following your point: His junior year at Cal (Jones' last year) Paris Austin averaged more assists than he did last season (if it's true that he only got 2,5 APG last season). I'm pretty sure he was close to 4 APG in 2018-19.

Edit: Just looked it up on the conference website. In 2018-19, Paris Austin averaged 4.3 assists-per-game, ranking him seventh in the conference. IMO, Austin wasn't a GREAT passer/facilitator, but he was half way decent in that regard.

Now, what were we discussing? Oh yeah, how will Makale Foreman be at point guard for us? Well, he will be a better shooter than Paris Austin. Hopefully, his other PG skills will be nearly as good, but it is a little concerning that he only averaged 2 APG last season.

SFCityBear said:

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Growler91 said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that.

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SFCitybear, Paris Austin averaged 2.5 assists a game last season. SMH.

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I am aware of that. I did not say "AVERAGE 4-5 assists". I said "CAN GET 4-5 assists", which means "able to get" or "capable of getting" 4 or 5 assists. He had seven games last season where he got 4 assists or more, including 5 PAC12 games, and his best games for assists were 5 vs ASU and OSU. Austin was hurt during the preseason and also was in competition with Brown for minutes during all of the preseason, and only after several conference games did he begin to average his usual number of minutes, 35 or so, as he had done the year before. I don't know how much injury affected his play last season.

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You talked about Foreman's 2 and Hyder's 3 assists per game, so of course you meant you wanted 4-5 assists per game. And even if you didn't mean per game (i.e. average), then what makes you think they wouldn't get 4 or 5 on a given night? Do you think Hyder got exactly 3 assists in every game?

BTW, Brown had more assists per minute than Austin (0.092apm to 0.089apm), and a better assist to turnover ratio (1.6:1 v. 1.08:1) so I guess we are okay after all.

Love Paris Austin. No disrespect to what he did as a junior, but that's not relevant at all anymore. We are not replacing 4-5 assists a game. This guy is a totally different player.

philbert said:

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Not really sure how to feel about this guy, but shooting ability always translates. But how easily can he get open and get that shot off without help? I guess we'll find out.

I am a little perplexed by Foreman's stats last year. How does a guard who shoots 85% from the free throw line and 36% on 3 pointers only shoot 36.5% from the field. Can anyone with more knowledge of his season explain?

Maybe he isnt as good driving to the basket.

Matthew Patel said:

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philbert said:

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Not really sure how to feel about this guy, but shooting ability always translates. But how easily can he get open and get that shot off without help? I guess we'll find out.

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It looks from the vid that he can get that shot off any time he likes. The question is what percentage of those types actually went in. I'm guessing not near 36%.

oskidunker said:

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SFCityBear said:

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While I welcome any player who comes to Cal, and will root for him as long as he is trying hard on the court, I'm not sure I understand this move. The headline bills Foreman as a point guard, but he is primarily a perimeter shooter, from what I could find out. His assists are not impressive, only 2 per game. And what Cal needs is a point guard who can get 4-5 assists just to replace Paris Austin in the lineup, without looking to improve. Brown has not shown yet that he can do that. Hyder is young, only a soph, and maybe he can do that, but again, his 3 assists per game were in a lower level of competition at Fresno. Cal needed better perimeter shooting last season, but the bigger needs were in the front line, at center, and small forward particularly, and at point guard, especially with Austin graduating. Bradley is playing a small forward, and at 6-4, he is too small to play up front against often bigger opponents. He is fine up front when Fox goes small, but I'd rather see him as the 2 guard against most teams.

Foreman is another transfer who shot well for teams who played in conferences who were not anywhere near the level of the PAC12 even in down years. We all saw what happened with Kareem South, whose perimeter shooting fell way off for Cal from what it was at Corpus Christi, when he jumped up a few notches to play in the PAC12. If you are bringing in a transfer for perimeter shooting, I'd rather be looking for another Grant Mullins, someone from a league not as far below the PAC12, and 40% or better three point shooter. 36% is not great three-point shooting - it is just average for D1. Foreman looks good in a mixtape, and I am pleased that he has a mid-range shot as well as a three, and nice pull up jumper. Let's hope hope he gives us some good defense.

As to Cal making a positive step forward this season, I'm guardedly optimistic, because for Cal to be more than marginally better, not only will the recruits and transfers have to be as good as advertised, but many of the veterans will have to improve a bunch, and they will have missed a lot of practice time with the shutdown response to the Corona virus. The same is true for all teams and players.

Betley is From Penn is Ivy League same league Mullins came from.

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And the point is? I like Betley, and he was a 40% or close to that 3-point shooter in his first 2 seasons. He was injured for most of his 3rd season, and last year he may have been banged up as well, since he missed 5 games and played only a handful of minutes in some others. Plus he brings some rebounding to the table, which Cal needs. Whether he can do it against Pac-12 opponents is the question, as it is with all the transfers from lesser leagues. I don't follow other leagues as much, but I think the Ivy League might be a stronger conference than the AEC or the Southern conferences where Foreman has had his experience, and it may not be as strong a conference as the MWC, where Hyder had his experience. I'm no expert on how strong each of the current conferences is - I'd have to check with someone like Tsubamoto for that, or maybe you know.

mdbear said:

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I am a little perplexed by Foreman's stats last year. How does a guard who shoots 85% from the free throw line and 36% on 3 pointers only shoot 36.5% from the field. Can anyone with more knowledge of his season explain?

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Not very tall and not very athletic so probably struggles to finish and perhaps not good in the midrange. I looked up his stats and 2/3 of his shots were 3s, so between 37% and 38% on 2s. However, Cal was desperate for a third ball-handler and he clearly can shoot from distance, so I am more excited about what he can do than disappointed about what he can't.

Sluggo

Growler91 said:

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Love Paris Austin. No disrespect to what he did as a junior, but that's not relevant at all anymore. We are not replacing 4-5 assists a game. This guy is a totally different player.

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Cal has little offensive structure. We may look a little better than in 2019, but our offensive results were not as good. You want shooters, I gather. Fine. But who gives them the ball to shoot? I saw very few guys working to get open in the Cal offense. In fact, I haven's seen this very much since Montgomery was at Cal. The reason Cal was more competitive under Fox than under Jones was simply that he got Cal to play defense a little better. But defense has its limits. At some point you have to start making baskets at a high rate. That means taking more high percentage shots, and more of them, not just depending on your athletes to all be good enough to shake their defenders and work their way open for a look at the basket.

The assist is given for finding a teammate open for a high percentage shot. Get more assists, and your shooting percentage goes up. An athlete trying to dribble around and shake his defender to get open loses precious seconds, and too often he doesn't get a good look, but shoots anyway, a low percentage shot. More assists means more field goal attempts. Put more attempts together with more high percentage shots is what gives you better offense, not having great one-on-one shooters. They are a dime a dozen, Try and find players who make their teammates better today is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

In 2019, under Wyking Jones, Austin had 4.3 assists, Bradley 2 assists, Sueing 2 assists, and the team averaged 11 assists.In 2020, under Mark Fox, Cal had Austin with 2.5 assists per game, and Bradley with 1.5, and the team averaged 9 assists. 9, 10, 11 assists is chopped liver. If you want to compete you need at least 15-16 assists, and 20 would be very good.

Here are some Cal teams compared:

2020 (Mark Fox) Cal was 348th in the NCAA in assists, 265th in FG%, and 319th in FGs made.

2019 (Wyking Jones): 334th in assists, 272nd in FG%, and 313th in FGs made.

2016 (Cuonzo Martin) 182nd in assists, 65th in FG%, and 99th in FGs made

2010 (Mike Montgomery) 50th in assists, 22nd in FG%, and 19th in FGs made.

As for Makale Foreman, we have to throw out everything he did before in leagues that were not as strong as the PAC12. Unless one is experienced in evaluating players, it is hard to predict anything. He may perform the same in the PAC12 or he may perform worse or better in the PAC12. I wish him and Cal the best. Neither Stony Brook or Chattanooga played a tough schedule with many ranked teams or good teams, such as a PAC12 team will play. He did not seem to be a point guard at Chattanooga, as there was a guard who had many more assists, so he may have been a shooting guard. At Stony Brook, there were 5 guys, including Makale who averaged 2 assists per game, and maybe he flourished in that system, but the team averaged only 11 assists, 279th in the NCAA. Looks like they had 5 shooters playing by themselves, and Cal won't get away with that in the PAC12. It looks like Foreman will bring some more scoring to the off guard, if he can negotiate the defenders of the PAC12. He will help, even though I was hoping for another Frankie Ferrari. I hope you can let me keep my dreams of a passing team, even though it may not happen this year. Who knows? Maybe we see improvement in team play across the board, in which case, we don't need a true point guard.

mdbear said:

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I am a little perplexed by Foreman's stats last year. How does a guard who shoots 85% from the free throw line and 36% on 3 pointers only shoot 36.5% from the field. Can anyone with more knowledge of his season explain?

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Richard Midgley
https://tv5.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/11284/richard-midgley

Can bring the ball up and initiate the offense. Likes having the ball in his hands. Not good at driving to the hoop and/or driving and dishing for assists. Sweet shot with deep range. Can't have too many of those guys. Some guys should pretty much always shoot from 3, a much better percentage/payoff shot. That is fine, it opens up the court for others.

Honestly, he is a solid pick up at this point. I think he will he fun to root for. It is the guy we use his scholarship to bring in next year that will make the difference in the program.

i am impressed OB, 10 stars without posting a word!

calumnus said:

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mdbear said:

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I am a little perplexed by Foreman's stats last year. How does a guard who shoots 85% from the free throw line and 36% on 3 pointers only shoot 36.5% from the field. Can anyone with more knowledge of his season explain?

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Richard Midgley
https://tv5.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/stats/_/id/11284/richard-midgley

Can bring the ball up and initiate the offense. Likes having the ball in his hands. Not good at driving to the hoop and/or driving and dishing for assists. Sweet shot with deep range. Can't have too many of those guys. Some guys should pretty much always shoot from 3, a much better percentage/payoff shot. That is fine, it opens up the court for others.

Honestly, he is a solid pick up at this point. I think he will he fun to root for. It is the guy we use his scholarship to bring in next year that will make the difference in the program.

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I don't think I understand the Midgely comparison. His field goal percentage declined every year from 47% as a freshman to 38.5% as a senior. He also shot better from the field than 3 point range in all but his senior year. Foreman's shooting percentage improved from freshman to sophomore year but then regressed in his junior year.

sluggo said:

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mdbear said:

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I am a little perplexed by Foreman's stats last year. How does a guard who shoots 85% from the free throw line and 36% on 3 pointers only shoot 36.5% from the field. Can anyone with more knowledge of his season explain?

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Not very tall and not very athletic so probably struggles to finish and perhaps not good in the midrange. I looked up his stats and 2/3 of his shots were 3s, so between 37% and 38% on 2s. However, Cal was desperate for a third ball-handler and he clearly can shoot from distance, so I am more excited about what he can do than disappointed about what he can't.

Sluggo

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Great assessment, probably.