An obscure tax case may become SCOTUS' most controversial decison (wealth tax)

1,972 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 11 mo ago by dajo9
wifeisafurd
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It seemed like a run of the mill wonky tax case. The plaintiffs want to overturn a tax regime pushed by the Trump administration with bi-partisan support, dealing with the repatriation of foreign income, which has been a big issue for Presidential candidates of both party until this legislation.

Charles and Kathleen Moore challenge the repatriation tax, which applies to U.S. persons owning at least 10 percent of a controlled foreign corporation. It requires those U.S. shareholders to pay a one-time tax on the undistributed earnings and profits of the foreign corporation dating back to the end of 1986. The tax rate is 15.5 percent for earnings held in cash and 8 percent otherwise. In return, the US taxpayers don't have to pay taxes on the income brought to the US.

The Moores, who are do gooders that wanted to help the poor in India (and thus make an ideal plaintiff as opposed to companies like Apple that stashed billions of dollars in overseas affiliates), own slightly more than 10 percent of an Indian agricultural toolmaker named KisanKraft; they now seek a refund of the roughly $15,000 they paid under the mandatory repatriation tax. They argue that the mandatory repatriation tax lies outside the 16th Amendment's conception of income tax because it applies to earnings and profits accumulated by KisanKraft that were never distributed to shareholders. And because the mandatory repatriation tax isn't an income tax within the meaning of the 16th Amendment, the Moores say, Congress cannot levy the tax unless it apportions the burden among the states based on population. The Constitutional apportionment prohibition had to be amended by the 16th amendment to even allow for income taxes, and most tax experts believe that result would bar the imposition of wealth taxes.

The upshot is that for almost everyone except the Moores themselves, the outcome in the case matters less than the reasoning that the Justices embrace, and thus the case if full of amicus briefs debating accounting concepts and the wealth tax. But here are the two major concepts at play:

1) the tax does something unusual in that it requires payment of tax without receiving the income to pay the tax (e..g, realization), which tax practitioners hate as tax policy at its worst. For example, in this case, the Moores would have to sell their interest in KisanKraft to pay the tax. The Moore's rely chiefly on Eisner v. Macomber, in which SCOTUS held that the 16th Amendment did not allow Congress to tax a shareholder on the earnings of a corporation until the shareholder had "realized" those earnings (for example, through a cash dividend). That said, SCOTUS has held the Congress can generally have the power taxes. The Moores want the prior SCOTUS case overruled, to not allow taxations without realization. This would invalidate the few exceptions to the general income tax regimen that only tax realized income, and have implications for the ongoing budget negotiations. But if this conservative SCOTUS follows Macomber, there at least would be a narrow ruling, Congress can either increase the deficit, cut spending and/or raise taxes in some way. How it applied Macomber might also require anew tax regime on repatriation scheme. But it gets even more interesting because

2) Buried in the plaintiff's briefs was an argument that the mandatory repatriation tax stress-tests the income/wealth tax distinction (note the right in financing the case). The earnings and profits of this corporation are really the value of the stock (at least for the privately held corporations), and thus the tax is a disguised wealth tax which should be struct down under the prior SCOTUS decisions which disallowed income taxes and led to the 16th amendment. Moreover, they argue a wealth tax is, after all, a tax on all unconsumed items of income realized or not accruing to a taxpayer up to that point, and that the earnings and profits of the foreign entity which itself can't be taxed by the US have not accrued to the taxpayer in a way that they can consume (this disregards the approach used by some billionaires who borrow against assets). This alarmed the left that the case will allow SCOTUS the opportunity to bar wealth taxes (the article I'm attaching from Vox, which admittedly has some over the top commentary and sees conspiracies everywhere, does a good explaining the wealth tax issue). Then again, some other parti of the left has seen an opportunity with many liberal think tanks filing amicus briefs, that in fact this is a wealth tax and that earlier case law which led to the 16th Amendment should be overturned; thus, wealth taxes are legal. Given the predilection of SCOTUS, that might be a lot to swallow, but the strategy is to presumably have the liberal justices base their dissent on this reasoning should the majority go against them on more narrow grounds, in order to set in motion a move to validate wealth taxes as constitutional as the SCOTUS Justices change.

In any event, here are two articles from different perspectives on the case:

https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/11/27/23970859/supreme-court-wealth-tax-moore-united-states

The Vox article is good about what is at stake and why, but is factually lacking from a tax case analysis. For example Macomber, like the Moores, deals with a case where a minority shareholders who can't compel a dividend doesn't have income, but the opposing cases discussed by Vox deals involve wholly owned subs, where the courts expressly do not overrule Macomber, but just indicate the wholly owned entities issues constructive dividends to themselves through loans.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/us-wealth-tax-could-gain-footing-with-supreme-court-moore-ruling?utm_source=Email_Share (tax heads discuss)

Is a U.S. Wealth Tax Constitutional?Wall Street Journalhttps://www.wsj.com Opinion Review & Outlook
(view opposing Vox, with big busines bias)


How the Supreme Court Case Moore v. United States Could ...YouTube Urban Institute1 hour, 57 minutes, 18 secondsSep 22, 2023. (really major tax heads discussing the case to death for those who are disturbing into tax policy stuff)



Unit2Sucks
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Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.
dimitrig
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Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.



dajo9
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dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
wifeisafurd
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Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.
Very good question, which how SCOTUS resolved this really matters. If they rule for the taxpayer, do they take down the whole part of the TJCA related to foreign income, much the same way not allowing the insurance mandate would undercut Obamacare? No one really knows. Relying on Congress to come up with a fix in the day of divided government is perilous. Both sides of the aisle clearly want the capital to come back and low tax on foregn profits to accomplish that, so maybe there is a fix. The other thing that could happen is SCOTUS says we are only ruling for the taxpayers because they are minority shareholders, which prevents the Apple's of the world from avoiding the tax and destroying the present budget deal. Also, Supreme Courts are notoruously bad at tax cases, and come-up with such bizarre standards as "mainsprings of human conduct to the totality of the fact of each case", so who knows what they come-up with? They could rule for the government.

That all said, this is an activist Court, and they could rule the tax a wealth tax that violates earlier court decisions. Several media sources (e.g., Mother Jones, the Federalist) have labelled this case as potentially the most important case of the century, and I'm rather shocked there isn't more discourse, given the discussions about wealth taxes, income inequality. etc.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy. The TCJA instead produced winners and losers. Just to be clear, if the tax in this case goes down, it only would impact the TCJA tax regime related to foreign income, not the entire legislation. It is how SCOTUS could decide the case could also eliminate the ability of Congress to enact all sorts of taxes, including taxes on wealth, in the future.
dajo9
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wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
Unit2Sucks
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I'm pretty skeptical that we would ever really pass a wealth tax. Going to create so many administrative and other problems. Just seems like a pipe dream for Elizabeth Warren. I get why people push for it but I don't see it happening and wouldn't mind SCOTUS just ending the debate.
dajo9
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Unit2Sucks said:

I'm pretty skeptical that we would ever really pass a wealth tax. Going to create so many administrative and other problems. Just seems like a pipe dream for Elizabeth Warren. I get why people push for it but I don't see it happening and wouldn't mind SCOTUS just ending the debate.


SCOTUS can't end the debate. However, they could advance the debate over who belongs on the SCOTUS.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

I'm pretty skeptical that we would ever really pass a wealth tax. Going to create so many administrative and other problems. Just seems like a pipe dream for Elizabeth Warren. I get why people push for it but I don't see it happening and wouldn't mind SCOTUS just ending the debate.


SCOTUS can't end the debate. However, they could advance the debate over who belongs on the SCOTUS.
SCOTUS didn't end the debate on income taxes - they just caused an amendment to the Constitution,
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...
dajo9
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wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics
tequila4kapp
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It has been forever since my Tax class in law school so... but taxes on unrealized money sees way way off. The applicability of the 16th amendment makes for an interesting dorky legal question. Some day when I can't sleep I'll probably read the briefs.
Unit2Sucks
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dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.
dajo9
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Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.
dimitrig
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dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.
DiabloWags
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Good discussion.
And it just went "mainstream" on the front of Yahoo today via an article from USA Today.

This couple is fighting $15,000 in taxes. Their case could cost Washington trillions (yahoo.com)
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
wifeisafurd
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dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.

So here is the problem, you guys are comparing different years' numbers, and that makes a huge difference because the number of Californian millionaire taxpayers went up dramatically during the time period in question.

Let's start with the graph, which is based on 2017 or before numbers, as can clearly be understood by the language 2018 taxpayers will pay (not the present tense). The bill was passed in late 2017, the article was in April 2019 before tax returns were filed, meaning the earliest possible data was available from the 2018 returns (not sure what they did with the 2020 update). My guess is that we are talking about 2016 numbers.

But the freaking article itself says:

"California's progressive tax structure means about 43,000 top-bracket residents earning more than $1 million a year will pay the lion's share of the SALT cap by contributing $9 billion more to Uncle Sam, according to FTB." Then the graph has a blue line, which shows the relative amount in tax increase and demonstrates that the folks over $1 million in salary take way more of the tax hit. It is pretty clear whose taxes went up, but you do have to ask yourself what percentage do those 43,000 represent of the millionaire taxpayers?

Dajo cleverly said look at this Times 2022 article which is quoting current numbers which everyone then compares with the 2016 or 2017 numbers in the table to draw conclusions. I don't think he did that deliberately, I probably would have done the same thing. So let's look at the numbers actually reported by FTB since there was a massive 50% plus increase in the number of millionaire taxpayers through 2021 rendering Dajo's comparison totally invalid (also the number of millionaire taxpayers went down in 2022 as the tech malaise and impact of C-19 hit). I think there were 72,500 millionaire taxpayers because that is what a Bloomberg article behind a paywall and another article here which I was able to read, but is also behind a paywall.
ocregister.comCalifornia added 37,010 million-dollar taxpayers in 5 years, most in USIn 2021, 109,480 Californians filed federal returns with million-dollar incomes No. 1 among the states and 18% of the US total.

Now when I divide 43,000 by 72,500, I get 59% plus of the millionaire taxpayers paid more taxes, and if you believe the blue line, they paid a lot more taxes.

if this doesn't convince you guys, then explain to me why state like California paid so much more in federal taxes relative to other states when income tax rates on the very wealthy dropped and CA has more millionaire taxpayers than anyone else? Read this article.

https://itep.org/final-gop-trump-bill-still-forces-california-and-new-york-to-shoulder-a-larger-share-of-federal-taxes-texas-florida-and-other-states-will-pay-less/


dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.

So here is the problem, you guys are comparing different years' numbers, and that makes a huge difference because the number of Californian millionaire taxpayers went up dramatically during the time period in question.

Let's start with the graph, which is based on 2017 or before numbers, as can clearly be understood by the language 2018 taxpayers will pay (not the present tense). The bill was passed in late 2017, the article was in April 2019 before tax returns were filed, meaning the earliest possible data was available from the 2018 returns (not sure what they did with the 2020 update). My guess is that we are talking about 2016 numbers.

But the freaking article itself says:

"California's progressive tax structure means about 43,000 top-bracket residents earning more than $1 million a year will pay the lion's share of the SALT cap by contributing $9 billion more to Uncle Sam, according to FTB." Then the graph has a blue line, which shows the relative amount in tax increase and demonstrates that the folks over $1 million in salary take way more of the tax hit. It is pretty clear whose taxes went up, but you do have to ask yourself what percentage do those 43,000 represent of the millionaire taxpayers?

Dajo cleverly said look at this Times 2022 article which is quoting current numbers which everyone then compares with the 2016 or 2017 numbers in the table to draw conclusions. I don't think he did that deliberately, I probably would have done the same thing. So let's look at the numbers actually reported by FTB since there was a massive 50% plus increase in the number of millionaire taxpayers through 2021 rendering Dajo's comparison totally invalid (also the number of millionaire taxpayers went down in 2022 as the tech malaise and impact of C-19 hit). I think there were 72,500 millionaire taxpayers because that is what a Bloomberg article behind a paywall and another article here which I was able to read, but is also behind a paywall.
ocregister.comCalifornia added 37,010 million-dollar taxpayers in 5 years, most in USIn 2021, 109,480 Californians filed federal returns with million-dollar incomes No. 1 among the states and 18% of the US total.

Now when I divide 43,000 by 72,500, I get 59% plus of the millionaire taxpayers paid more taxes, and if you believe the blue line, they paid a lot more taxes.

if this doesn't convince you guys, then explain to me why state like California paid so much more in federal taxes relative to other states when income tax rates on the very wealthy dropped and CA has more millionaire taxpayers than anyone else? Read this article.

https://itep.org/final-gop-trump-bill-still-forces-california-and-new-york-to-shoulder-a-larger-share-of-federal-taxes-texas-florida-and-other-states-will-pay-less/





The LA Times article I linked very clearly said the data was from 2019.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.

So here is the problem, you guys are comparing different years' numbers, and that makes a huge difference because the number of Californian millionaire taxpayers went up dramatically during the time period in question.

Let's start with the graph, which is based on 2017 or before numbers, as can clearly be understood by the language 2018 taxpayers will pay (not the present tense). The bill was passed in late 2017, the article was in April 2019 before tax returns were filed, meaning the earliest possible data was available from the 2018 returns (not sure what they did with the 2020 update). My guess is that we are talking about 2016 numbers.

But the freaking article itself says:

"California's progressive tax structure means about 43,000 top-bracket residents earning more than $1 million a year will pay the lion's share of the SALT cap by contributing $9 billion more to Uncle Sam, according to FTB." Then the graph has a blue line, which shows the relative amount in tax increase and demonstrates that the folks over $1 million in salary take way more of the tax hit. It is pretty clear whose taxes went up, but you do have to ask yourself what percentage do those 43,000 represent of the millionaire taxpayers?

Dajo cleverly said look at this Times 2022 article which is quoting current numbers which everyone then compares with the 2016 or 2017 numbers in the table to draw conclusions. I don't think he did that deliberately, I probably would have done the same thing. So let's look at the numbers actually reported by FTB since there was a massive 50% plus increase in the number of millionaire taxpayers through 2021 rendering Dajo's comparison totally invalid (also the number of millionaire taxpayers went down in 2022 as the tech malaise and impact of C-19 hit). I think there were 72,500 millionaire taxpayers because that is what a Bloomberg article behind a paywall and another article here which I was able to read, but is also behind a paywall.
ocregister.comCalifornia added 37,010 million-dollar taxpayers in 5 years, most in USIn 2021, 109,480 Californians filed federal returns with million-dollar incomes No. 1 among the states and 18% of the US total.

Now when I divide 43,000 by 72,500, I get 59% plus of the millionaire taxpayers paid more taxes, and if you believe the blue line, they paid a lot more taxes.

if this doesn't convince you guys, then explain to me why state like California paid so much more in federal taxes relative to other states when income tax rates on the very wealthy dropped and CA has more millionaire taxpayers than anyone else? Read this article.

https://itep.org/final-gop-trump-bill-still-forces-california-and-new-york-to-shoulder-a-larger-share-of-federal-taxes-texas-florida-and-other-states-will-pay-less/





The LA Times article I linked very clearly said the data was from 2019.
Thank you for that admission that you did know that you didn't use the same years for comparison purposes. While you're examining the LA Times screw-up on the $500K dilemma, maybe you can explain why you didn't use the OC Register's numbers since they are supposed to be from the same source?

dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.

So here is the problem, you guys are comparing different years' numbers, and that makes a huge difference because the number of Californian millionaire taxpayers went up dramatically during the time period in question.

Let's start with the graph, which is based on 2017 or before numbers, as can clearly be understood by the language 2018 taxpayers will pay (not the present tense). The bill was passed in late 2017, the article was in April 2019 before tax returns were filed, meaning the earliest possible data was available from the 2018 returns (not sure what they did with the 2020 update). My guess is that we are talking about 2016 numbers.

But the freaking article itself says:

"California's progressive tax structure means about 43,000 top-bracket residents earning more than $1 million a year will pay the lion's share of the SALT cap by contributing $9 billion more to Uncle Sam, according to FTB." Then the graph has a blue line, which shows the relative amount in tax increase and demonstrates that the folks over $1 million in salary take way more of the tax hit. It is pretty clear whose taxes went up, but you do have to ask yourself what percentage do those 43,000 represent of the millionaire taxpayers?

Dajo cleverly said look at this Times 2022 article which is quoting current numbers which everyone then compares with the 2016 or 2017 numbers in the table to draw conclusions. I don't think he did that deliberately, I probably would have done the same thing. So let's look at the numbers actually reported by FTB since there was a massive 50% plus increase in the number of millionaire taxpayers through 2021 rendering Dajo's comparison totally invalid (also the number of millionaire taxpayers went down in 2022 as the tech malaise and impact of C-19 hit). I think there were 72,500 millionaire taxpayers because that is what a Bloomberg article behind a paywall and another article here which I was able to read, but is also behind a paywall.
ocregister.comCalifornia added 37,010 million-dollar taxpayers in 5 years, most in USIn 2021, 109,480 Californians filed federal returns with million-dollar incomes No. 1 among the states and 18% of the US total.

Now when I divide 43,000 by 72,500, I get 59% plus of the millionaire taxpayers paid more taxes, and if you believe the blue line, they paid a lot more taxes.

if this doesn't convince you guys, then explain to me why state like California paid so much more in federal taxes relative to other states when income tax rates on the very wealthy dropped and CA has more millionaire taxpayers than anyone else? Read this article.

https://itep.org/final-gop-trump-bill-still-forces-california-and-new-york-to-shoulder-a-larger-share-of-federal-taxes-texas-florida-and-other-states-will-pay-less/





The LA Times article I linked very clearly said the data was from 2019.
Thank you for that admission that you did know that you didn't use the same years for comparison purposes. While you're examining the LA Times screw-up on the $500K dilemma, maybe you can explain why you didn't use the OC Register's numbers since they are supposed to be from the same source?




Lol. Your article isn't clear about what year it is using so I'm supposed to admit something about years? Meanwhile, my article is clear and you completely bungled that.

Your OC Register link doesn't work for me. I get a Facebook error message. I also disagree with your definition of wealthy being about the top 100k of income earners in CA. By your definition I am not wealthy, which is fine - but I would feel embarrassed to make that claim to somebody earning a median income.

It's real simple. You made an assertion. I asked you to support it with data. You haven't.
wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
'The federal government really jacked us': How Trump's tax ...CalMattershttps://calmatters.org politics 2019/04 trump-tax-c...



Most of the people affected in your article are upper middle class - not wealthy - and they are still a minority. As for the wealthy, the chart in your article indicates about 100k California taxpayers with incomes above $500k had their taxes increased by Trump. The article below indicates CA has about 3 million filers with incomes above $500k (17% of 17.5 million filers). Clearly most of the wealthy had their taxes lowered by Trump in CA and ~3% of CA wealthy had their taxes raised by Trump.

https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2022-04-15/california-politics-tax-day-is-a-big-deal-in-the-state-capitol-ca-politics

I almost did a spit take. $500k would be 1% in taxable income nationwide but is almost 1/5 of California taxpayers?

I don't have a ton of time at the moment but fairly certain the times got that one wrong. Federal data (here) shows 1% in CA from 2019 (the same year from the article) was about $725k, so something isn't adding up.

If it is true, this should be a whole thread on its own because it would be a fascinating contrast to the rest of the country.


You may be right that the LA Times got that wrong. It does seem high. I wonder if there is some nuance to them saying 17% "of all tax filings" which may be different from 17% of households.

Either way, I don't think the article provided by wiaf proves his claim that most of the wealthy in high tax states had their taxes raised by Trump. Willing to look at more data.


It is 17% of all tax filings that claim deductions.

So here is the problem, you guys are comparing different years' numbers, and that makes a huge difference because the number of Californian millionaire taxpayers went up dramatically during the time period in question.

Let's start with the graph, which is based on 2017 or before numbers, as can clearly be understood by the language 2018 taxpayers will pay (not the present tense). The bill was passed in late 2017, the article was in April 2019 before tax returns were filed, meaning the earliest possible data was available from the 2018 returns (not sure what they did with the 2020 update). My guess is that we are talking about 2016 numbers.

But the freaking article itself says:

"California's progressive tax structure means about 43,000 top-bracket residents earning more than $1 million a year will pay the lion's share of the SALT cap by contributing $9 billion more to Uncle Sam, according to FTB." Then the graph has a blue line, which shows the relative amount in tax increase and demonstrates that the folks over $1 million in salary take way more of the tax hit. It is pretty clear whose taxes went up, but you do have to ask yourself what percentage do those 43,000 represent of the millionaire taxpayers?

Dajo cleverly said look at this Times 2022 article which is quoting current numbers which everyone then compares with the 2016 or 2017 numbers in the table to draw conclusions. I don't think he did that deliberately, I probably would have done the same thing. So let's look at the numbers actually reported by FTB since there was a massive 50% plus increase in the number of millionaire taxpayers through 2021 rendering Dajo's comparison totally invalid (also the number of millionaire taxpayers went down in 2022 as the tech malaise and impact of C-19 hit). I think there were 72,500 millionaire taxpayers because that is what a Bloomberg article behind a paywall and another article here which I was able to read, but is also behind a paywall.
ocregister.comCalifornia added 37,010 million-dollar taxpayers in 5 years, most in USIn 2021, 109,480 Californians filed federal returns with million-dollar incomes No. 1 among the states and 18% of the US total.

Now when I divide 43,000 by 72,500, I get 59% plus of the millionaire taxpayers paid more taxes, and if you believe the blue line, they paid a lot more taxes.

if this doesn't convince you guys, then explain to me why state like California paid so much more in federal taxes relative to other states when income tax rates on the very wealthy dropped and CA has more millionaire taxpayers than anyone else? Read this article.

https://itep.org/final-gop-trump-bill-still-forces-california-and-new-york-to-shoulder-a-larger-share-of-federal-taxes-texas-florida-and-other-states-will-pay-less/





The LA Times article I linked very clearly said the data was from 2019.
Thank you for that admission that you did know that you didn't use the same years for comparison purposes. While you're examining the LA Times screw-up on the $500K dilemma, maybe you can explain why you didn't use the OC Register's numbers since they are supposed to be from the same source?




I also disagree with your definition of wealthy being about the top 100k of income earners in CA.
No, you are off a digit. It is a $ million year, and it is the definition of high wage earner. You never got that distinction between wage earners vs wealth down. I gave you evidence which you can't access, but I told you the numbers, and if you don't believe me or the OC Register you are welcome to search for own numbers. I'm sorry you were confused by the original article I gave you, and used non-comparable numbers. The bill took effect 3 years before the numbers you used and the article was written at a time before tax year you relied upon were not even filed, no less analogized by the FTB. You could just admit you f'd up. The problem is when I give you comparable numbers, you just say I can't access the article so I'm not convinced, and ignore the numbers. Fine, find your own numbers.

I tried another approach giving you an article by a well known non-partisan tax head organization and you don't comment on their findings. Here is another idea - why don't you look for comparable data. I don't have an obligation to support your assertion that I'm wrong. So far you have provided no detail other than what you think, and I doin't have an obligation to make your case for you that most high income people in CA got tax cuts, despite the experts saying otherwise. Tine for get off your butt and provide some actual evidence your assertion is correct. I'm willing to consider your information.



I odnlt and I have been doing all the work. Time for you to put up.
dajo9
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You're hilarious. You've posted 3 articles. The first claims some people's taxes went up. No argument here. The second is a bad link and uses a bad definition of wealthy or a bad definition of high income earner. Whatever you want to say it says. The third says high tax states will see higher taxes "relative to their share of the population". No argument here. I ignored it because it is not germane to the question.

Now you are doubling down on bad arguments, like you always do. Let's count your errors:
1) Being confused when I say about 100k of income earners as opposed to $100k of income.
2) Saying $1 mil is the definition of high wage earner. The IRS defines it as $200k.
https://smartasset.com/taxes/tax-saving-strategies-for-high-income-earners
3) You making a claim about income taxes and the wealthy. Me questioning your claim. You responding with an article about income instead of wealth. Then you claiming I'm struggling with those definitions.

Good luck proving your argument that Trump raised taxes on most wealthy people in high tax states. So far you've failed.
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:


You're hilarious. You've posted 3 articles. The first claims some people's taxes went up. No argument here. The second is a bad link and uses a bad definition of wealthy or a bad definition of high income earner. Whatever you want to say it says. The third says high tax states will see higher taxes "relative to their share of the population". No argument here. I ignored it because it is not germane to the question.

Now you are doubling down on bad arguments, like you always do. Let's count your errors:
1) Being confused when I say about 100k of income earners as opposed to $100k of income.
2) Saying $1 mil is the definition of high wage earner. The IRS defines it as $200k.
https://smartasset.com/taxes/tax-saving-strategies-for-high-income-earners
3) You making a claim about income taxes and the wealthy. Me questioning your claim. You responding with an article about income instead of wealth. Then you claiming I'm struggling with those definitions.

Good luck proving your argument that Trump raised taxes on most wealthy people in high tax states. So far you've failed.
Totally unresponsive.

You obviously don' understand the articles by the tax heads - not my fault.

You obviously can't provide comparable data to the first article posted, or read the article that does -also not my fault, all you can do is provide data from different time periods which I guess you don't understand is not comparable and wrong

You obviously don't understand why applying an IRS standard for what is high income taxpayer on a national basis to determine who is a high income taxpayer in California would be exceedingly stupid and wrong, even after posting an article on on how CA has 100,000 millionaire taxpayers, and how so far out of whack this income distribution is with most of the country.

You obviously, after being asked now three times now, can't provide any evidence to support your contention the most California high income taxpayers paid less taxes after the Trump tax bill came into effect.

This discussion is going no where and is a waste of time for anyone reading this thread. I'm moving on - I suggest you do the same.


million) didn't pay
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:


You're hilarious. You've posted 3 articles. The first claims some people's taxes went up. No argument here. The second is a bad link and uses a bad definition of wealthy or a bad definition of high income earner. Whatever you want to say it says. The third says high tax states will see higher taxes "relative to their share of the population". No argument here. I ignored it because it is not germane to the question.

Now you are doubling down on bad arguments, like you always do. Let's count your errors:
1) Being confused when I say about 100k of income earners as opposed to $100k of income.
2) Saying $1 mil is the definition of high wage earner. The IRS defines it as $200k.
https://smartasset.com/taxes/tax-saving-strategies-for-high-income-earners
3) You making a claim about income taxes and the wealthy. Me questioning your claim. You responding with an article about income instead of wealth. Then you claiming I'm struggling with those definitions.

Good luck proving your argument that Trump raised taxes on most wealthy people in high tax states. So far you've failed.
Totally unresponsive.

You obviously don' understand the articles by the tax heads - not my fault.

You obviously can't provide comparable data to the first article posted, or read the article that does -also not my fault, all you can do is provide data from different time periods which I guess you don't understand is not comparable and wrong

You obviously don't understand why applying an IRS standard for what is high income taxpayer on a national basis to determine who is a high income taxpayer in California would be exceedingly stupid and wrong, even after posting an article on on how CA has 100,000 millionaire taxpayers, and how so far out of whack this income distribution is with most of the country.

You obviously, after being asked now three times now, can't provide any evidence to support your contention the most California high income taxpayers paid less taxes after the Trump tax bill came into effect.

This discussion is going no where and is a waste of time for anyone reading this thread. I'm moving on - I suggest you do the same.


million) didn't pay


You obviously have nothing to support your claim. None of the articles you provided do so. They make tangential claims because trying to create a strawman is all you can do.
wifeisafurd
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wifeisafurd said:

It seemed like a run of the mill wonky tax case. The plaintiffs want to overturn a tax regime pushed by the Trump administration with bi-partisan support, dealing with the repatriation of foreign income, which has been a big issue for Presidential candidates of both party until this legislation.

Charles and Kathleen Moore challenge the repatriation tax, which applies to U.S. persons owning at least 10 percent of a controlled foreign corporation. It requires those U.S. shareholders to pay a one-time tax on the undistributed earnings and profits of the foreign corporation dating back to the end of 1986. The tax rate is 15.5 percent for earnings held in cash and 8 percent otherwise. In return, the US taxpayers don't have to pay taxes on the income brought to the US.

The Moores, who are do gooders that wanted to help the poor in India (and thus make an ideal plaintiff as opposed to companies like Apple that stashed billions of dollars in overseas affiliates), own slightly more than 10 percent of an Indian agricultural toolmaker named KisanKraft; they now seek a refund of the roughly $15,000 they paid under the mandatory repatriation tax. They argue that the mandatory repatriation tax lies outside the 16th Amendment's conception of income tax because it applies to earnings and profits accumulated by KisanKraft that were never distributed to shareholders. And because the mandatory repatriation tax isn't an income tax within the meaning of the 16th Amendment, the Moores say, Congress cannot levy the tax unless it apportions the burden among the states based on population. The Constitutional apportionment prohibition had to be amended by the 16th amendment to even allow for income taxes, and most tax experts believe that result would bar the imposition of wealth taxes.

The upshot is that for almost everyone except the Moores themselves, the outcome in the case matters less than the reasoning that the Justices embrace, and thus the case if full of amicus briefs debating accounting concepts and the wealth tax. But here are the two major concepts at play:

1) the tax does something unusual in that it requires payment of tax without receiving the income to pay the tax (e..g, realization), which tax practitioners hate as tax policy at its worst. For example, in this case, the Moores would have to sell their interest in KisanKraft to pay the tax. The Moore's rely chiefly on Eisner v. Macomber, in which SCOTUS held that the 16th Amendment did not allow Congress to tax a shareholder on the earnings of a corporation until the shareholder had "realized" those earnings (for example, through a cash dividend). That said, SCOTUS has held the Congress can generally have the power taxes. The Moores want the prior SCOTUS case overruled, to not allow taxations without realization. This would invalidate the few exceptions to the general income tax regimen that only tax realized income, and have implications for the ongoing budget negotiations. But if this conservative SCOTUS follows Macomber, there at least would be a narrow ruling, Congress can either increase the deficit, cut spending and/or raise taxes in some way. How it applied Macomber might also require anew tax regime on repatriation scheme. But it gets even more interesting because

2) Buried in the plaintiff's briefs was an argument that the mandatory repatriation tax stress-tests the income/wealth tax distinction (note the right in financing the case). The earnings and profits of this corporation are really the value of the stock (at least for the privately held corporations), and thus the tax is a disguised wealth tax which should be struct down under the prior SCOTUS decisions which disallowed income taxes and led to the 16th amendment. Moreover, they argue a wealth tax is, after all, a tax on all unconsumed items of income realized or not accruing to a taxpayer up to that point, and that the earnings and profits of the foreign entity which itself can't be taxed by the US have not accrued to the taxpayer in a way that they can consume (this disregards the approach used by some billionaires who borrow against assets). This alarmed the left that the case will allow SCOTUS the opportunity to bar wealth taxes (the article I'm attaching from Vox, which admittedly has some over the top commentary and sees conspiracies everywhere, does a good explaining the wealth tax issue). Then again, some other parti of the left has seen an opportunity with many liberal think tanks filing amicus briefs, that in fact this is a wealth tax and that earlier case law which led to the 16th Amendment should be overturned; thus, wealth taxes are legal. Given the predilection of SCOTUS, that might be a lot to swallow, but the strategy is to presumably have the liberal justices base their dissent on this reasoning should the majority go against them on more narrow grounds, in order to set in motion a move to validate wealth taxes as constitutional as the SCOTUS Justices change.

In any event, here are two articles from different perspectives on the case:

https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/11/27/23970859/supreme-court-wealth-tax-moore-united-states

The Vox article is good about what is at stake and why, but is factually lacking from a tax case analysis. For example Macomber, like the Moores, deals with a case where a minority shareholders who can't compel a dividend doesn't have income, but the opposing cases discussed by Vox deals involve wholly owned subs, where the courts expressly do not overrule Macomber, but just indicate the wholly owned entities issues constructive dividends to themselves through loans.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/us-wealth-tax-could-gain-footing-with-supreme-court-moore-ruling?utm_source=Email_Share (tax heads discuss)

Is a U.S. Wealth Tax Constitutional?Wall Street Journalhttps://www.wsj.com Opinion Review & Outlook
(view opposing Vox, with big busines bias)


How the Supreme Court Case Moore v. United States Could ...YouTube Urban Institute1 hour, 57 minutes, 18 secondsSep 22, 2023. (really major tax heads discussing the case to death for those who are disturbing into tax policy stuff)




SCOTUS held its hearing on the case and it appeared only two judges wanted to discuss the wealth tax. I guess the folks at Vox can relax. It appears that the case likely will be determined on a much more limited scope.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/listen-live-supreme-court-hears-case-on-taxation-which-could-affect-possible-wealth-tax
dimitrig
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd said:

wifeisafurd said:

It seemed like a run of the mill wonky tax case. The plaintiffs want to overturn a tax regime pushed by the Trump administration with bi-partisan support, dealing with the repatriation of foreign income, which has been a big issue for Presidential candidates of both party until this legislation.

Charles and Kathleen Moore challenge the repatriation tax, which applies to U.S. persons owning at least 10 percent of a controlled foreign corporation. It requires those U.S. shareholders to pay a one-time tax on the undistributed earnings and profits of the foreign corporation dating back to the end of 1986. The tax rate is 15.5 percent for earnings held in cash and 8 percent otherwise. In return, the US taxpayers don't have to pay taxes on the income brought to the US.

The Moores, who are do gooders that wanted to help the poor in India (and thus make an ideal plaintiff as opposed to companies like Apple that stashed billions of dollars in overseas affiliates), own slightly more than 10 percent of an Indian agricultural toolmaker named KisanKraft; they now seek a refund of the roughly $15,000 they paid under the mandatory repatriation tax. They argue that the mandatory repatriation tax lies outside the 16th Amendment's conception of income tax because it applies to earnings and profits accumulated by KisanKraft that were never distributed to shareholders. And because the mandatory repatriation tax isn't an income tax within the meaning of the 16th Amendment, the Moores say, Congress cannot levy the tax unless it apportions the burden among the states based on population. The Constitutional apportionment prohibition had to be amended by the 16th amendment to even allow for income taxes, and most tax experts believe that result would bar the imposition of wealth taxes.

The upshot is that for almost everyone except the Moores themselves, the outcome in the case matters less than the reasoning that the Justices embrace, and thus the case if full of amicus briefs debating accounting concepts and the wealth tax. But here are the two major concepts at play:

1) the tax does something unusual in that it requires payment of tax without receiving the income to pay the tax (e..g, realization), which tax practitioners hate as tax policy at its worst. For example, in this case, the Moores would have to sell their interest in KisanKraft to pay the tax. The Moore's rely chiefly on Eisner v. Macomber, in which SCOTUS held that the 16th Amendment did not allow Congress to tax a shareholder on the earnings of a corporation until the shareholder had "realized" those earnings (for example, through a cash dividend). That said, SCOTUS has held the Congress can generally have the power taxes. The Moores want the prior SCOTUS case overruled, to not allow taxations without realization. This would invalidate the few exceptions to the general income tax regimen that only tax realized income, and have implications for the ongoing budget negotiations. But if this conservative SCOTUS follows Macomber, there at least would be a narrow ruling, Congress can either increase the deficit, cut spending and/or raise taxes in some way. How it applied Macomber might also require anew tax regime on repatriation scheme. But it gets even more interesting because

2) Buried in the plaintiff's briefs was an argument that the mandatory repatriation tax stress-tests the income/wealth tax distinction (note the right in financing the case). The earnings and profits of this corporation are really the value of the stock (at least for the privately held corporations), and thus the tax is a disguised wealth tax which should be struct down under the prior SCOTUS decisions which disallowed income taxes and led to the 16th amendment. Moreover, they argue a wealth tax is, after all, a tax on all unconsumed items of income realized or not accruing to a taxpayer up to that point, and that the earnings and profits of the foreign entity which itself can't be taxed by the US have not accrued to the taxpayer in a way that they can consume (this disregards the approach used by some billionaires who borrow against assets). This alarmed the left that the case will allow SCOTUS the opportunity to bar wealth taxes (the article I'm attaching from Vox, which admittedly has some over the top commentary and sees conspiracies everywhere, does a good explaining the wealth tax issue). Then again, some other parti of the left has seen an opportunity with many liberal think tanks filing amicus briefs, that in fact this is a wealth tax and that earlier case law which led to the 16th Amendment should be overturned; thus, wealth taxes are legal. Given the predilection of SCOTUS, that might be a lot to swallow, but the strategy is to presumably have the liberal justices base their dissent on this reasoning should the majority go against them on more narrow grounds, in order to set in motion a move to validate wealth taxes as constitutional as the SCOTUS Justices change.

In any event, here are two articles from different perspectives on the case:

https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/11/27/23970859/supreme-court-wealth-tax-moore-united-states

The Vox article is good about what is at stake and why, but is factually lacking from a tax case analysis. For example Macomber, like the Moores, deals with a case where a minority shareholders who can't compel a dividend doesn't have income, but the opposing cases discussed by Vox deals involve wholly owned subs, where the courts expressly do not overrule Macomber, but just indicate the wholly owned entities issues constructive dividends to themselves through loans.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/us-wealth-tax-could-gain-footing-with-supreme-court-moore-ruling?utm_source=Email_Share (tax heads discuss)

Is a U.S. Wealth Tax Constitutional?Wall Street Journalhttps://www.wsj.com Opinion Review & Outlook
(view opposing Vox, with big busines bias)


How the Supreme Court Case Moore v. United States Could ...YouTube Urban Institute1 hour, 57 minutes, 18 secondsSep 22, 2023. (really major tax heads discussing the case to death for those who are disturbing into tax policy stuff)




SCOTUS held its hearing on the case and it appeared only two judges wanted to discuss the wealth tax. I guess the folks at Vox can relax. It appears that the case likely will be determined on a much more limited scope.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/listen-live-supreme-court-hears-case-on-taxation-which-could-affect-possible-wealth-tax

Which two?

wifeisafurd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

wifeisafurd said:

It seemed like a run of the mill wonky tax case. The plaintiffs want to overturn a tax regime pushed by the Trump administration with bi-partisan support, dealing with the repatriation of foreign income, which has been a big issue for Presidential candidates of both party until this legislation.

Charles and Kathleen Moore challenge the repatriation tax, which applies to U.S. persons owning at least 10 percent of a controlled foreign corporation. It requires those U.S. shareholders to pay a one-time tax on the undistributed earnings and profits of the foreign corporation dating back to the end of 1986. The tax rate is 15.5 percent for earnings held in cash and 8 percent otherwise. In return, the US taxpayers don't have to pay taxes on the income brought to the US.

The Moores, who are do gooders that wanted to help the poor in India (and thus make an ideal plaintiff as opposed to companies like Apple that stashed billions of dollars in overseas affiliates), own slightly more than 10 percent of an Indian agricultural toolmaker named KisanKraft; they now seek a refund of the roughly $15,000 they paid under the mandatory repatriation tax. They argue that the mandatory repatriation tax lies outside the 16th Amendment's conception of income tax because it applies to earnings and profits accumulated by KisanKraft that were never distributed to shareholders. And because the mandatory repatriation tax isn't an income tax within the meaning of the 16th Amendment, the Moores say, Congress cannot levy the tax unless it apportions the burden among the states based on population. The Constitutional apportionment prohibition had to be amended by the 16th amendment to even allow for income taxes, and most tax experts believe that result would bar the imposition of wealth taxes.

The upshot is that for almost everyone except the Moores themselves, the outcome in the case matters less than the reasoning that the Justices embrace, and thus the case if full of amicus briefs debating accounting concepts and the wealth tax. But here are the two major concepts at play:

1) the tax does something unusual in that it requires payment of tax without receiving the income to pay the tax (e..g, realization), which tax practitioners hate as tax policy at its worst. For example, in this case, the Moores would have to sell their interest in KisanKraft to pay the tax. The Moore's rely chiefly on Eisner v. Macomber, in which SCOTUS held that the 16th Amendment did not allow Congress to tax a shareholder on the earnings of a corporation until the shareholder had "realized" those earnings (for example, through a cash dividend). That said, SCOTUS has held the Congress can generally have the power taxes. The Moores want the prior SCOTUS case overruled, to not allow taxations without realization. This would invalidate the few exceptions to the general income tax regimen that only tax realized income, and have implications for the ongoing budget negotiations. But if this conservative SCOTUS follows Macomber, there at least would be a narrow ruling, Congress can either increase the deficit, cut spending and/or raise taxes in some way. How it applied Macomber might also require anew tax regime on repatriation scheme. But it gets even more interesting because

2) Buried in the plaintiff's briefs was an argument that the mandatory repatriation tax stress-tests the income/wealth tax distinction (note the right in financing the case). The earnings and profits of this corporation are really the value of the stock (at least for the privately held corporations), and thus the tax is a disguised wealth tax which should be struct down under the prior SCOTUS decisions which disallowed income taxes and led to the 16th amendment. Moreover, they argue a wealth tax is, after all, a tax on all unconsumed items of income realized or not accruing to a taxpayer up to that point, and that the earnings and profits of the foreign entity which itself can't be taxed by the US have not accrued to the taxpayer in a way that they can consume (this disregards the approach used by some billionaires who borrow against assets). This alarmed the left that the case will allow SCOTUS the opportunity to bar wealth taxes (the article I'm attaching from Vox, which admittedly has some over the top commentary and sees conspiracies everywhere, does a good explaining the wealth tax issue). Then again, some other parti of the left has seen an opportunity with many liberal think tanks filing amicus briefs, that in fact this is a wealth tax and that earlier case law which led to the 16th Amendment should be overturned; thus, wealth taxes are legal. Given the predilection of SCOTUS, that might be a lot to swallow, but the strategy is to presumably have the liberal justices base their dissent on this reasoning should the majority go against them on more narrow grounds, in order to set in motion a move to validate wealth taxes as constitutional as the SCOTUS Justices change.

In any event, here are two articles from different perspectives on the case:

https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/11/27/23970859/supreme-court-wealth-tax-moore-united-states

The Vox article is good about what is at stake and why, but is factually lacking from a tax case analysis. For example Macomber, like the Moores, deals with a case where a minority shareholders who can't compel a dividend doesn't have income, but the opposing cases discussed by Vox deals involve wholly owned subs, where the courts expressly do not overrule Macomber, but just indicate the wholly owned entities issues constructive dividends to themselves through loans.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/us-wealth-tax-could-gain-footing-with-supreme-court-moore-ruling?utm_source=Email_Share (tax heads discuss)

Is a U.S. Wealth Tax Constitutional?Wall Street Journalhttps://www.wsj.com Opinion Review & Outlook
(view opposing Vox, with big busines bias)


How the Supreme Court Case Moore v. United States Could ...YouTube Urban Institute1 hour, 57 minutes, 18 secondsSep 22, 2023. (really major tax heads discussing the case to death for those who are disturbing into tax policy stuff)




SCOTUS held its hearing on the case and it appeared only two judges wanted to discuss the wealth tax. I guess the folks at Vox can relax. It appears that the case likely will be determined on a much more limited scope.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/listen-live-supreme-court-hears-case-on-taxation-which-could-affect-possible-wealth-tax

Which two?


Alioto and Kavanaugh, though Kavanaugh also made a big point that you didn't have to overrule wealth taxes to find for the taxpayer. Gorsuch said at the end of debate that there seemed to be a consensus to rule on some narrow ground.
dimitrig
How long do you want to ignore this user?
wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

wifeisafurd said:

It seemed like a run of the mill wonky tax case. The plaintiffs want to overturn a tax regime pushed by the Trump administration with bi-partisan support, dealing with the repatriation of foreign income, which has been a big issue for Presidential candidates of both party until this legislation.

Charles and Kathleen Moore challenge the repatriation tax, which applies to U.S. persons owning at least 10 percent of a controlled foreign corporation. It requires those U.S. shareholders to pay a one-time tax on the undistributed earnings and profits of the foreign corporation dating back to the end of 1986. The tax rate is 15.5 percent for earnings held in cash and 8 percent otherwise. In return, the US taxpayers don't have to pay taxes on the income brought to the US.

The Moores, who are do gooders that wanted to help the poor in India (and thus make an ideal plaintiff as opposed to companies like Apple that stashed billions of dollars in overseas affiliates), own slightly more than 10 percent of an Indian agricultural toolmaker named KisanKraft; they now seek a refund of the roughly $15,000 they paid under the mandatory repatriation tax. They argue that the mandatory repatriation tax lies outside the 16th Amendment's conception of income tax because it applies to earnings and profits accumulated by KisanKraft that were never distributed to shareholders. And because the mandatory repatriation tax isn't an income tax within the meaning of the 16th Amendment, the Moores say, Congress cannot levy the tax unless it apportions the burden among the states based on population. The Constitutional apportionment prohibition had to be amended by the 16th amendment to even allow for income taxes, and most tax experts believe that result would bar the imposition of wealth taxes.

The upshot is that for almost everyone except the Moores themselves, the outcome in the case matters less than the reasoning that the Justices embrace, and thus the case if full of amicus briefs debating accounting concepts and the wealth tax. But here are the two major concepts at play:

1) the tax does something unusual in that it requires payment of tax without receiving the income to pay the tax (e..g, realization), which tax practitioners hate as tax policy at its worst. For example, in this case, the Moores would have to sell their interest in KisanKraft to pay the tax. The Moore's rely chiefly on Eisner v. Macomber, in which SCOTUS held that the 16th Amendment did not allow Congress to tax a shareholder on the earnings of a corporation until the shareholder had "realized" those earnings (for example, through a cash dividend). That said, SCOTUS has held the Congress can generally have the power taxes. The Moores want the prior SCOTUS case overruled, to not allow taxations without realization. This would invalidate the few exceptions to the general income tax regimen that only tax realized income, and have implications for the ongoing budget negotiations. But if this conservative SCOTUS follows Macomber, there at least would be a narrow ruling, Congress can either increase the deficit, cut spending and/or raise taxes in some way. How it applied Macomber might also require anew tax regime on repatriation scheme. But it gets even more interesting because

2) Buried in the plaintiff's briefs was an argument that the mandatory repatriation tax stress-tests the income/wealth tax distinction (note the right in financing the case). The earnings and profits of this corporation are really the value of the stock (at least for the privately held corporations), and thus the tax is a disguised wealth tax which should be struct down under the prior SCOTUS decisions which disallowed income taxes and led to the 16th amendment. Moreover, they argue a wealth tax is, after all, a tax on all unconsumed items of income realized or not accruing to a taxpayer up to that point, and that the earnings and profits of the foreign entity which itself can't be taxed by the US have not accrued to the taxpayer in a way that they can consume (this disregards the approach used by some billionaires who borrow against assets). This alarmed the left that the case will allow SCOTUS the opportunity to bar wealth taxes (the article I'm attaching from Vox, which admittedly has some over the top commentary and sees conspiracies everywhere, does a good explaining the wealth tax issue). Then again, some other parti of the left has seen an opportunity with many liberal think tanks filing amicus briefs, that in fact this is a wealth tax and that earlier case law which led to the 16th Amendment should be overturned; thus, wealth taxes are legal. Given the predilection of SCOTUS, that might be a lot to swallow, but the strategy is to presumably have the liberal justices base their dissent on this reasoning should the majority go against them on more narrow grounds, in order to set in motion a move to validate wealth taxes as constitutional as the SCOTUS Justices change.

In any event, here are two articles from different perspectives on the case:

https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/11/27/23970859/supreme-court-wealth-tax-moore-united-states

The Vox article is good about what is at stake and why, but is factually lacking from a tax case analysis. For example Macomber, like the Moores, deals with a case where a minority shareholders who can't compel a dividend doesn't have income, but the opposing cases discussed by Vox deals involve wholly owned subs, where the courts expressly do not overrule Macomber, but just indicate the wholly owned entities issues constructive dividends to themselves through loans.

https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/us-wealth-tax-could-gain-footing-with-supreme-court-moore-ruling?utm_source=Email_Share (tax heads discuss)

Is a U.S. Wealth Tax Constitutional?Wall Street Journalhttps://www.wsj.com Opinion Review & Outlook
(view opposing Vox, with big busines bias)


How the Supreme Court Case Moore v. United States Could ...YouTube Urban Institute1 hour, 57 minutes, 18 secondsSep 22, 2023. (really major tax heads discussing the case to death for those who are disturbing into tax policy stuff)




SCOTUS held its hearing on the case and it appeared only two judges wanted to discuss the wealth tax. I guess the folks at Vox can relax. It appears that the case likely will be determined on a much more limited scope.https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/listen-live-supreme-court-hears-case-on-taxation-which-could-affect-possible-wealth-tax

Which two?


Alioto and Kavanaugh, though Kavanaugh also made a big point that you didn't have to overrule wealth taxes to find for the taxpayer. Gorsuch said at the end of debate that there seemed to be a consensus to rule on some narrow ground.


Thanks. I read the article but I didn't see in there how the justices voted. (Do they vote to take a case?)
sp4149
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
When the tax cut went into effect in 2017 i was retired, recently widowed, turned 70, lost $17,000
in deductions.
Also the tax rate for each adjusted gross income bracket had been increased, not decreased , as the Republicans promoted.
My taxes doubled.
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sp4149 said:

dajo9 said:

wifeisafurd said:

dajo9 said:

dimitrig said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Great post, appreciate the work that went into it.

Question - This sort of reminds me of the ACA lawsuit about the mandate which SCOTUS had to dance around to avoid killing all of the ACA.

Would they have to invalidate the entire TJCA if they remove this tax? I recall it was passed under reconciliation and that the few tax additions like this were needed to make it barely passable under the rules. Without the repatriation tax, wouldn't the TJCA have required a normal vote and been subject to a filibuster?

If this is eliminated but the rest of the ACA stands, can Congress just add in obviously unconstitutional taxes in order to get a tax cuts through reconciliation?

The TJCA was bad for Californians (and the federal deficit) so I hope the whole thing is repealed but my guess is that it will stay in place no matter what.

One reason that this inflation really hurts is that even though my income is a lot higher than when TJCA was passed my take home is the same because my taxes went way up. Effing Republicans.






One of the things the TCJA did was change the way inflation is calculated so brackets increase more slowly. This was done to gradually increase the tax of average Americans so they wouldn't notice. When most of the TCJA expires the corporate tax cuts remain offset by this stealth inflation tax put on average Americans.
Well the income taxes for most wealthy taxpayers in CA and most high tax states went-up. Which is anti-inflationary and also slows economic growth at a time when everyone was trying to stimulate the economy.


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
When the tax cut went into effect in 2017 i was retired, recently widowed, turned 70, lost $17,000
in deductions.
Also the tax rate for each adjusted gross income bracket had been increased, not decreased , as the Republicans promoted.
My taxes doubled.


Are you wealthy in terms of income? Because if not, we aren't talking about you.

I have no doubt Traitor Trump's tax law raised taxes on many middle class or upper middle class people. But if your income is high enough, the reduced rates at higher levels more than offset the loss of deductions.

The rich get richer in Traitor Trump's tax plan. Even in blue states.
sp4149
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dajo9 said:

sp4149 said:

dajo9 said:


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
When the tax cut went into effect in 2017 i was retired, recently widowed, turned 70, lost $17,000
in deductions.
Also the tax rate for each adjusted gross income bracket had been increased, not decreased , as the Republicans promoted.
My taxes doubled.


Are you wealthy in terms of income? Because if not, we aren't talking about you.

I have no doubt Traitor Trump's tax law raised taxes on many middle class or upper middle class people. But if your income is high enough, the reduced rates at higher levels more than offset the loss of deductions.

The rich get richer in Traitor Trump's tax plan. Even in blue states.
I checked the tax tables for 2016 and 2017 and the rates for the same adjusted gross income actually went up. Losing all my deductions actually moved me up two tax brackets. The highest bracket was eliminated, so the highest earners went down to a lower rate. For tax payers in states without income tax they moved into a lower Adjusted Gross income bracket and saved money. The point of GOP taxes is to tax the greatest number, letting the few truly wealthy to slide by.
dajo9
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sp4149 said:

dajo9 said:

sp4149 said:

dajo9 said:


I don't believe that is true. Do you have data to support it? I am a "wealthy" person in high tax New Jersey and Trump's tax cuts most definitely cut my taxes despite me no longer using SALT deductions.
When the tax cut went into effect in 2017 i was retired, recently widowed, turned 70, lost $17,000
in deductions.
Also the tax rate for each adjusted gross income bracket had been increased, not decreased , as the Republicans promoted.
My taxes doubled.


Are you wealthy in terms of income? Because if not, we aren't talking about you.

I have no doubt Traitor Trump's tax law raised taxes on many middle class or upper middle class people. But if your income is high enough, the reduced rates at higher levels more than offset the loss of deductions.

The rich get richer in Traitor Trump's tax plan. Even in blue states.
I checked the tax tables for 2016 and 2017 and the rates for the same adjusted gross income actually went up. Losing all my deductions actually moved me up two tax brackets. The highest bracket was eliminated, so the highest earners went down to a lower rate. For tax payers in states without income tax they moved into a lower Adjusted Gross income bracket and saved money. The point of GOP taxes is to tax the greatest number, letting the few truly wealthy to slide by.


I think we are in agreement
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