The Montgomery Screen offense

3,361 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by SFCityBear
oskidunker
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I don't think Fox uses screens as much, probably to the detriment of our shooting percentages. Why domyou suppose this is not emphasized? Not paying close enough attention to figure out exactly what kind of offense Fox runs. Maybe its a function of not having a dominant big man.

South did seem to miss a lot of open threes in the conference.Maybe better shooters would open up the middle. Maybe a work in progress.

Trying to dream up a topic not including you know what.
Go Bears!
BeachedBear
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First off, thanks for coming up with a topic.

I haven't paid enough attention to Monty vs Fox offenses with regards to screening, but I would add a couple of comments, since I'm bored . . .

Monty had one of the best offensive development schemes in modern college basketball. Not the scheme itself, but more so how it evolved in practice during the season; and from season to season adjusted to his personnel. It was truly impressive. A few may argue that the downside of his approach was that defenses were not as effective (due to time spent on offense - sort of the anti-Cuonzo). The other downside was that it was not as effective at season's end - because it relied more on scheme than talent. Not sure I agree with the counters, but my observations seem to support these arguments.

Fox was in year one - with all new personnel. Not sure what his offensive scheme is. It was also changing and adapting to personnel during the season.

As for screens, I'm a fan - but it is also one of the recent points of emphasis that make it trickier than in the past. So there may be lots of players who were taught how to set a screen - that would now be called for a foul (similar to taking charges). Also, screens take a split second away from the flow of offense - perhaps FOX felt it would be too much to emphasize as the team was figuring out their offensive identity. Finally, there seemed to be an emphasis on defensive intensity and fortitude this season that may have taken away from offensive screen focus as well.
bearchamp
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Screens needn't take away from the flow of the offense, depends where and when. Off the ball screens are more effective in the flow than when set up like the top of the key screens often used in today's game.
Growler91
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Smart post. What we see as "screening" also reflects tempo and intentionality early in the possession rather than just holding at the top and setting up for a late shot. The data is really undeniable that Fox's tendency has been to take the air completely out of the ball. This equalizing strategy was a matter of urgent necessity last year, but it also reflects a pretty ingrained pattern with our coach. Average career rankings of Cal's recent coaches on tempo, offense and defense:

Fastest Tempo
Monty at Cal, 130
Fox at Nevada, 137
Cuonzo at Cal, 190
Wyking at Cal, 194
Fox at Georgia, 261
Fox at Cal, 315

Offensive Efficiency
Monty at Cal, 46
Fox at Nevada, 84
Fox at Georgia, 110
Cuonzo at Cal, 128
Fox at Cal, 195
Jones at Cal, 244

Defensive Efficiency
Cuonzo at Cal, 37
Fox at Georgia 62
Fox at Nevada, 62
Monty at Cal, 70
Fox at Cal, 130
Jones at Cal, 233

Takeaways: 1) It's a lot more fun to watch when the game is played throughout the shot clock. 2) Monty at Cal was a pretty good defensive coach too. 3) The Georgia years are ugly. I am sincerely hoping for a return of the Nevada approach. What does the Fox say?
KoreAmBear
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I remember Sean Miller saying that Monty's half court offenses were like buzz saws, you couldn't really stop it. And this was with good but not NBA talent like with Harper Kamp, Jorge G, MSF, Brandon Smith, etc. They just ran high-low and screening game so well it was beautiful to see.The ultimate game where a Monty team played above its weight was that home game v. Kansas with the Morris brothers and other NBA talent they had. We stayed with them until the end and Jorge wanted to fight the entire team. That was grit.
calumnus
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Growler91 said:

Smart post. What we see as "screening" also reflects tempo and intentionality early in the possession rather than just holding at the top and setting up for a late shot. The data is really undeniable that Fox's tendency has been to take the air completely out of the ball. This equalizing strategy was a matter of urgent necessity last year, but it also reflects a pretty ingrained pattern with our coach. Average career rankings of Cal's recent coaches on tempo, offense and defense:

Fastest Tempo
Monty at Cal, 130
Fox at Nevada, 137
Cuonzo at Cal, 190
Wyking at Cal, 194
Fox at Georgia, 261
Fox at Cal, 315

Offensive Efficiency
Monty at Cal, 46
Fox at Nevada, 84
Fox at Georgia, 110
Cuonzo at Cal, 128
Fox at Cal, 195
Jones at Cal, 244

Defensive Efficiency
Cuonzo at Cal, 37
Fox at Georgia 62
Fox at Nevada, 62
Monty at Cal, 70
Fox at Cal, 130
Jones at Cal, 233

Takeaways: 1) It's a lot more fun to watch when the game is played throughout the shot clock. 2) Monty at Cal was a pretty good defensive coach too. 3) The Georgia years are ugly. I am sincerely hoping for a return of the Nevada approach. What does the Fox say?


Good post, good info. What is your source? For comparison it would be interesting to see Braun as well. We have definitely had a lot of "defense first" coaches and Monty's offense was a refreshing change.

My theory is Trent Johnson, as a Monty disciple, had Nevada playing more like a Monty-coached team on offense. When Fox took over he kept as much of that scheme in place as he could but he did not take it with him to Georgia. Trent is on staff now, but not sure how much he is active in actual coaching.

Sometimes it is personnel decisions as much as scheme. Brown at SG last year is going to limit what you can do. It reminded me of Braun playing Knezevich at SG. Similarly, Kelly was one of our most effective players and should not have split time with Lars much as he did if you want to have an efficient offense.



Growler91
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Agree with all this. I really like that Trent Johnson is part of it all.

I looked at KenPom data, which only goes back to 2002. Not sure Braun's 2002-08 period is a fair representation of his body of work as it omits the Ed Gray and Sean Lampley squads... but looking at his ending stretch the numbers are middling, behind Monty in both offense and defense and down with Fox and Wyking in tempo.

O: 82
D: 90
Temp: 192

calumnus
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Growler91 said:

Agree with all this. I really like that Trent Johnson is part of it all.

I looked at KenPom data, which only goes back to 2002. Not sure Braun's 2002-08 period is a fair representation of his body of work as it omits the Ed Gray and Sean Lampley squads... but looking at his ending stretch the numbers are middling, behind Monty in both offense and defense and down with Fox and Wyking in tempo.

O: 82
D: 90
Temp: 192




Thanks. That is what I thought would be the case for Braun.

SFCityBear
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One Monty play that I haven't seen with any of the coaches who succeeded him is the double-screen, where two players screen their defenders at one side of the key. The shooter passes the ball to a 4th teammate, and then he crosses the key behind the double screen, and curls around the edge of the screen, receives a pass and is wide open behind the wide screen for an easy 10-15 foot jump shot, either straight or sometimes off the glass, depending on the preference and skill of the shooter. Monty's teams seldom ran this play, but when they did, they ran it to perfection, with Allen Crabbe, Justin Cobbs, and Jorge Gutierrez as the shooter.

This is an old play from another era. We ran it as sophomores in high school in the 1950s, and we ran it often. This play takes at least 4 players in specific roles and duties, and timing was everything, to hamper defenders from switching and preventing the shot. I'm not sure players today are comfortable with this type of disciplined play, requiring teamwork of 4 or 5 players, and a lot of practice to get the timing right. Montgomery was a master. He'd run a play, and even if it was successful, you might not see it again for a few games. Just to make opponents aware that Cal could do this any time, and they needed to prepare for it. I remember a period where the offense was struggling, and Monty taught them a weave, an offense used back in the 1940s into the 1950s, which used to lull defenses (and fans) to sleep The weave uses a number of dribble handoffs, where the dribbler sets a screen for a teammate, just as he is handing the ball off to him, so he can't be called for setting a moving pick. It required learning a new skill, and it required practice to get the timing perfect. The weave often resulted in a wide open layup. Monty used the weave just a few times, but it was enough to get his team out of its funk and get his offense back on track. He never used the weave for the rest of the season. Just kept them guessing that maybe he would use it.
Big C
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I don't mean this as an indictment of Monty or his offense (he was certainly a fine coach), but what happened during that first half in the game against Notre Dame when we only scored five points? Did somebody forget to plug the "buzz saw" in or something?
smh
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Big C said:

I don't mean this as an indictment of Monty or his offense (he was certainly a fine coach), but what happened during that first half in the game against Notre Dame when we only scored five points? Did somebody forget to plug the "buzz saw" in or something?
notre dame happened, amiright?
# drum roll / cymbals crash

nope, that's all i got. 'night all
muting more than 300 handles, turnaround is fair play
BeachedBear
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Big C said:

I don't mean this as an indictment of Monty or his offense (he was certainly a fine coach), but what happened during that first half in the game against Notre Dame when we only scored five points? Did somebody forget to plug the "buzz saw" in or something?
That one made me laugh. I do recall it was an early pre-season game on a neutral court and both teams were really bad in the first half (score was something like 16-5 at half time). Notre Dame went from really bad to merely stinky and won the game easily. It was a real outlier for both teams and painful to watch (or listen to). After the game, I recall Monty saying something like - that was just bizarre and just need to wake up from the nightmare.
Growler91
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BeachedBear said:

Big C said:

I don't mean this as an indictment of Monty or his offense (he was certainly a fine coach), but what happened during that first half in the game against Notre Dame when we only scored five points? Did somebody forget to plug the "buzz saw" in or something?
That one made me laugh. I do recall it was an early pre-season game on a neutral court and both teams were really bad in the first half (score was something like 16-5 at half time). Notre Dame went from really bad to merely stinky and won the game easily. It was a real outlier for both teams and painful to watch (or listen to). After the game, I recall Monty saying something like - that was just bizarre and just need to wake up from the nightmare.

For me this game encapsulated Gary Franklin's Cal career.
oskidunker
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Funny because a friend of mine had been waiting for Cal to play Notre Dame for years.
Go Bears!
Big C
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oskidunker said:

Funny because a friend of mine had been waiting for Cal to play Notre Dame for years.

In basketball?!?
oskidunker
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In anything
Go Bears!
calumnus
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Growler91 said:

BeachedBear said:

Big C said:

I don't mean this as an indictment of Monty or his offense (he was certainly a fine coach), but what happened during that first half in the game against Notre Dame when we only scored five points? Did somebody forget to plug the "buzz saw" in or something?
That one made me laugh. I do recall it was an early pre-season game on a neutral court and both teams were really bad in the first half (score was something like 16-5 at half time). Notre Dame went from really bad to merely stinky and won the game easily. It was a real outlier for both teams and painful to watch (or listen to). After the game, I recall Monty saying something like - that was just bizarre and just need to wake up from the nightmare.

For me this game encapsulated Gary Franklin's Cal career.

Crabbe played well and scored OK when we got him the ball but Kamp, Franklin, Gutierrez and Sanders-Frisen all had nightmare games...
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=303300025
bearmanpg
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I was curious about the first half box score ...... 2-25 from the floor....8%......
https://calbears.com/sports/2010/11/26/Stats_10731.aspx#GAME.BX1

This will give you first half stats.....
Growler91
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2 for 25 and 3 offensive boards. Ouch.
bearmanpg
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Growler91 said:

2 for 25 and 3 offensive boards. Ouch.
We actually lost the game at the line.....they were 26-37 while we only shot 9 ft's and made 6 of those.....20 pt difference at the line....Second half, we stomped them (lol) 39-36.....They shot 1-20 from beyond the arc (5%) for the game...You won't lose many when the opposition shoots like that from 3.....
SFCityBear
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bearmanpg said:

Growler91 said:

2 for 25 and 3 offensive boards. Ouch.
We actually lost the game at the line.....they were 26-37 while we only shot 9 ft's and made 6 of those.....20 pt difference at the line....Second half, we stomped them (lol) 39-36.....They shot 1-20 from beyond the arc (5%) for the game...You won't lose many when the opposition shoots like that from 3.....
The refs are always against us.
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