BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

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Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

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I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

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Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

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I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

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Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

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I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

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to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

HoopDreams said:

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oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

---

Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

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I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

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to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

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True, but you have to make a perfect pass for him to succeed on the low block. A lot of it seems to be just a lack of aggressiveness.

Someone noted that we took a lot of 3s last night. I hope that is going to be our philosophy going forward on our offense challenged team. Most of our possessions will be half court. Get the extra boost in points per shot by shooting 3s.

Hard to tell how athletic Lars is because his mind is to tentative. Athleticism isn't everything: Bird, Silas, etc.

HoopDreams said:

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oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

---

Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

---

I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

---

to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

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There was one play early on where Lars set pick for Bradley, and rolled perfectly to the basket. Both defenders went to defending Bradley, and left Lars, but Bradley either didn't seethe wide-open Lars, or decided to go it alone and either missed the tightly guarded shot, or lost the ball, I don't remember which, but either way it was disappointing. Pick and roll is one of the most fundamental plays in basketball, and players should be familiar with it, starting in high school or earlier. So far in three games, I've seen it executed well by Cal maybe once or twice. Especially with Bradley. He can score in so many ways, he should know he is going to draw both defenders to him, and Lars (or Kelly or Thorpe, etc) is going to be open 75% of the time, if he runs it right. Bradley is not a selfish player, and he tries to set people up, but sometimes I think he gets a little disgusted, and tries to bull his way to the basket on his own. Lars, as slow-reacting as he is, has learned a fair amount, and he can make wide open shots. He is not a shot creator, save for that baby hook, but he can make a layup. Just have to get him open. I'd also say that these are early games with very few practice sessions, and I'd expect the team to look a whole lot better 2-3 weeks from now.

i've been pleasantly surprised by Monty

of course he's not played much, and one game was vs a weak opponent, but he looks to have an understanding for the game. he moves well off the ball, doesn't force things, and gets the ball out of his hands quickly. he also has considerable bounce.

That's probably from good HS coaching, as ODowd players seem to have good fundamentals (good news with another ODowd player coming in. I think the ODowd to Cal pipeline is a good match for us.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

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Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

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I think Fox is playing this about the best way he can. Lars is slow reacting, but he is not a compete stiff in most matchups. He can do a few good things at both ends, and will play a few minutes.Fox has 3 options in the post, and all three have their good points and bad points. Kelly is a good rebounder, scorer, defender, but also slow and bit clumsy, and doesn't always play his hardest, IMO. Thorpe is athletic, but very raw. He does not fill up a stat sheet when he is in there. For DJ to get more minutes, he needs to earn them, either at practice, or in his few game minutes. We all like what we see in him, but there are reasons he is not playing. All three posts need to watch the fouls. And all three posts need to learn how to make a free throw. Fox is trying to bring all three along as well as he can, and I think it will be like last year, that all three will get minutes in the post, and hopefully all three will continue to improve. I can live with that.

SFCityBear said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I think Fox is playing this about the best way he can. Lars is slow reacting, but he is not a compete stiff in most matchups. He can do a few good things at both ends, and will play a few minutes.Fox has 3 options in the post, and all three have their good points and bad points. Kelly is a good rebounder, scorer, defender, but also slow and bit clumsy, and doesn't always play his hardest, IMO. Thorpe is athletic, but very raw. He does not fill up a stat sheet when he is in there. For DJ to get more minutes, he needs to earn them, either at practice, or in his few game minutes. We all like what we see in him, but there are reasons he is not playing. All three posts need to watch the fouls. And all three posts need to learn how to make a free throw. Fox is trying to bring all three along as well as he can, and I think it will be like last year, that all three will get minutes in the post, and hopefully all three will continue to improve. I can live with that.

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too early to judge for Lars. He's 3-4 in the season

besides his hands, etc., the thing I think he needs to improve on right away is keeping his hands straight up on defense in the post. He has a bad habit of holding his hands at an angle, so when a player shoots, they jump up into his hands for an instant foul. He did it again in the Nicholls game, but they didn't call it.

That is just a fundamental that has nothing to do with hands, quickness, speed, strength, skills

Not on board with DJ having to "earn" his minutes. Don't see what Lars has done to earn his. Lars has received more minutes and has failed to produce. Would like to see what DJ does with the same amount of minutes.

I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

RedlessWardrobe said:

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Not on board with DJ having to "earn" his minutes. Don't see what Lars has done to earn his. Lars has received more minutes and has failed to produce. Would like to see what DJ does with the same amount of minutes.

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Clearly Fox has seen the two far more than we have. I assume the two go up against each other daily in practice, so the evaluation as to who has earned the minutes shouldn't be too difficult.

SFCityBear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

---

Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

---

I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

---

to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

---

There was one play early on where Lars set pick for Bradley, and rolled perfectly to the basket. Both defenders went to defending Bradley, and left Lars, but Bradley either didn't seethe wide-open Lars, or decided to go it alone and either missed the tightly guarded shot, or lost the ball, I don't remember which, but either way it was disappointing. Pick and roll is one of the most fundamental plays in basketball, and players should be familiar with it, starting in high school or earlier. So far in three games, I've seen it executed well by Cal maybe once or twice. Especially with Bradley. He can score in so many ways, he should know he is going to draw both defenders to him, and Lars (or Kelly or Thorpe, etc) is going to be open 75% of the time, if he runs it right. Bradley is not a selfish player, and he tries to set people up, but sometimes I think he gets a little disgusted, and tries to bull his way to the basket on his own. Lars, as slow-reacting as he is, has learned a fair amount, and he can make wide open shots. He is not a shot creator, save for that baby hook, but he can make a layup. Just have to get him open. I'd also say that these are early games with very few practice sessions, and I'd expect the team to look a whole lot better 2-3 weeks from now.

---

But really, low post players are rarely wide open - Lars needs to be able to make at least a partially contested shot. I also think that Lars needs to know what he's going to do with the ball before he gets it. He's apparently not experienced enough decide once he has the ball, so before he puts his hand up for the ball, he's gotta know that he's going to immediately take the jump hook (or pass back out or whatever) regardless. It may miss or get blocked, but at least he has a chance to draw a foul. And for God's sake, put a shoulder into the defender occasionally!

As far as Kelly goes, I thought he did a good job getting leaner from year-1 to year-2, but I don't see any further improvement this year and that has to affect his quickness and endurance.

BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

Agreed. Posting up Lars is just stupid basketball. It is a low percentage play for a low percentage shooter to try to make 2 points. He needs to be used like Monty used Thurman on offense: he is there for interior defense and rebounding so the defense needs to put a body on him but if you leave him alone we will pass to him and he will dunk it. He can also provide an off-ball screen to free up a shooter. Period.

calumnus said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

Agreed. Posting up Lars is just stupid basketball. It is a low percentage play for a low percentage shooter to try to make 2 points. He needs to be used like Monty used Thurman on offense: he is there for interior defense and rebounding so the defense needs to put a body on him but if you leave him alone we will pass to him and he will dunk it. He can also provide an off-ball screen to free up a shooter. Period.

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actually I thought Monty mis-used Thurman his senior year. Thurman can actually shoot a 10 footer pretty reliably. I remember him hitting several jumpers in the second half of game vs USC. But it's clear that was not in the game plan in any other game, who am I to question Monty?

After college, Thurman went to an overseas pro team and did extremely well offensively

He is an example, who I thought would NEVER make a significant contribution to the team after watching him in his freshmen and sophomore year as he had such slow feet, and didn't look to have much potential.

That's one reason I don't ever write off a big for those reasons until their junior season

HoopDreams said:

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> ..thurman..

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back from overseas for a couple years Thurmin4tor lives the in bay area, married, and courtside in Haas now and again [absent covid]..

BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

calumnus said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

Agreed. Posting up Lars is just stupid basketball. It is a low percentage play for a low percentage shooter to try to make 2 points. He needs to be used like Monty used Thurman on offense: he is there for interior defense and rebounding so the defense needs to put a body on him but if you leave him alone we will pass to him and he will dunk it. He can also provide an off-ball screen to free up a shooter. Period.

---

The guy is shooting 67% with no post game, so whatever he is trying to do aside from completing a post play, it is working, so why insist he have a post game to be able to play? He may learn it, he may not. If he can give Cal 12-15 minutes, score 6-7 points and get 4-5 rebounds and play acceptable D, that is enough for me for this year. I'd like to see him cut down on TOs.

HearstMining said:

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SFCityBear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

---

Hope that's the reason he isn't playing (hope the illness is minor.) I really, really, don't want to keep singling out Lars, I know he's trying his best, but the reality is the game is just too fast for him. Its frustrating because his skill set is decent, but time after time on both ends of the court he is just a second too slow to react. I've watched basketball a long time but I'm still not sure if this weakness can be corrected. Its been a full year. Unless that improves DJ has to get the minutes Lars has been getting for this team to succeed.

---

I agree and piling on is not nice for I am sure Lars is a dedicated Cal BB player doing his very best. But what you are talking about is what I call "twitch factor". For the most part either an athlete has it or doesn't. It is what makes that athlete look slow. The split second reaction time is just slower. The appearance is that the synapses are just not firing quickly. In sports it effects bat speed, running speed, ability to have orientation when in a spin, reacting to a rebound in traffic, etc. It is more than just speed. I guess you could call it reaction time if wanted. I am convinced Lars will get better with time but cannot imagine him being first string next year or the year after given tons of playing time this year. I would not argue for a minute that he will not get better, but I have seen little improvement in this twitch factor this year over last.

---

Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

---

I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

---

to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

---

There was one play early on where Lars set pick for Bradley, and rolled perfectly to the basket. Both defenders went to defending Bradley, and left Lars, but Bradley either didn't seethe wide-open Lars, or decided to go it alone and either missed the tightly guarded shot, or lost the ball, I don't remember which, but either way it was disappointing. Pick and roll is one of the most fundamental plays in basketball, and players should be familiar with it, starting in high school or earlier. So far in three games, I've seen it executed well by Cal maybe once or twice. Especially with Bradley. He can score in so many ways, he should know he is going to draw both defenders to him, and Lars (or Kelly or Thorpe, etc) is going to be open 75% of the time, if he runs it right. Bradley is not a selfish player, and he tries to set people up, but sometimes I think he gets a little disgusted, and tries to bull his way to the basket on his own. Lars, as slow-reacting as he is, has learned a fair amount, and he can make wide open shots. He is not a shot creator, save for that baby hook, but he can make a layup. Just have to get him open. I'd also say that these are early games with very few practice sessions, and I'd expect the team to look a whole lot better 2-3 weeks from now.

---

But really, low post players are rarely wide open - Lars needs to be able to make at least a partially contested shot. I also think that Lars needs to know what he's going to do with the ball before he gets it. He's apparently not experienced enough decide once he has the ball, so before he puts his hand up for the ball, he's gotta know that he's going to immediately take the jump hook (or pass back out or whatever) regardless. It may miss or get blocked, but at least he has a chance to draw a foul. And for God's sake, put a shoulder into the defender occasionally!

As far as Kelly goes, I thought he did a good job getting leaner from year-1 to year-2, but I don't see any further improvement this year and that has to affect his quickness and endurance.

---

I can agree with all of what you say. BTW, isn't his hook is a standard stationary or fade-away hook, not a jump hook? We have to remember this was three games in a short stretch with little preparation or practice. We need to see a lot more to evaluate the team.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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Not on board with DJ having to "earn" his minutes. Don't see what Lars has done to earn his. Lars has received more minutes and has failed to produce. Would like to see what DJ does with the same amount of minutes.

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In one of my previous posts, I presented the stats for both players. Based on only 3 games, DJ has produced much more than he did last season, and in my mind he's earned more minutes. But Lars has also greatly improved his output over last season, so it is hard for me to say DJ should take minutes away from Lars. Both of them are producing better than Kelly and Grant, but it is very early in the season, and those guys will come around. Unless DJ can cut his fouls way down from last season (6.7 per 40 minutes, which was not acceptable) he will be limited in his minutes, even if he keeps up his offensive performance.

SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

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If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

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Almost all of that statistical improvement should be expected based on the difference in quality of competition. Do you think it will be the same when we play top teams in conference?

SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

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The key stat you are missing, and I doubt it exists, is the percentage of turnovers vs post pass receptions. The eyeball test suggests it has not improved, but in all fairness to Lars, the attempted passes to him in the post have been atrocious low-percentage affairs so far this year.

Lars is not Leon Powe, and his teammates need to recognize that.

SFCityBear said:

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HearstMining said:

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SFCityBear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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oskidunker said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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MoragaBear said:

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Thorpe has been out sick. Sounds like he'll likely be back for ASU Thursday.

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Agree on all counts about Lars - hate to pile on but I think its time to invest playing time in other areas. Lars is a seven footer, but he plays like he's 6'8". Not trying to be funny, but most of his height is in his neck and head - not in his arms and shoulders.

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I cringe every time they try to force the ball in to him.

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to be fair, some of those passes were terrible

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But really, low post players are rarely wide open - Lars needs to be able to make at least a partially contested shot. I also think that Lars needs to know what he's going to do with the ball before he gets it. He's apparently not experienced enough decide once he has the ball, so before he puts his hand up for the ball, he's gotta know that he's going to immediately take the jump hook (or pass back out or whatever) regardless. It may miss or get blocked, but at least he has a chance to draw a foul. And for God's sake, put a shoulder into the defender occasionally!

As far as Kelly goes, I thought he did a good job getting leaner from year-1 to year-2, but I don't see any further improvement this year and that has to affect his quickness and endurance.

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I can agree with all of what you say. BTW, isn't his hook is a standard stationary or fade-away hook, not a jump hook? We have to remember this was three games in a short stretch with little preparation or practice. We need to see a lot more to evaluate the team.

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I think you're right, it's not a jump hook. Although in the last game, he was getting it slapped out of his hands before I could tell what type of shot he was taking.

SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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... Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

---

I mentioned Kelly's (lack of) leanness in another post and so far, it's one of the most disappointing things I've seen with this year's team. Players may have a ceiling on their ball handling or shooting ability, but damn it, unless you're injured/sick, fitness is purely a function of discipline and effort. I don't know if Kelly had health issues in the offseason or just excessive fondness for McDonalds or his mom's cooking. With COVID, this isn't a season where players can play their way into shape because practices will be focused on installing/improving defense and offensive sets.

It's probably too late for this season, but I hope at some point Fox tells Kelly, "Son, I'll see your @ss on the fire trail, five mornings a week".

OaktownBear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

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Almost all of that statistical improvement should be expected based on the difference in quality of competition. Do you think it will be the same when we play top teams in conference?

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I see your point, and the difference in the quality of competition is certainly a big factor, but I don't see how you can quantify it is "almost all" of the improvement shown by Lars. We can't dismiss the work a player puts in between seasons, the conditioning, the fundamentals, his shooting, and how much more of the coaching he has been able to absorb and put into use, even is he could not work with teammates due to the virus precautions. One area of improvement where the level competition matters very little is his free throw shooting percentage where he has gone from 49% to 75%. If he keeps that up, he will have greatly improved a valuable part of his game.

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

---

The key stat you are missing, and I doubt it exists, is the percentage of turnovers vs post pass receptions. The eyeball test suggests it has not improved, but in all fairness to Lars, the attempted passes to him in the post have been atrocious low-percentage affairs so far this year.

Lars is not Leon Powe, and his teammates need to recognize that.

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I agree with all you said. It's a team game, and too often we get into analyzing a player's abilities without thinking about how his teammates can make him a better player, or even have the opposite effect. If Lars had Jason Kidd setting him up and feeding him the ball, he would be a better-looking player, guaranteed. You have to give Lars the ball where the defender can't get at it, and give it to him in a position and rhythm which will give him an easier shot to make.

Lars is not Leon Powe. How true.

HearstMining said:

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SFCityBear said:

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... Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

---

I mentioned Kelly's (lack of) leanness in another post and so far, it's one of the most disappointing things I've seen with this year's team. Players may have a ceiling on their ball handling or shooting ability, but damn it, unless you're injured/sick, fitness is purely a function of discipline and effort. I don't know if Kelly had health issues in the offseason or just excessive fondness for McDonalds or his mom's cooking. With COVID, this isn't a season where players can play their way into shape because practices will be focused on installing/improving defense and offensive sets.

It's probably too late for this season, but I hope at some point Fox tells Kelly, "Son, I'll see your @ss on the fire trail, five mornings a week".

---

Ah,a man after my own heart. I few years ago, I used to debate with the youngsters on this board, who claimed the modern athletes were far better conditioned than those of us who played in the 1960s. Newell's Cal teams won many games just by being in better condition than Cal's opponents. To get in shape, they ran the hills up to Grizzly Peak and back which is a grueling run. The youngsters said the modern machines and training methods were superior. Still, I was seeing some players gassed after only a few minutes on the floor. With all the many timeouts in the modern game, compared to playing 40 minutes straight for Pete in a game where there were no commercial breaks, few if any substitutions, and very few timeouts (Newell sometimes didn't call even a single timeout in a game), how could these modern players get tired? I'm still not convinced that the best way to gaining stamina or endurance required for basketball is not to run, and run hills. A few years ago, I went to a game with a fellow 70+ year old Cal fan, and with Cal losing badly, he turned to me and said, "I wonder if they would be willing to give us uniforms and let us play in this game? I'm pretty sure we could last from one timeout to the next, without playing any worse than these kids."

SFCityBear said:

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Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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BC Calfan said:

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I'm fine with Lars being a space-eater, role player but he is far from a reliable 'throw it in to him in the post and let him go to work type of player'. 1) the entry pass has to be perfect and our team has trouble doing that 2) once he gets it, he's so mechanical that it's a low percentage shot. 3) the offense stalls and suffers because he's not a good passer if stuck.

Maybe Fox is trying to get him early season reps like when he started Joel last year. But at some point he's going to have to pull the plug. Lars post-up plays work....20% of the time? Less?

---

If we are going to trash Lars as a post player after seeing only a total of 31 minutes of basketball from him over 3 games, well, first there is this little comparison of Lars this season with last season:

FG%: last season 57%, this season 67%.
FT%: last season 49%, this season 75%
FG/40 minutes: last season 5.9, this season 7.7
FT/40 minutes: last season 1.7, this season 3.9
Rebs/40 minutes: last season 6.2, this season 9.0
Points/40 minutes: last season 8.3, this season 14.2

Want to see how he stacks up over the first three games against the three players you would rather see play the post than him?

Minutes/game: Grant 28, Kelly 22, Lars 10, Thorpe 6
2Pt FG%: Lars 67%, Thorpe 57%, Kelly 48%, Grant 43%
FT%: Grant 100%, Thorpe 100%, Lars 75%, Kelly 33%
2Pt FG/40 minutes: Thorpe 8.9, Lars 7.7, Kelly 6.2, Grant 1.4
FT/40 minutes: Thorpe 4.4, Lars 3.9, Grant 2.8, Kelly 2.5
Rebs/40 minutes: Thorpe 17.8, Kelly 12.3, Lars 9.0, Grant 8.0
Points/40 minutes: Thorpe 22.2, Kelly 14.8, Lars, 14.2, Grant 8.0

My point is that so far, Lars is producing more than last season. My other point is that you can't tell much from these 3 games, one game vs the team picked to finish last in the PAC12, and two teams not nearly good enough to play in the PAC12, so I'd caution you not to make too much of 3 games. And what we have is a lot of incomplete players vying for time in the post. Our best scorer in the paint is Bradley. The only one of the 4 bigs who has proved he can play 30 minutes is Grant, but he is a face up player, and not very effective with his back to the basket. Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

---

The key stat you are missing, and I doubt it exists, is the percentage of turnovers vs post pass receptions. The eyeball test suggests it has not improved, but in all fairness to Lars, the attempted passes to him in the post have been atrocious low-percentage affairs so far this year.

Lars is not Leon Powe, and his teammates need to recognize that.

---

I agree with all you said. It's a team game, and too often we get into analyzing a player's abilities without thinking about how his teammates can make him a better player, or even have the opposite effect. If Lars had Jason Kidd setting him up and feeding him the ball, he would be a better-looking player, guaranteed. You have to give Lars the ball where the defender can't get at it, and give it to him in a position and rhythm which will give him an easier shot to make.

Lars is not Leon Powe. How true.

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perfect example of getting the ball to a player in a place he can do something positive, was the play where bradley drove, and then made a difficult pass to Lars as he was just crossing the 3 point line. The pass was impossible for him to catch as it was behind him, but even if he caught it what was Lars going to do with the ball 18 feet from the basket

yeah, I know bradley was trying to execute a pick and roll, and kudos for him being unselfish, but a pick and roll to Lars should be when he is 5-8 feet from the hoop

HoopDreams said:

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yeah, I know bradley was trying to execute a pick and roll, and kudos for him being unselfish, but a pick and roll to Lars should be when he is 5-8 feet from the hoop

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Thank you, thank you, thank you. I hadn't caught that until you brought this to our attention. This really captures the challenge that players and staff are facing with player development and recruiting.

Most offenses these days initiate the PnR with a Pick much closer to the three point line with a longer roll or more often a roll to the mid post and another pass. This is well suited to a mobile and long armed 'big' that can cover that much space offensively. That is NOT Lars. That might be Antecevich or even Thorpe or Kelly - but probably not against PF defenses. It could have been Rabb.

Which comes back to matching your strategy to match your talent. From what I've seen so far this season - we're not doing much offensively to set up a PnR like HD describes. However, I remember Trent Johnson doing this at Furd, when he had Lopez twins. Maybe that's why they've been starting Larz - but it just isn't happening at this stage of the season with the current lineup.

Hmmm . . , ,

SFCityBear said:

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HearstMining said:

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SFCityBear said:

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... Kelly can give you only 20 minutes, because he runs out of gas or runs out of fouls. Did you see him at the time out last night? He sat down and was gasping for air. He is really out of shape. Thorpe was injured in high school, and maybe Fox was careful not to play him too much last season. I understand he has been ill recently. In any case, Fox is not playing Lars or Thorpe many minutes - Lars 10 minutes and DJ only 6 so far. These guys may not be able to give us more than that, but they are essential to give us at least 20 minutes between them, because even if Grant plays 35-40 minutes, Kelly can not give you much more than 20. We need all of them to be able to compete in the PAC12.

---

I mentioned Kelly's (lack of) leanness in another post and so far, it's one of the most disappointing things I've seen with this year's team. Players may have a ceiling on their ball handling or shooting ability, but damn it, unless you're injured/sick, fitness is purely a function of discipline and effort. I don't know if Kelly had health issues in the offseason or just excessive fondness for McDonalds or his mom's cooking. With COVID, this isn't a season where players can play their way into shape because practices will be focused on installing/improving defense and offensive sets.

It's probably too late for this season, but I hope at some point Fox tells Kelly, "Son, I'll see your @ss on the fire trail, five mornings a week".

---

Ah,a man after my own heart. I few years ago, I used to debate with the youngsters on this board, who claimed the modern athletes were far better conditioned than those of us who played in the 1960s. Newell's Cal teams won many games just by being in better condition than Cal's opponents. To get in shape, they ran the hills up to Grizzly Peak and back which is a grueling run. The youngsters said the modern machines and training methods were superior. Still, I was seeing some players gassed after only a few minutes on the floor. With all the many timeouts in the modern game, compared to playing 40 minutes straight for Pete in a game where there were no commercial breaks, few if any substitutions, and very few timeouts (Newell sometimes didn't call even a single timeout in a game), how could these modern players get tired? I'm still not convinced that the best way to gaining stamina or endurance required for basketball is not to run, and run hills. A few years ago, I went to a game with a fellow 70+ year old Cal fan, and with Cal losing badly, he turned to me and said, "I wonder if they would be willing to give us uniforms and let us play in this game? I'm pretty sure we could last from one timeout to the next, without playing any worse than these kids.

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SFCity, I know you question the fitness of some Cal players, but I want to stress that my comment was specific to Kelly. He came into the program with what can be charitably described as baby fat and did a good job of trimming some of it off between his first and second years. I just want to see the trend continue. I mentioned the fire trail because that's where I came to appreciate running, almost 45 years ago, and dropped ~15 lbs in the process.

The players had a restricted offseason and shortened pre season to stay and get in shape

Give them some time