Ok, I'm sure most of you have read the news already "https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-big-ten-adding-oregon-and-washington-leaving-pac-12-with-uncertain-future-163742534.html"

From the article: The Big Ten is in the final stages of negotiating an expansion to 18 teams and adding the Universities of Oregon and Washington, industry sources told Yahoo Sports.
The move adds a Pacific Northwest presence to the arrival of USC and UCLA while bringing two known football brands to the Big Ten's broadcast offerings.
Both schools are expected to agree to a cut rate perhaps as low as 50 percent of the Big Ten's media revenue that could reach $65 million/year per institution. That is still more than the Pac-12's proposed media deal with Apple TV+, which is estimated to be in the $20-25 million range.
While contracts are not signed, deals have been agreed to in principle. Big Ten presidents met Friday morning to discuss expansion and settled concerns about increased travel and the logistics of an 18-team conference.
After a roller coaster of exploration and negotiation across the week, the Ducks and Huskies will exit the Pac-12, leaving the 108-year-old league with an uncertain future.

Of course we don't know how it will play out ...

But if Cal is no longer in a P5 conference, it's great news for women's basketball. Suddenly the lack of a practice facility fades a bit, and the academic side increases in importance.

Cal would have a recruiting advantage on any MWC or Big Sky school, it seems to me, and would be positioned to win a lot of games and get to the tournament.

It's also quite possible that football would be de-emphasized, given its expense, and that Cal would try to become a basketball school, which is a lot cheaper than football.

Stanford also plays into this, but I could see Stanford going independent. They don't need the money.

Yes, I don't disagree....but wonder what that means for the stadium and its debt?

I think the biggest problem is that our women's basketball program currently loses $3 million per year and has to be subsidized by football revenues. If we go to a lower league, eventually we will have to reduce expenses,

Just took a look at the UC Davis athletic department financials. Every sport at UCD loses money, including football and men's basketball. Women's basketball loses $1.7 million. There is very little ticket sales revenue in any sport. They survive on $25 million per year in student fees (I guess there is some type of fee every student pays) and on $8 million in institutional support. So in the end, at whatever scale you operate, the bills come due.

annarborbear said:

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Just took a look at the UC Davis athletic department financials. Every sport at UCD loses money, including football and men's basketball. Women's basketball loses $1.7 million. There is very little ticket sales revenue in any sport. They survive on $25 million per year in student fees (I guess there is some type of fee every student pays) and on $8 million in institutional support. So in the end, at whatever scale you operate, the bills come due.

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$25 million in student fees divided by 35,000 students is about $700 per student, IMHO quite a load.

Any chance we and Stanford end up in the Big Ten (to make it the Big Twenty)?

stu said:

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Any chance we and Stanford end up in the Big Ten (to make it the Big Twenty)?

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I think that is highly possible. B1G Presidents like to hang out with schools that add to their academic prestige, along with making money. But TV Networks now seem in charge of college sports. And who knows what our former 'friends" at USC, UCLA, UW and Oregon will have to say.

stu said:

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annarborbear said:

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Just took a look at the UC Davis athletic department financials. Every sport at UCD loses money, including football and men's basketball. Women's basketball loses $1.7 million. There is very little ticket sales revenue in any sport. They survive on $25 million per year in student fees (I guess there is some type of fee every student pays) and on $8 million in institutional support. So in the end, at whatever scale you operate, the bills come due.

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$25 million in student fees divided by 35,000 students is about $700 per student, IMHO quite a load.

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At UC San Diego, the ICA Student Fee to support intercollegiate athletic teams is $650 per year.

Well, this is changing faster than I can keep up with -- we're now in the Pac-4:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/sport/oregon-washington-big-ten/index.html

My preference would be to see us end up either in the Big Ten or in a West Coast version of the Ivy League along with Stanford and most of the other UC campuses.

The Ivy model is a tough one to get to. They provide no athletic scholarships, give non-athletic scholarships only on the basis of financial need, and then subsidize their athletic program out of their endowment income, Stanford could do it, but we would have to go with student fees like UCD and UCSD, while also cutting lots of sports or converting them to club-level programs. But in this new world of professional college sports, whatever we do is going to be tough.

R.I.P. Pac-12 Conference (and earlier iterations) 1915-2024. I think because of the national student debt crisis there will be immense pressure to lower tuitions without more money from governments. With no TV money coming in and attendance and donations going down even further because of being in some new unfamiliar junior conference, our athletic dept will be bleeding money profusely. So I think Cal and many other athletically lesser known schools will permanently terminate all intercollegiate athletics in the next several years. USC, Ohio State, etc. will hang on for a little longer, but their time will come too. In any case the UC board of regents will need to pay off our stadium debt, there is no way that Cal Berkeley much less our athletic dept can possibly pay it off.

annarborbear said:

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stu said:

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Any chance we and Stanford end up in the Big Ten (to make it the Big Twenty)?

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I think that is highly possible. B1G Presidents like to hang out with schools that add to their academic prestige, along with making money. But TV Networks now seem in charge of college sports. And who knows what our former 'friends" at USC, UCLA, UW and Oregon will have to say.

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Let me know when this "academic prestige" thing happens anywhere, anytime...
The BIG wants to rationalize Washington as one of the better public schools in the nation? Sure, let's go with that. And the spin on Oregon? The other moves by the BIG: Penn St, certainly a solid public, same with Rutgers and Maryland...oh, and I almost forgot the Ivy of the Plains, Nebraska...
Texas to the SEC-isn't that maybe the top school that has moved? Without checking the numbers, I think Washington has a higher ranking the last few years?

mbBear said:

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annarborbear said:

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stu said:

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Any chance we and Stanford end up in the Big Ten (to make it the Big Twenty)?

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I think that is highly possible. B1G Presidents like to hang out with schools that add to their academic prestige, along with making money. But TV Networks now seem in charge of college sports. And who knows what our former 'friends" at USC, UCLA, UW and Oregon will have to say.

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Let me know when this "academic prestige" thing happens anywhere, anytime...
The BIG wants to rationalize Washington as one of the better public schools in the nation? Sure, let's go with that. And the spin on Oregon? The other moves by the BIG: Penn St, certainly a solid public, same with Rutgers and Maryland...oh, and I almost forgot the Ivy of the Plains, Nebraska...
Texas to the SEC-isn't that maybe the top school that has moved? Without checking the numbers, I think Washington has a higher ranking the last few years?

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"We like their uniforms and color combinations. Looks good on TV. Plus, they have a rich Uncle."

SFCALBear72 said:

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mbBear said:

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annarborbear said:

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stu said:

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Any chance we and Stanford end up in the Big Ten (to make it the Big Twenty)?

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I think that is highly possible. B1G Presidents like to hang out with schools that add to their academic prestige, along with making money. But TV Networks now seem in charge of college sports. And who knows what our former 'friends" at USC, UCLA, UW and Oregon will have to say.

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Let me know when this "academic prestige" thing happens anywhere, anytime...
The BIG wants to rationalize Washington as one of the better public schools in the nation? Sure, let's go with that. And the spin on Oregon? The other moves by the BIG: Penn St, certainly a solid public, same with Rutgers and Maryland...oh, and I almost forgot the Ivy of the Plains, Nebraska...
Texas to the SEC-isn't that maybe the top school that has moved? Without checking the numbers, I think Washington has a higher ranking the last few years?

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"We like their uniforms and color combinations. Looks good on TV. Plus, they have a rich Uncle."

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Yep...and people east of the Mississippi know who they are...

The B1G took Washington and Oregon for TV money. But I spent a lot of time around the Big Ten, and they do value highly anything that increases their academic standing. So the presidents, not the AD's, will value that, and it will be our best asset in hoping to get an offer of membership as the dust settles.

annarborbear said:

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The Ivy model is a tough one to get to. They provide no athletic scholarships, give non-athletic scholarships only on the basis of financial need, and then subsidize their athletic program out of their endowment income, Stanford could do it, but we would have to go with student fees like UCD and UCSD, while also cutting lots of sports or converting them to club-level programs. But in this new world of professional college sports, whatever we do is going to be tough.

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Well Harvard spends about 30 million annually on its athletics...about average for the Ivy League. Penn leads the pack with a 41 million dollar budget, Yale second with 37 million. Harvard offers 42 varsity sports, more than any other D1 school. They don't have to pay for athletic scholarships since all scholarships are need based (families with incomes below 85k are not expected to contribute at all to costs). Obviously income (ticket sales/tv) are much more limited than those of larger schools.

There is a ten year TV deal (signed in 2018) with ESPN to air every football and men's and women's basketball on ESPN+ in addition to many other sports. I'm not sure how much income they receive from that or ticket sales. but I'm sure it's nothing like the majors.

I do know that alumni giving is a big part of expenditures as well. At Harvard each team also has a "friends" group that raises money for each sport to support travel costs, equipment, etc.

A few years ago I was involved in the campaign to raise 2.2 million to endow the coaching position for women's lacrosse. https://alumni.harvard.edu/community/stories/team-spirit-drives-effort-to-support-womens-lacrosse

There's also a long list of other endowments for other coaching positions which I assume greatly helps defray expenses: https://gocrimson.com/sports/2020/5/5/information-support-endowed.aspx. I know Cal currently has endowed football, field hockey, men's tennis and men's golf...not sure what the amount endowed is. Certainly the men's football coach's pay exceeds any funds generated by endowment. Ivy salaries are not so out of control as they are at other D1 schools either. Here's what I found as an example:

"The sports at Yale are led by 37 head coaches, 17 of whom coach male teams, 19 of whom spearhead women's teams, and 1 of whom leads a coed team. Women's team head coaches make an average of $125,750, men's team head coaches make about $221,258 each year, and the head coach of the coed teams gets paid $120,574."


Anyway, I'm just sharing since it's interesting to see how the Ivy League manages to offers so many sports without making football a priority. Meanwhile, rivalries remain strong and tailgate parties on Saturday are the norm. Not that this can happen at Cal of course, I just thought it worth looking at how it's done with the Ivy League since it's oft mentioned.

It is occurring to me that maybe the idea of having all of our sports teams participate in a single conference is also becoming obsolete. Join a football and men's basketball conference where the travel is worth it for media revenues and where travel can be done by charter. Then form a West Coast Ivy League for all other sports supported by student fees as at UCD and UCSD. Some of our athletes (football and basketball) would be professionals, complete with NIL. The other sports could still have real student-athletes and stick to local conference arrangements that do not require long-distance travel. However, Title IX would also have to be revised to accommodate this new model.

annarborbear said:

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It is occurring to me that maybe the idea of having all of our sports teams participate in a single conference is also becoming obsolete. Join a football and men's basketball conference where the travel is worth it for media revenues and where travel can be done by charter. Then form a West Coast Ivy League for all other sports supported by student fees as at UCD and UCSD. Some of our athletes (football and basketball) would be professionals, complete with NIL. The other sports could still have real student-athletes and stick to local conference arrangements that do not require long-distance travel. However, Title IX would also have to be revised to accommodate this new model.

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Cal has teams in Pac-12 (RIP), MPSF (water polo), America East (field hockey) and I guess Rugby is independent.

Conference is already in place for Olympic sports.


MPSF

"The Mountain Pacific Sports Federation (MPSF) was established in 1992-1993 to serve the competitive needs of member institutions from the Big West, Pacific-10 (now the Pac-12) and Western Athletic Conferences, as well as other selected universities in the western United States; and to provide championships competition for Division I intercollegiate Olympic sports in a conference setting."

Cal sports: Men's gymnastics, Men's/women's water polo.

Website says they also oversee indoor track & field teams. That could be expanded to outdoor track & field teams too, I would think.

Field hockey already plays in the America East conference along with Stanford and UC Davis...so it's another examples of Cal teams playing outside the Pac12 ....https://americaeast.com/sports/fhockey

annarborbear said:

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It is occurring to me that maybe the idea of having all of our sports teams participate in a single conference is also becoming obsolete.
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As I posted on the men's board, how about inviting the 5 UCs and Cal Poly in the Big West to join the Pac for everything but football plus San Diego State and Hawaii for everything including football?

Gift link: Endangered Pac-12 was home to innovation, integration in sports history (sorry link is so long) https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/endangered-pac-12-home-innovation-integration-18283020.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=copy-url-link&utm_campaign=article-share&hash=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc2ZjaHJvbmljbGUuY29tL3Nwb3J0cy9vc3RsZXIvYXJ0aWNsZS9lbmRhbmdlcmVkLXBhYy0xMi1ob21lLWlubm92YXRpb24taW50ZWdyYXRpb24tMTgyODMwMjAucGhw&time=MTY5MTQ2MDE3NjMwNw==&rid=MDAyMjUwYmQtNGY5Ni00OWJkLThkODgtYTNiMDBlNTNkMWI2&sharecount=MQ==

Just up today on Berkeleyside: https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/08/09/cal-pac-12-realignment-big-ten-acc-mountain-west

Sounds like betting money is on the ACC. Duke, UNC, Notre Dame. Would make sense academically...

Title IX was great for women's sports. But we have just found that TV Networks focused on football can now blow up one of the best women's sports conferences in the country and no one is held accountable for anything.