Returning to discussion of the C.S. era

1,834 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by SFCALBear72
BearBint
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2019-20 https://calbears.com/documents/2019/11/9//Cal_WBB_Combined_Stats.pdf?id=20353 (31 games; 12 wins, three of them conference: 12th in Pac-12)

2020-21 https://calbears.com/documents/2021/7/12//Cal_2020_21_Combined_Stats_27_.pdf?id=24621 (17 games; one win, which was conference: 12th in Pac-12)

2021-22 https://calbears.com/documents/2022/3/8/Cal_Cumulative_Stats_19_.pdf (24 games; 11 wins, one of them conference: 11th in Pac-12, I think; finding certain info on the Cal site is not easy)

2022-23 https://calbears.com/sports/womens-basketball/stats/?path=wbball (30 games; 13 wins, four of them conference: 10th in Pac-12)

(Note that Cal didn't win more than four games away from home in any of the four seasons. It takes more than great recruits to learn how to play together, and with confidence, especially when the roster keeps shifting, and when one season is more of an extended practice session.)

Fellow Cal WBB fans, I, too, would love to see a much improved team with lots of wins, but I don't understand some of the complaints about Charmin Smith. Her second season was godawful: only 17 games, plus the constant fear of illness and the constant testing, the sudden postponements. Her two most experienced players were sophomores, along with a string of freshmen and others, including walk-ons, many of whom were injured, ill (I assume), and/or works in progress. (Patiently instructing and supporting frightened, depressed adolescents is no joke; I speak from experience, and Charmin admitted as much during a Zoom visit.) Is slow, steady--I hope--improvement such a terrible thing? If winning is all, then I guess it is.

I'd be curious to see what Cal's SoS is this week; where is the best place to find such info? As of yesterday, Massey says 46, with a ranking of 82: https://masseyratings.com/cbw/ncaa-d1/ratings
"Don't get distracted, myself. Don't get distracted." Self-talk from a young relative
Schroeder71
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I do not understand your reasoning. Every head coach and college basketball program had to deal with the Covid situation. The Washington State coach has been there 5 years rather than Charmin Smith's 4 years. The WSU HC had her program qualifying for the NCAA Tournament in years 3-4-5. Other HCs came from outside the conference like Utah's & Colorado's and their teams have been in the NCAAs for at least a couple of years. I just gave you three non-basketball powerhouse programs that have rebuilt their programs into top 25 programs.

I did not give you Stanford, UCLA, Oregon or Washington which have been final four programs. You could make the case that Arizona & Oregon State built up their teams under their current HCs, too. USC will be there next season when they bring in the #1 recruit in the nation in Sierra Canyon's Ju Ju Watkins to mesh her offense with
their fabulous defense.

The only teams that are floundering right now are ASU (1st year HC), Cal (4th year HC) & Washington (2nd year HC). The Huskies improved substantially in the second year, winning 7 conference games and might make the WNIT with a winning overall record. Washington had four of their players earn Honorable Mention honors compared to Cal's two HM selections.

SFCALBear72
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I would add the turnover in assistant coaches during Charmin's tenure to your analysis as well.

April Phiilips - hired by Lindsay in April 2019; stayed on to be part Charmin's staff until April 2021; left for 2nd stint at Arizona.

Kelly Cole - joined the Bears' staff in June 2021; returned home to East Coast after 2021-22 season to be closer to family.

Wendale Farrow - originally hired by Lindsay in 2016; stayed on to be part of Charmin's staff; left in 2021 to join Lindsay at USC when she returned to college coaching.

Current staff: Heidi Heintz; Pauk Reed; Eliza Pierre. Kai Felton moved to Special Assistant to Head Coach due to NCAA rules about having only 3 assistant coaches. That limitation changes this fall when expanded coaching staffs are permissible.
SFCALBear72
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Schroeder71 said:

I do not understand your reasoning. Every head coach and college basketball program had to deal with the Covid situation. The Washington State coach has been there 5 years rather than Charmin Smith's 4 years. The WSU HC had her program qualifying for the NCAA Tournament in years 3-4-5. Other HCs came from outside the conference like Utah's & Colorado's and their teams have been in the NCAAs for at least a couple of years. I just gave you three non-basketball powerhouse programs that have rebuilt their programs into top 25 programs.

I did not give you Stanford, UCLA, Oregon or Washington which have been final four programs. You could make the case that Arizona & Oregon State built up their teams under their current HCs, too. USC will be there next season when they bring in the #1 recruit in the nation in Sierra Canyon's Ju Ju Watkins to mesh her offense with
their fabulous defense.

The only teams that are floundering right now are ASU (1st year HC), Cal (4th year HC) & Washington (2nd year HC). The Huskies improved substantially in the second year, winning 7 conference games and might make the WNIT with a winning overall record. Washington had four of their players earn Honorable Mention honors compared to Cal's two HM selections.


Experience as a head coach matters.


Look at Kamie Ethridge's resume:

Her first year of coaching was at Northern Illinois
5 years as an assistant at Vanderbilt
18 years as an assistant at Kansas State
4 years as head coach at Northern Colorado

JR Payne at Colorado

13 seasons as a head coach; 7 years at CU; also stints at Santa Clara and Southern Utah.
Assistant coaching experience at Gonzaga (with Kelly Graves as HC); Boise State and Santa Clara.
annarborbear
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Schroeder71 said:

I do not understand your reasoning. Every head coach and college basketball program had to deal with the Covid situation. The Washington State coach has been there 5 years rather than Charmin Smith's 4 years. The WSU HC had her program qualifying for the NCAA Tournament in years 3-4-5. Other HCs came from outside the conference like Utah's & Colorado's and their teams have been in the NCAAs for at least a couple of years. I just gave you three non-basketball powerhouse programs that have rebuilt their programs into top 25 programs.

I did not give you Stanford, UCLA, Oregon or Washington which have been final four programs. You could make the case that Arizona & Oregon State built up their teams under their current HCs, too. USC will be there next season when they bring in the #1 recruit in the nation in Sierra Canyon's Ju Ju Watkins to mesh her offense with
their fabulous defense.

The only teams that are floundering right now are ASU (1st year HC), Cal (4th year HC) & Washington (2nd year HC). The Huskies improved substantially in the second year, winning 7 conference games and might make the WNIT with a winning overall record. Washington had four of their players earn Honorable Mention honors compared to Cal's two HM selections.


The Huskies are also bringing in three more ESPN Top 100 recruits next year. I guess that they have decided to actually perform rather than making excuses.
annarborbear
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SFCALBear72 said:

Schroeder71 said:

I do not understand your reasoning. Every head coach and college basketball program had to deal with the Covid situation. The Washington State coach has been there 5 years rather than Charmin Smith's 4 years. The WSU HC had her program qualifying for the NCAA Tournament in years 3-4-5. Other HCs came from outside the conference like Utah's & Colorado's and their teams have been in the NCAAs for at least a couple of years. I just gave you three non-basketball powerhouse programs that have rebuilt their programs into top 25 programs.

I did not give you Stanford, UCLA, Oregon or Washington which have been final four programs. You could make the case that Arizona & Oregon State built up their teams under their current HCs, too. USC will be there next season when they bring in the #1 recruit in the nation in Sierra Canyon's Ju Ju Watkins to mesh her offense with
their fabulous defense.

The only teams that are floundering right now are ASU (1st year HC), Cal (4th year HC) & Washington (2nd year HC). The Huskies improved substantially in the second year, winning 7 conference games and might make the WNIT with a winning overall record. Washington had four of their players earn Honorable Mention honors compared to Cal's two HM selections.


Experience as a head coach matters.


Look at Kamie Ethridge's resume:

Her first year of coaching was at Northern Illinois
5 years as an assistant at Vanderbilt
18 years as an assistant at Kansas State
4 years as head coach at Northern Colorado

JR Payne at Colorado

13 seasons as a head coach; 7 years at CU; also stints at Santa Clara and Southern Utah.
Assistant coaching experience at Gonzaga (with Kelly Graves as HC); Boise State and Santa Clara.

Take a look at how Ethridge did in her first four years as a head coach at Northern Colorado. Didn't take her long to prove herself a winning coach.

But if the argument is that we should have hired a more experienced coach, I can agree with that.
wvitbear
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Ethridge may be the only coach shorter than Rueck. Usually, you think a coach gets experience by playing. These two make you wonder.
annarborbear
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wvitbear said:

Ethridge may be the only coach shorter than Rueck. Usually, you think a coach gets experience by playing. These two make you wonder.
Take a look at Ethridge's playing background. She was a key player at Texas and was eventually on a US Olympic team. Rueck, on the other hand, is definitely an anomaly.
annarborbear
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SFCALBear72 said:

I would add the turnover in assistant coaches during Charmin's tenure to your analysis as well.

April Phiilips - hired by Lindsay in April 2019; stayed on to be part Charmin's staff until April 2021; left for 2nd stint at Arizona.

Kelly Cole - joined the Bears' staff in June 2021; returned home to East Coast after 2021-22 season to be closer to family.

Wendale Farrow - originally hired by Lindsay in 2016; stayed on to be part of Charmin's staff; left in 2021 to join Lindsay at USC when she returned to college coaching.

Current staff: Heidi Heintz; Pauk Reed; Eliza Pierre. Kai Felton moved to Special Assistant to Head Coach due to NCAA rules about having only 3 assistant coaches. That limitation changes this fall when expanded coaching staffs are permissible.
Last time I looked, it is a head coach's responsibility to select, to properly utilize, and to retain a competent group of assistants.
SFCALBear72
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annarborbear said:

SFCALBear72 said:

I would add the turnover in assistant coaches during Charmin's tenure to your analysis as well.

April Phiilips - hired by Lindsay in April 2019; stayed on to be part Charmin's staff until April 2021; left for 2nd stint at Arizona.

Kelly Cole - joined the Bears' staff in June 2021; returned home to East Coast after 2021-22 season to be closer to family.

Wendale Farrow - originally hired by Lindsay in 2016; stayed on to be part of Charmin's staff; left in 2021 to join Lindsay at USC when she returned to college coaching.

Current staff: Heidi Heintz; Pauk Reed; Eliza Pierre. Kai Felton moved to Special Assistant to Head Coach due to NCAA rules about having only 3 assistant coaches. That limitation changes this fall when expanded coaching staffs are permissible.
Last time I looked, it is a head coach's responsibility to select, to properly utilize, and to retain a competent group of assistants.
Your point? She was to forbid them from leaving? lol.

Note: When April Phillips left to go back to Arizona, she only stayed there two months before moving on to Texas. Shame on Adia Barnes.
annarborbear
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SFCALBear72 said:

annarborbear said:

SFCALBear72 said:

I would add the turnover in assistant coaches during Charmin's tenure to your analysis as well.

April Phiilips - hired by Lindsay in April 2019; stayed on to be part Charmin's staff until April 2021; left for 2nd stint at Arizona.

Kelly Cole - joined the Bears' staff in June 2021; returned home to East Coast after 2021-22 season to be closer to family.

Wendale Farrow - originally hired by Lindsay in 2016; stayed on to be part of Charmin's staff; left in 2021 to join Lindsay at USC when she returned to college coaching.

Current staff: Heidi Heintz; Pauk Reed; Eliza Pierre. Kai Felton moved to Special Assistant to Head Coach due to NCAA rules about having only 3 assistant coaches. That limitation changes this fall when expanded coaching staffs are permissible.
Last time I looked, it is a head coach's responsibility to select, to properly utilize, and to retain a competent group of assistants.
Your point? She was to forbid them from leaving? lol.

Note: When April Phillips left to go back to Arizona, she only stayed there two months before moving on to Texas. Shame on Adia Barnes.

This didn't "happen" to Charmin. She is in charge of the program. She has to pick the right people, and pick solid replacements if anyone should leave. It is a basic part of the job. And you can't win unless you can do it. Barnes replaced April with someone even better. That is why she is winning.
Schroeder71
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My main point is that ten of the 12 teams in the Pac 12 have made or are in the process of making measurable progress with their respective programs. Cal & ASU are the only ones spinning their wheels. .The ASU coach guided Delaware to their league championship before taking the Pac 12 HC job. I would imagine that she will lead the Sun Devils to progress steadily as well. In her 5th year at the helm, HC Charmin Smith had better field a team w/ a .500 record in the Pac12 or look for a job elsewhere. She is super fortunate to still be the Cal HC with her track record.

If any of the rest of us had performed like that for four consecutive years, we would expect to lose our jobs.
It's time to quit making excuses. It's time to stand up and be responsible for your actions running the Cal women's basketball program! GO BEARS!
stu
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I think recruiting is our principal issue. IMHO our 2019 class was as good as could be expected under the circumstances, our 2020 class looked good at the time but didn't pan out, and our 2021 and 2022 classes gave us only one Pac-12 difference-maker.

I don't know if resources are the problem but I'd like to see more emphasis on international recruiting. Cal has a stellar reputation so if Washington State can do it we should be able to do it better.

SFCALBear72
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stu said:

I think recruiting is our principal issue. IMHO our 2019 class was as good as could be expected under the circumstances, our 2020 class looked good at the time but didn't pan out, and our 2021 and 2022 classes gave us only one Pac-12 difference-maker.

I don't know if resources are the problem but I'd like to see more emphasis on international recruiting. Cal has a stellar reputation so if Washington State can do it we should be able to do it better.


Maybe Lulu Laditan-Twidale's arrival from Australia this Fall will help create an Australian pipeline. Perhaps Penina Davidson could give an "assist" with potential recruits from New Zealand. Likewise, Sara Anastasieska who is from Sydney.

With FaceTime and Zoom calls plus YouTube, international recruiting has become more manageable and affordable.
Schroeder71
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I agree with both of you that international players can help fill the void in recruiting along with using the transfer portal to bring in more experienced players that can provide immediate help. The biggest need appears to be size inside. Ideally two tall (6-3 or 6-4 at a minimum) posts could fill the voids left by the departures of Peanut Tuitele (6-1) & Evelien Lutje Schipholt (6-2). When does the transfer window re-open? I think someone told me already but I failed to write it down. Sorry. GO BEARS!
SFCALBear72
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March 14.

60-day window. March 14-May 12.

May 12 is not a signing deadline. It's the final day to enter the portal and qualify for the one-time transfer exception.

ncbears
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Marianne Stanley got 4 years.
Caren Horstmeyer got 5 years.

1996-97 Marianne Stanley 6-21 2-16 (10th - Pac-10)
1997-98 Marianne Stanley 6-22 2-16 (T9th -Pac-10)
1998-99 Marianne Stanley 12-15 6-12 (T6th - Pac-10)
1999-00 Marianne Stanley 11-17 6-12 (8th - Pac-10)
2000-01 Caren Horstmeyer 12-16 8-10 (T6th - Pac-10)
2001-02 Caren Horstmeyer 7-21 2-16 (9th - Pac-10)
2002-03 Caren Horstmeyer 10-19 5-13 (9th- Pac-10)
2003-04 Caren Horstmeyer 12-17 4-14 (9th-Pac-10)
2004-05 Caren Horstmeyer 11-18 4-14 (8th-Pac-10)
annarborbear
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ncbears said:

Marianne Stanley got 4 years.
Caren Horstmeyer got 5 years.

1996-97 Marianne Stanley 6-21 2-16 (10th - Pac-10)
1997-98 Marianne Stanley 6-22 2-16 (T9th -Pac-10)
1998-99 Marianne Stanley 12-15 6-12 (T6th - Pac-10)
1999-00 Marianne Stanley 11-17 6-12 (8th - Pac-10)
2000-01 Caren Horstmeyer 12-16 8-10 (T6th - Pac-10)
2001-02 Caren Horstmeyer 7-21 2-16 (9th - Pac-10)
2002-03 Caren Horstmeyer 10-19 5-13 (9th- Pac-10)
2003-04 Caren Horstmeyer 12-17 4-14 (9th-Pac-10)
2004-05 Caren Horstmeyer 11-18 4-14 (8th-Pac-10)
Maybe that's it. Some people are nostalgic for the good old days.
Bobodeluxe
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I see a pattern.
BearBint
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Maybe Gottlieb would like to return, and then all the former L.G. bashers can have a treat. (Doubt she'd come back, though.)
"Don't get distracted, myself. Don't get distracted." Self-talk from a young relative
HoopDreams
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I don't know anything about Stanley or her Cal teams, but pretty sure WBB and the Pac12 we're different back then

My guess was it was Stanford and the 11 little sisters of the poor
stu
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Stanley was a luminary as a player and coach in the early days of college WBB. IRRC the big thing at Cal is she was paid the same as the men's coach, which I think was a first. It didn't work out, possibly because WBB was catching on and other schools were committing more resources to it.
wvitbear
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Stanley was the most obnoxious coach we ever had. She almost got fired for yelling th N word at a bunch of african Americans who were playing in the gym she was using. Was always bitter after the USC dispute when they didn't pay her the same salary as George Raveling.

SFCALBear72
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HoopDreams said:

I don't know anything about Stanley or her Cal teams, but pretty sure WBB and the Pac12 we're different back then

My guess was it was Stanford and the 11 little sisters of the poor

Only nine sisters back then.

"Sister Utah and Sister Colorado joined later." lol.
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