A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

Because they're a small Catholic school in Nebraska ?

Well, for one thing, they're one of the schools under NCAA investigation in response to the FBI's own investigation involving Christian Dawkins and others. Craig McDermott, the Creighton HC, seems to have been awfully tight with Dawkins as this timeline shows.

https://www.omaha.com/sports/college/creighton/timeline-details-creightons-involvement-in-college-basketballs-corruption-case/article_1edf77ab-4bdd-54e7-819c-fc35fff2777b.html

Once they got Ricky Kreklow away from us, that gave them P5 recognition, which started the ball rolling. Now look at them.

SFCityBear said:

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Once they got Ricky Kreklow away from us, that gave them P5 recognition, which started the ball rolling. Now look at them.

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He played really well for them, much better than his time with us.

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Once they got Ricky Kreklow away from us, that gave them P5 recognition, which started the ball rolling. Now look at them.

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He played really well for them, much better than his time with us.

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I looked up his stats for his first and only season at Creighton. I wouldn't exactly say "much better". While he improved in several categories it wasn't leaps ahead of what he did in his last year at Cal. He scored about 2 pts more per game, with both his 2pt and 3pt percentages increasing. His FT percentage dipped a bit. His stat trajectory could just as easily be explained by what you would expect from a player who moved to a less competitive conference In their senior year (evidenced by a drop in SOS at Creighton compared to his last season at Cal).

SFCityBear said:

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calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Once they got Ricky Kreklow away from us, that gave them P5 recognition, which started the ball rolling. Now look at them.

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He played really well for them, much better than his time with us.

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My post was an attempt at humor.

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Well to be honest I wasn't replying to your post, and I think the sarcasm was lost on me in calumnus' post. Putting both together now, I can see now that perhaps your posts were likely in jest. None the less, Ricky's stats support your perspectives.

santacruzbear said:

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A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

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The main reason: Men's basketball is the sport they've chosen to hang their hat on. Like many mid-majors (and some majors, e.g. KU), there's little else to focus on athletically and they give it maximum attention. Gonzaga, Butler and, in another era, USF are classic examples of what can be achieved by lasering in on a program that has limited cost, decent revenue potential and needs only a few quality performers to be very good.

CALiforniALUM said:

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calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Once they got Ricky Kreklow away from us, that gave them P5 recognition, which started the ball rolling. Now look at them.

---

He played really well for them, much better than his time with us.

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I looked up his stats for his first and only season at Creighton. I wouldn't exactly say "much better". While he improved in several categories it wasn't leaps ahead of what he did in his last year at Cal. He scored about 2 pts more per game, with both his 2pt and 3pt percentages increasing. His FT percentage dipped a bit. His stat trajectory could just as easily be explained by what you would expect from a player who moved to a less competitive conference In their senior year (evidenced by a drop in SOS at Creighton compared to his last season at Cal).

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Look at the conference stats his final year at Cal vs. Creighton:
FG% Cal .327 Creighton .487
3pt% Cal .303 Creighton .452

.303 is not good, .452 is great.

He was 7th in scoring at Cal and 3rd in scoring at Creighton.

If you look at the advanced stats he was the 9th best player in conference at Cal but was Creighton's #1 BEST player in conference play. I think that is significant.

santacruzbear said:

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A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

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Right now, the Big East is a better basketball conference than the Pac-12. Basketball first environment.

mbBear said:

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santacruzbear said:

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A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

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Right now, the Big East is a better basketball conference than the Pac-12. Basketball first environment.

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Is ASU really ranked in the preseason poll as being among the top ten teams in the country? Wouldn't that be quite a leap for them? They never made the top 25 last season.

SFCityBear said:

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mbBear said:

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santacruzbear said:

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A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

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Right now, the Big East is a better basketball conference than the Pac-12. Basketball first environment.

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Is ASU really ranked in the preseason poll as being among the top ten teams in the country? Wouldn't that be quite a leap for them? They never made the top 25 last season.

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Seems a stretch but here is one such preseason poll and they give their reasoning: returning players plus a top recruiting class with at least one 5 star, which is a proven formula for success
https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/06/12/2020-2021-college-basketball-preseason-top-25/

calumnus said:

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SFCityBear said:

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mbBear said:

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santacruzbear said:

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A cal roommate who lives in Omaha sent me this. My first reaction was how does Creighton do it and if they can why can't Cal.


"Dear Creighton Athletics Supporter,

We always have believed that college athletics is an example of good in our world. One of the incredible values of athletics is the discovery that the inconceivable can be conceived and then achieved. We can do so much more individually and as a member of a team than we thought we could. We are tremendously excited about the 2020-21 men's basketball team. We finished last year rated as one of the Top 10 teams in the country and have the majority of our team returning, plus some important new additions. Our schedule for 2020-21 has been rated by many as the most difficult in the country. With the addition of UConn to the BIG EAST, plus an outstanding field in the Battle for Atlantis, a home game against a top Big 10 opponent, a home game against preseason top ten Arizona State, plus games at Kansas and at Nebraska, we will have 27 games against high major opponents in 2020-21. Who would have imagined even ten years ago Creighton being in the BIG EAST, winning the BIG EAST regular season title, being Top 5 in attendance, having every Creighton game televised on a national television platform, finishing as one of the top 10 teams in the country and having a schedule that includes 27 high major opponentsa great example of the inconceivable being conceived and then achieved."

---

Right now, the Big East is a better basketball conference than the Pac-12. Basketball first environment.

---

Is ASU really ranked in the preseason poll as being among the top ten teams in the country? Wouldn't that be quite a leap for them? They never made the top 25 last season.

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Seems a stretch but here is one such preseason poll and they give their reasoning: returning players plus a top recruiting class with at least one 5 star, which is a proven formula for success
https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2020/06/12/2020-2021-college-basketball-preseason-top-25/

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Thanks. It seems that the ranking depends a lot on the return of Remy Martin, ASU's best player, and he declared for the NBA draft on 3/30. Some think he will go through the process and then return to ASU, like Payton Pritchard did the year before with Oregon. I'm not sure how good ASU's recruiting class is. ESPN has them at #12, while 247 Sports has them at #39.

Returning players plus a top recruiting class with at least one 5-star may have been a proven formula for success somewhere, but so far at Cal, when we've done that, it has not been successful, very much, or very often. It is maybe a proven formula for being awarded a pre-season ranking in the polls, but success does not always follow the gaudy recruit rankings. Often it is because we expect a player to live up to his ranking right away in his first year, and sometimes it takes time to develop and get used to playing against more mature players in a faster game.

2015-16: Rabb and Brown, combined with Bird, Wallace, and Mathews landed Cal a #14 pre-season ranking, but Cal soon fell out of the polls, and resurfaced near the end of the season, finish 3rd in the PAC, only to lose to Hawaii in the NCAA.

2013-14: 5-star Bird, Mathews, Singer and Rooks combined with Cobbs, Wallace, Kravish and Solomon also finished 3rd in the PAC, but went unranked all season and lost in the 3rd round of the NIT

2003-04: Powe, Ubaka, Kately, and McGuire combined with Tamir, Midgley, and Benson to finish 13-15, 4th in the PAC10, and go unranked all season.

1992-93: Kidd, Grigsby, and Haase combined with Murray, Hendrick, Buckley and Roberts, and were ranked for only 3 weeks in December, then fell out of the rankings. They finished 2nd in the PAC10 and knocked off Duke in the Sweet 16 round.

1993-94: Yogi Stewart, Duck, and McQueen combined with Kidd, Murray, Roberts, and Buckley. Grigsby was hurt and played just 3 games. They were ranked #6 pre-season, fell out of the rankings, then finished 2nd in the PAC10, and lost to Wisconsin Green Bay in the 1st round of the NCAA. They were ranked #16 at the end.

1970-71: Phil Chenier and John Coughran combined with Charlie Johnson, Ansley Truitt, and Jackie Ridgle. There were no numbered recruit rankings in those days, but IMO, all five of these players would have been 5-star recruits in their day. They went unranked all season, and finished 3rd in the PAC8

So from that time to today, the one thing that stands out to me is that while combining good returning players with a top recruiting class may be integral to success, coaching and team chemistry still matter. A lot.