heartofthebear said:

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dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

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The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

Double post.

dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

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The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

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dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

The more I read about the kid, the more he fits the profile of the type of person that could commit these crimes (loner criminology student who exhibits OCD tendencies, reportedly had some publicly negative interactions with women not long prior to the killings, his sisters thought he might be a suspect when they heard about the killings, etc. etc.). It's actually a pretty long list. Now that certainly doesn't mean he's guilty, only a small fraction of people who fit that profile become mass murderers, but there seems to be plenty of evidence linking him to the crime and approximately zero linking anyone else. The state has to prove their case, but I have a feeling they will bring some strong evidence to bear and that no one will call heart to be a witness based on his hunches and psychology background.

Also, my understanding based on TV shows is that estimating cause of death is pretty easy, so it would have been possible to determine whether the TOD was 4:30am or 9am or whatever. Presumably that would be enough to rule out any shenanigans like heart was speculating could have occurred.

Unit2Sucks said:

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The more I read about the kid, the more he fits the profile of the type of person that could commit these crimes (loner criminology student who exhibits OCD tendencies, reportedly had some publicly negative interactions with women not long prior to the killings, his sisters thought he might be a suspect when they heard about the killings, etc. etc.). It's actually a pretty long list. Now that certainly doesn't mean he's guilty, only a small fraction of people who fit that profile become mass murderers, but there seems to be plenty of evidence linking him to the crime and approximately zero linking anyone else. The state has to prove their case, but I have a feeling they will bring some strong evidence to bear and that no one will call heart to be a witness based on his hunches and psychology background.

Also, my understanding based on TV shows is that estimating cause of death is pretty easy, so it would have been possible to determine whether the TOD was 4:30am or 9am or whatever. Presumably that would be enough to rule out any shenanigans like heart was speculating could have occurred.

---

Nobody is disputing time of death or has issue with when the survivors woke up.
But yeah, you guys make a compelling case for the prosecution. I think you leave some details out that the defense might use. We'll see

Also the fact that he couldn't feel anything could have been a partial motive. He may have thought that commuting the crime would have been intense enough to generate a breakthrough. I don't know. If he did it by himself, it's a rather Herculean feat.

heartofthebear said:

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dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

heartofthebear said:

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dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

---

I hope you can watch the trial too and that you do so with an open mind. You continue to veer into conspiracy theory land and it doesn't appear anything will prevent you from drawing premature conclusions based on the current publicly available evidence which most observers consider damning but you somehow read to be exculpatory.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

---

I hope you can watch the trial too and that you do so with an open mind. You continue to veer into conspiracy theory land and it doesn't appear anything will prevent you from drawing premature conclusions based on the current publicly available evidence which most observers consider damning but you somehow read to be exculpatory.

---

whatever man

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

---

I think once you see the evidence and hear the testimony it will all make more sense to you. We don't know that the girls stumbled upon a murder scene. Maybe they were afraid to even leave their room until the guys got there. Maybe they just saw the legs of their friend in the hall.

No one said that they saw a graphic murder scene and even if they did maybe they saw what they wanted to see. I read a story about a woman whose roommate had been beaten to death and she thought all the blood on the walls was vomit and that her friend had choked to death on her own vomit after drinking.

Of course there's reasonable doubt. We haven't seen any evidence yet!

However, based on what we know so far I don't think the defense will have much of a chance.

We shall see.

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

---

I also want to share this story:

One time a single young female neighbor of mine saw some guys (3-4) creeping around her house at 4am. Some of them went up the road to my house where I later found evidence (footprints) that they had been as well, although they didn't disturb anything. One of them tried to mess with her car and it set off the alarm at which point they all ran off. She told me about it the next day and said I had better check out my place since I wasn't home at the time of the incident.

When I asked her why she didn't call the police she said that she doesn't like cops. I told her that was.a pretty dangerous situation and she should have called the police. She gave excuses. Later on she apologized to me and said that she should have called the police if only to protect my property. I don't know why people do what they do, but sometimes it doesn't seem rational to others.

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

heartofthebear said:

---

The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called.

Any semi-competent defense attorney will have a field day establishing reasonable doubt because of that. It doesn't matter who the suspect is or how many different suspects they try and prosecute, the argument will always be the same--"we really can't trust the evidence because we don't know what happened for those 3 hours and so there is reasonable doubt that any of the so called evidence against my client is a product of the commission of this crime."

I hope someday the families get together and sue the hell out of Brittany and Dylan for obstruction of justice.

---

"The 3 hours from 9 am. -- noon on 11/13/22 when a whole bunch of people came to the crime scene and likely contaminated it before law enforcement was even called."

Link?


Do you mean you want a source that confirms that folks arrived on the scene before the police arrived? Watch any of the press conferences the police had on youtube to find out when they were called and who called them. The police have confirmed that someone other than the 2 girls called around noon and that there were "a crowd of people" there when they arrived on the scene. Police responded to concerns about an "unconscious person" from someone other than the girls. How do you know someone is unconscious if they are not in the crime scene? I am too busy to find a link for you for something that is obvious and/or logical and that everyone is agreeing happened.

I'm sorry I can't help you with this right now. I'm swamped with other things and I don't think it is going to be easy to find a specific link other than just googling it. Have you tried that?

Try googling 3 hour time lag for Idaho 4 murders on 11/13/22 and see what comes up. You should get some links, lots of them.

Part of the problem is the gag order. So a lot of this type of news is kind of old and came out before the gag order was issued.

---

---

I did Google. What I read said that some friends of the girls were called, came to the house, confirmed the deaths and then called police. I never read anything about crowds of people milling about in the house or that they were there for three hours before calling police.

---

Okay. The thing is that there is a gag order now so we don't know what witnesses have been investigated and corroborated. Some folks claim that the friends were over before 9 am. Maybe not crowds, but quite a few people because the frats and sororities got wind of it and went over to see what was happening. 3 hours later the police were called. I suppose it took them that long to figure out what happened. Anyway, the fact that the police weren't called first is pretty sus.

---

What I read is that around noon the girls called over the brother of the slain guy and his friend because they saw a body lying on the floor and the two of them came over but it is unclear how many more people may have come or if anyone went into the house before that. He went into the house and discovered the bodies.He checked the pulse on at least one of them and determined they were dead. One of the girls came with him and he used her phone to call 911. She freaked out when she saw the scene, ran outside, and passed out. The guy who went in didn't allow anyone else in to spare them having to see the crime scene. That's what I read.

Now what time the girls woke up and what they did between waking up and calling over the guys I don't know. I haven't been able to find anything about it. I haven't seen anything about any gap between 9am and noon. I suspect the girls didn't wake up until late, but if there was a 3 hour gap between when they woke up and when they called the guys over I would like a link about that because I agree that could be damaging to the case if only because they may have destroyed evidence in the interim. However, the only source I have for that is you.

Everything else I have read about the case makes it seem like it will be a pretty slam dunk conviction. This guy was stalking the girls online and in person. His description and vehicle match the witness description and camera footage.

Also. he has no alibi.

In the court documents, his attorneys claim "Mr. Kohberger has long had a habit of going for drives alone," and that he did so on the night and morning of the brutal killings.

"Mr. Kohberger is not claiming to be at a specific location at a specific time; at this time there is not a specific witness to say precisely where Mr. Kohberger was at each moment of the hours between late night November 12, 2022, and early morning November 13, 2022," the filing said.

His attorney said that corroborating evidence that Kohberger was not at the scene of the crime will come from the cross-examination of state's witnesses.

"Mr. Kohberger cannot be more specific about the possible witnesses and exactly what they will say," the filing said.

Add to that his DNA was found at the crime scene and he is done.

---

well yeah, if that story is true, he's done
But the police claim they were called for an unconscious person not dead bodies so the story you heard is at least partly inaccurate and details matter in murder cases.
BTW, thanks for being respectful and I appreciate your diligence in seeking the truth.

---

I did read that the 911 call was for an unconscious person but supposedly that isn't very rare because most people can't tell if a person is truly dead. I think the girls saw their friend slumped on the floor and thought she overdosed or had a seizure or something and so the call was for an unconscious person but that it was while he was on the phone with the police that their male friend investigated more closely including checking for a pulse and concluded that they were dead.

I really think the surviving girls knew something bad had happened - I mean one of them saw the suspect and it scared her enough to lock herself in her room but not enough to call the police. I think they were hoping it wasn't what it seemed when they saw their friend slumped in the hall. I mean, who expects to wake up to find their four friends murdered in the same house with hardly a sound being made?

I suspect their called their male friends to come check things out because they still didn't realize that the murders had occurred. They probably tried to call/text their housemates and didn't hear anything back. It is curious why they didn't call 911 first even for a potential medical emergency and I would like to hear their explanation for that. Maybe they just wanted the guys to make sure they weren't just being scared for no reason before doing that.

---

All of this is fine in your mind. But my point is that this provides enough grist for the defense mill to create reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the crime scene and the case itself.

Also, think about what you just posted. It really doesn't make sense that folks would encounter a murder scene that was graphically bloody and make a "mistake" about what had happened. And the jury is going to have trouble understanding that call even if you try to explain it away.

It's also interesting that the 911 call has never been released, which is rather rare.
Once again, since so much has been kept under raps, it's really hard to know what the real story is and how much justice the families will get.
For now, there are significant enough questions to give the defense a chance to establish doubt. Maybe the prosecution can explain it all. But it's going to involve a lot of explaining. I hope I can watch the trial because I will learn alot that I don't know now.

---

I also want to share this story:

One time a single young female neighbor of mine saw some guys (3-4) creeping around her house at 4am. Some of them went up the road to my house where I later found evidence (footprints) that they had been as well, although they didn't disturb anything. One of them tried to mess with her car and it set off the alarm at which point they all ran off. She told me about it the next day and said I had better check out my place since I wasn't home at the time of the incident.

When I asked her why she didn't call the police she said that she doesn't like cops. I told her that was.a pretty dangerous situation and she should have called the police. She gave excuses. Later on she apologized to me and said that she should have called the police if only to protect my property. I don't know why people do what they do, but sometimes it doesn't seem rational to others.

---

I understand
I am convinced they had reasons for not calling the cops.
The question is, what were those reasons. Hopefully we find out.

The defendant apparently filed a motion claiming an alibi (I missed this before, maybe it was part of the plea?) - he was out an about by himself driving at night.

The defense apparently expects to use prosecution witnesses to verify this alibi.

Commentary:
As alibis go, that is not much of one. If anything, it tends to support the prosecution's theory. And it is curious given the affidavit includes the info which tracks the defendant's car and phone.

One of the most curious aspects of the case is why the surviving victim didn't call the police immediately after encountering the murderer. With the gag order we aren't going to know until the trial.

tequila4kapp said:

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One of the most curious aspects of the case is why the surviving victim didn't call the police immediately after encountering the murderer. With the gag order we aren't going to know until the trial.

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I don't find that odd at all.

Lots of young women (6 until one recently moved out) with late night habits shared that house and there were probably people coming and going all hours of the night. Heck, one of the girls ordered Door Dash at 4am right before the murders.

I don't think the witness found it too unusual to see a strange man in the house. It made her nervous enough to lock herself in her room but it didn't rise to the level of needing to call the police. Now if he had started banging on her door she might have called 911 but that isn't what happened.

It is more curious why the two surviving girls didn't call the police in the morning, which is discussed above, but I attribute that to waking up late after being up to 4am (or later).

It is not clear if the witness (whose room was on the 2nd floor) went to the other girl's room (which was on the 1st) sometime during the night and - if so - how she didn't see anything in doing so. She had to have passed the body of her friend on her way down.

Maybe she cracked her door open, saw a person lying there, freaked out, and texted all her roommates. Surviving roommate responded but was too scared to go see what happened and they called the guys over to check it out. Again, not thinking they needed the police at that point as no one was in immediate danger.

The fact that the roommate on the first floor accompanied the guy in, but ran outside in a panic, hyperventilated, and passed out after seeing the bodies makes me think that she never went upstairs at all until then. The witness (whose bedroom was on the second floor) was outside hysterical and no one could make out what she was saying. Again, that makes me think she had just discovered what had happened and not that she sat there for hours figuring out what to do about all the dead bodies in the house.

What I find disturbing is that this guy was able to kill 4 people (2 pairs of people no less) quickly and silently with a knife. That's not easy to do unless you have some training. Does he have a history of fascinations with knives or knight fighting? Granted, they were probably drunk but that had potential to be a big, loud mess. The dude wasn't a ninja, was he?

From what I can gather two of the deceased (Kernoodle and her boyfriend Chapin) were in the 2nd floor room, essentially where the "S" of Second floor is located.

The surviving roommate (DM) is on the same floor. Her bedroom is on the opposite end of the house - straight back from the sliding glass door. In other words, "kitty corner" to the 2nd floor victims.

The 3rd floor victims - Goncalves and Mogen - were immediately above the 2nd floor survivor.


From the Affidavit:
@4:00 am - DM (2nd floor) is awoken by Goncalves (3rd floor) playing with her dog and hears a female (Goncalves or Kernoodle) say "Somebody is here"
4:04am - Suspect vehicle observed by video entering the area of the home for a 4th time
@4:12 am - Kernoodle (2nd floor) is likely using her phone for TikTok. DM (2nd floor) opens door, sees nothing. DM hears potential crying from Kernoodle's room and opens door again. Hears male voice say "its okay, I'm going to help you." (note - the affidavit reads like this voice is from Kernoodle's 2nd floor room, not Goncalves 3rd floor room but that's a not so little detail to be firmed up at trial)
4:17am - video system adjacent to Kernoodle's room (2nd floor) records voices / whimpering, a loud thud and dog barking. DM (2nd floor) opens door a 3rd time after hearing the crying and sees bushy eyed male with black hood walk "past her" toward the 2nd floor sliding glass door (ie, and exit from the house). (note - the presumed orientation of the house makes this statement interesting. The natural path of someone walking toward and past DM on their way to the 2nd floor sliding glass door would be coming from the 3rd floor, not Kernoodle's 2nd floor room)
4:20am- video of suspects vehicle leaving the area at a high rate of speed

Implications/observations:

• Details are going to matter. Exactly where did DM hear the voices heard? What direction was presumed murder moving when he walked past DM? These facts will be critical for establishing who was murdered first and the sequence of actions.
• Weird for a murderer to have already killed 4 people then walk past a 5th person and leave without killing that person too.

You guys are bringing up a lot of the issues and questions I have and that is why I think the trial will be interesting, assuming the defense is vigorous, they will also bring up a lot of good questions. Hopefully we get some cogent explanations. Not only is it creepy that possibly one guy did all of these without raising more and quicker alarms but it seems that it's very possible that at least some of the victims were not drunk and were awake. They may not even have been in bed. I say this because some things don't make sense otherwise. For example, it seems that, at least in one version of the story, Ethan's body was blocking the door. I don't know how that's even possible unless he fell off the bed and rolled in front of the door post mortem. But also, as stated, there was crying, conversations, evidence of fighting back on some of the wounds, etc. Apparently the dog was barking a lot and it was not a barking dog, as far as I know.

It is flat out physically exhausting and almost impossible to do without self injury, to stab a person over 50 times. And that was just one victim. Maybe Dylan wasn't attacked because the murderer was flat out exhausted and could not muster up any more energy to make further attacks and so, just left instead, realizing later that he didn't have the sheath any longer.

Anyway, we can make up stories, theories and speculate, which I love to do, but I think the truth, when it hopefully comes out in trial will provide revelations for all of us seeking answers and justice in this case.

tequila4kapp said:

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From what I can gather two of the deceased (Kernoodle and her boyfriend Chapin) were in the 2nd floor room, essentially where the "S" of Second floor is located.

The surviving roommate (DM) is on the same floor. Her bedroom is on the opposite end of the house - straight back from the sliding glass door. In other words, "kitty corner" to the 2nd floor victims.

The 3rd floor victims - Goncalves and Mogen - were immediately above the 2nd floor survivor.


From the Affidavit:
@4:00 am - DM (2nd floor) is awoken by Goncalves (3rd floor) playing with her dog and hears a female (Goncalves or Kernoodle) say "Somebody is here"
4:04am - Suspect vehicle observed by video entering the area of the home for a 4th time
@4:12 am - Kernoodle (2nd floor) is likely using her phone for TikTok. DM (2nd floor) opens door, sees nothing. DM hears potential crying from Kernoodle's room and opens door again. Hears male voice say "its okay, I'm going to help you." (note - the affidavit reads like this voice is from Kernoodle's 2nd floor room, not Goncalves 3rd floor room but that's a not so little detail to be firmed up at trial)
4:17am - video system adjacent to Kernoodle's room (2nd floor) records voices / whimpering, a loud thud and dog barking. DM (2nd floor) opens door a 3rd time after hearing the crying and sees bushy eyed male with black hood walk "past her" toward the 2nd floor sliding glass door (ie, and exit from the house). (note - the presumed orientation of the house makes this statement interesting. The natural path of someone walking toward and past DM on their way to the 2nd floor sliding glass door would be coming from the 3rd floor, not Kernoodle's 2nd floor room)
4:20am- video of suspects vehicle leaving the area at a high rate of speed

Implications/observations:

• Details are going to matter. Exactly where did DM hear the voices heard? What direction was presumed murder moving when he walked past DM? These facts will be critical for establishing who was murdered first and the sequence of actions.
• Weird for a murderer to have already killed 4 people then walk past a 5th person and leave without killing that person too.

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It was dark and I expect that either he didn't see her or else he did but decided that he would be pushing his luck to attack a very awake and aware person when there could still be other people in the house, which there were. Another idea is that he didn't have his weapon anymore or it was broken in some manner.

I think the voices aren't that important. She doesn't know who they were or where they came from and I am not sure it matters much.

As for walking past the witness, I assume that is the way out of the house when leaving the second floor bedroom. One would walk down the hall through the kitchen (which is also on that floor) and past the stairs as well so he could have come from anywhere in the house on his way out the sliding door. He could have left via the first floor as well but clearly he didn't.

My thought is that he went to the third floor to kill the girl he was stalking and was surprised her friend was in bed with her. At that point he felt he had to kill her too or risk leaving a witness. On his way back downstairs he discovered the other girl awake and either in the kitchen or bathroom. Maybe she saw him, maybe not. He made the decision to eliminate her as a witness. Her attack was supposedly the most fierce as she was the only one not to die in bed and she had defensive wounds. He had not killed her when he either heard noises in the bedroom or she called out to her boyfriend. She had probably already fallen. He rushed over to kill the guy who was either sitting up in bed, still lying in bed, or maybe had just gotten up. His body was found on the mattress. Then the killer went back to finish off the girl with his "I can help you" statement, i.e., put her out of her misery. How all this happened without anyone shouting is hard to believe but they could have been really drunk/high and kids often wear headphones so maybe they did and the other girls just didn't hear. At that point he was on the second floor and he just wanted to get the heck out of there without dealing with more people on the first floor and the way out is back past the witnesses' room which is where she saw him.

The crazy thing is that if he wanted to kill the girl it would make more sense to find her alone than in a house she shared with 5 other girls. I think he got off on the stalking aspect which is why he drove around the house so often. However, he clearly was intent on murder and not kidnapping or rape because attempting either of those would have resulted in him being caught for sure.

heartofthebear said:

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You guys are bringing up a lot of the issues and questions I have and that is why I think the trial will be interesting, assuming the defense is vigorous, they will also bring up a lot of good questions. Hopefully we get some cogent explanations. Not only is it creepy that possibly one guy did all of these without raising more and quicker alarms but it seems that it's very possible that at least some of the victims were not drunk and were awake. They may not even have been in bed. I say this because some things don't make sense otherwise. For example, it seems that, at least in one version of the story, Ethan's body was blocking the door. I don't know how that's even possible unless he fell off the bed and rolled in front of the door post mortem. But also, as stated, there was crying, conversations, evidence of fighting back on some of the wounds, etc. Apparently the dog was barking a lot and it was not a barking dog, as far as I know.

It is flat out physically exhausting and almost impossible to do without self injury, to stab a person over 50 times. And that was just one victim. Maybe Dylan wasn't attacked because the murderer was flat out exhausted and could not muster up any more energy to make further attacks and so, just left instead, realizing later that he didn't have the sheath any longer.

Anyway, we can make up stories, theories and speculate, which I love to do, but I think the truth, when it hopefully comes out in trial will provide revelations for all of us seeking answers and justice in this case.

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Where did you read that a victim was stabbed 50 times? I did not see that.

I also agree that he could have been tired - not just physically but mentally. He might not have wanted to do more killing. Unlike these mass shootings, stabbings are up close and personal. He might have realized that killing random people really wasn't as exciting as killing the girl he was obsessed with and it wasn't what he set out to do.

I also think he realized he was pushing his luck to stay in the house any longer.

dimitrig said:

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heartofthebear said:

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You guys are bringing up a lot of the issues and questions I have and that is why I think the trial will be interesting, assuming the defense is vigorous, they will also bring up a lot of good questions. Hopefully we get some cogent explanations. Not only is it creepy that possibly one guy did all of these without raising more and quicker alarms but it seems that it's very possible that at least some of the victims were not drunk and were awake. They may not even have been in bed. I say this because some things don't make sense otherwise. For example, it seems that, at least in one version of the story, Ethan's body was blocking the door. I don't know how that's even possible unless he fell off the bed and rolled in front of the door post mortem. But also, as stated, there was crying, conversations, evidence of fighting back on some of the wounds, etc. Apparently the dog was barking a lot and it was not a barking dog, as far as I know.

It is flat out physically exhausting and almost impossible to do without self injury, to stab a person over 50 times. And that was just one victim. Maybe Dylan wasn't attacked because the murderer was flat out exhausted and could not muster up any more energy to make further attacks and so, just left instead, realizing later that he didn't have the sheath any longer.

Anyway, we can make up stories, theories and speculate, which I love to do, but I think the truth, when it hopefully comes out in trial will provide revelations for all of us seeking answers and justice in this case.

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Where did you read that a victim was stabbed 50 times? I did not see that.

I also agree that he could have been tired - not just physically but mentally. He might not have wanted to do more killing. Unlike these mass shootings, stabbings are up close and personal. He might have realized that killing random people really wasn't as exciting as killing the girl he was obsessed with and it wasn't what he set out to do.

I also think he realized he was pushing his luck to stay in the house any longer.

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I'm sorry that I don't keep track of my sources. I watch pretty much everything out on this. I don't have TV service so I rely on shows on youtube where investigators, lawyers and such are interviewed about the crime. I get most of my information from them or court TV or News nation. Things have come out over time. One thing is for sure is that the initial reports from the coroner that all of the victims were drunk, asleep and/or otherwise silent and thus were easily victimized cannot be true.

dimitrig said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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From what I can gather two of the deceased (Kernoodle and her boyfriend Chapin) were in the 2nd floor room, essentially where the "S" of Second floor is located.

The surviving roommate (DM) is on the same floor. Her bedroom is on the opposite end of the house - straight back from the sliding glass door. In other words, "kitty corner" to the 2nd floor victims.

The 3rd floor victims - Goncalves and Mogen - were immediately above the 2nd floor survivor.


From the Affidavit:
@4:00 am - DM (2nd floor) is awoken by Goncalves (3rd floor) playing with her dog and hears a female (Goncalves or Kernoodle) say "Somebody is here"
4:04am - Suspect vehicle observed by video entering the area of the home for a 4th time
@4:12 am - Kernoodle (2nd floor) is likely using her phone for TikTok. DM (2nd floor) opens door, sees nothing. DM hears potential crying from Kernoodle's room and opens door again. Hears male voice say "its okay, I'm going to help you." (note - the affidavit reads like this voice is from Kernoodle's 2nd floor room, not Goncalves 3rd floor room but that's a not so little detail to be firmed up at trial)
4:17am - video system adjacent to Kernoodle's room (2nd floor) records voices / whimpering, a loud thud and dog barking. DM (2nd floor) opens door a 3rd time after hearing the crying and sees bushy eyed male with black hood walk "past her" toward the 2nd floor sliding glass door (ie, and exit from the house). (note - the presumed orientation of the house makes this statement interesting. The natural path of someone walking toward and past DM on their way to the 2nd floor sliding glass door would be coming from the 3rd floor, not Kernoodle's 2nd floor room)
4:20am- video of suspects vehicle leaving the area at a high rate of speedl

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As for walking past the witness, I assume that is the way out of the house when leaving the second floor bedroom. One would walk down the hall through the kitchen (which is also on that floor) and past the stairs as well so he could have come from anywhere in the house on his way out the sliding door. He could have left via the first floor as well but clearly he didn't.

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The orientation of the rooms comes into play.

DM's doorway should be facing Kernoodle's room and the kitchen. So if defendent is walking away from the Kernoodle murder scene he would be walking toward DM then making a right hand U-Turn to get to the sliding glass door. That doesn't naturally fit with "walking past" in my mind.

The stairway from 3rd floor to 2nd floor would be immediate to the left of DM bedroom door. If DM and Kernoodle's room are effectively opposite each other these stairs are perpendicular to the rooms. Coming down the stairs is much more consistent with "walking past" because a person would have the DM door on their right then the sliding glass door would be The opposite side of the house.

DM was likely tired and scared. Her language might be imprecise. None of this means defendant wasn't the killer. I just note that these details become interesting because they are intertwined with the minutia of what happened. Who was killed first? Last? Where did defendant move? Etc.