Peggy Noonan: Post Mortem

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DiabloWags
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10:59a, 11/10/24
Another good read by Peggy...

Turning The Page

"People voted for a path. Not a person"

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-triumph-for-trumps-republicans-election-2024-america-becoming-more-conservative-048e54c5?st=7rpxgx&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink



"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
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bear2034
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12:02p, 11/10/24
Seems fair coming from Peggy but I just have two points to pick:

1. "America, after its long journey through the 2010s and '20s, is becoming more conservative again."

It's not so much that America chose conservativism, but as Trump mentioned, Americans chose "common sense". The Democrats have moved to the left since Obama and even further left under Biden to the point they've become extremists. Peggy dances around this by mentioning how the party lost their identity and how the Republicans now stand for what the Democrats previously stood for. She never mentioned the incessant lawfare, the raid on Mar-a-Lago, and the soft coup of their own duly elected presidential candidate, Joe Biden, all done in the name of saving our democracy.

2. Why quote the great Liz Cheney at the end? Liz will be investigated for actions taken while on the J6 select committee. Bringing Liz Cheney in to show support for Kamala's campaign was disastrous for the Democrats.
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bearister
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In reply to bear2034 • 12:31p, 11/10/24
Is there a BI pool where we can bet on whether Liz Cheney gets convicted? All bets off if Sixth Amendment suspended and it is trial by tribunal.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to bearister • 12:42p, 11/10/24
bearister said:
Is there a BI pool where we can bet on whether Liz Cheney gets convicted? All bets off if Sixth Amendment suspended and it is trial by tribunal.
It would be a real shame if Liz became subject to the same lawfare she unleashed on Trump.

There are reports she violated ethical rules as applied to attorneys (not clear they apply to a member of congress) and may have falsified/altered evidence. If those are true, then why shouldn't she be given the same treatment as others?
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to bearister • 12:44p, 11/10/24
bearister said:
Is there a BI pool where we can bet on whether Liz Cheney gets convicted? All bets off if Sixth Amendment suspended and it is trial by tribunal.


Better yet- in the fashion of Dad- she's sent to Gitmo in a black bag or- be still my heart- tossed out of an airplane
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DiabloWags
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1:34p, 11/10/24
As for Kamala Harris, Mr. Trump in 2020 lost the Catholic vote. This year he carried it with a healthy 56%.
That'll teach her to blow off the Al Smith dinner.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
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bearister
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In reply to DiabloWags • 1:56p, 11/10/24
Irish Catholic Mass goer here. With that said, the Right Wing think they are going to save the Church. There will be nothing left to save:

Diocese of Oakland proposes $117 million-plus fund in clergy sex abuse deal; victims' attorneys call it 'a scam and a sham'


https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/09/diocese-of-oakland-proposes-117-million-plus-fund-in-clergy-sex-abuse-deal-victims-attorneys-call-it-a-scam-and-a-sham/

*The Church pulled the Triple Crown:
Rape the kids-Move the rapists around-Hide the money from the rape victims.

*tRump's yuck yuck buddy, Cardinal Tim Dolan, tried to squirrel away $57,000,000 from child rape victims by hiding it in a cemetery fund when he was running the Diocese of Milwaukee. A pairing made in Heaven, Right Wing Catholics and tRump. I would refuse to attend any function where Dolan was in attendance.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
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Big C
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In reply to DiabloWags • 2:08p, 11/10/24
DiabloWags said:
Another good read by Peggy...

Turning The Page

"People voted for a path. Not a person"

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-triumph-for-trumps-republicans-election-2024-america-becoming-more-conservative-048e54c5?st=7rpxgx&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink


It was a good read. I agree and disagree with some of her points.

One ad that the Trump campaign ran was especially effective, IMO: A younger Harris pledges free gender-affirming care for prisoners. "Kamala is for they/them. Trump is for you." Ouch.

I thought Harris, personally, did pretty well since July -- coulda been way worse -- but there were some questions that she avoided, instead of being able to answer them solidly. She and Biden should've made a little agreement where she felt free to throw him part way under the bus (wink-wink, nudge-nudge), for the sake of being elected.

Trump made mistakes left and right, but in the debate with Biden and in the assassination attempt, he came across (to many) as a strong leader.
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DiabloWags
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In reply to Big C • 2:25p, 11/10/24
Harris didn't attract the number of Latino and Black voters that Biden did.
That was clearly a problem.

She wasn't that great of a candidate and if there was a Primary she probably would have not been nominated. She came from a very blue state and appeared to be out of touch with Middle American voters.

Biggest difference this time around for Trump was that he really got the young people vote, especially that of young men. (see below). Harris' campaign managers held a lot of rallies at college campuses, but they forgot about all of the young men out there in the trades who never made it to college. They were at Pittsburg Steelers games and the Democratic Party wasn't reaching them with their strategy.

On a side note, quintessential Liberals who are enclosed in the "professional class bubble" put their head in the sand and are dismissive of the heart of midwestern working class values and the insight of someone like Peggy Noonan are typical of the elites that ran Harris' campaign into a devastating loss and one that now reverberates across both side of the aisle. The kind of people that used the "Obama 2009" playbook. At the end of the day, as a liberal Democrat, you just can't chalk this loss across the board to not getting your message out. Your message never resonated with voters in the swing states period.

The Blue Wall is gone.

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DiabloWags
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3:42p, 11/10/24
Another view.

Mr. Teixeira, 72, is a longtime Democrat who is distraught about the direction his party has taken. In 2002, he and John Judis published "The Emerging Democratic Majority," which predicted a dominant future for his party. It didn't come to pass. Two decades later he resigned from his fellowship at the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning Washington think tank that had become a cauldron of woke conformity, and joined the center-right American Enterprise Institute, of which I am also a fellow.

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-democrat-ponders-a-thumping-rebuke-party-chose-hard-left-cultural-issues-over-progressive-centrism-ed02e17f?st=KQ58KR&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink



Illustration of Guy Teixeira by Barabara Kelley

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DiabloWags
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3:47p, 11/10/24
From the above article by Tunku Varadarajan:

Mr. Teixeira cites a 2023 book, "Party of the People," by GOP pollster Patrick Ruffini, and says that the Republican-leaning "populist, multiracial, working-class coalition" is "a real thing, and it's here to stay." He says we're seeing "the decline of racial polarization and an increase in class polarization."

That's a horror story for the Democrats. Mr. Teixeira, whose father was a Portuguese immigrant, says the Democratic values that repel blue-collar Americans of all races have opened a rift with the elites who reside in postindustrial "ideopolises." Ms. Harris and her party were "heavily overindexed on liberal cultural issues, and were even using a language that was inimical to a lot of these voters." The Democrats "pooh-poohed concerns about crime and immigration, and thought their 'enlightened' views about race, gender, abortion and climate were saleable to most members of the voting public." Mr. Trump's comeback proves they weren't.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
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bear2034
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In reply to Big C • 4:04p, 11/10/24
Big C said:
DiabloWags said:
Another good read by Peggy...

Turning The Page

"People voted for a path. Not a person"

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-triumph-for-trumps-republicans-election-2024-america-becoming-more-conservative-048e54c5?st=7rpxgx&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink


It was a good read. I agree and disagree with some of her points.

One ad that the Trump campaign ran was especially effective, IMO: A younger Harris pledges free gender-affirming care for prisoners. "Kamala is for they/them. Trump is for you." Ouch.

I thought Harris, personally, did pretty well since July -- coulda been way worse -- but there were some questions that she avoided, instead of being able to answer them solidly. She and Biden should've made a little agreement where she felt free to throw him part way under the bus (wink-wink, nudge-nudge), for the sake of being elected.

Trump made mistakes left and right, but in the debate with Biden and in the assassination attempt, he came across (to many) as a strong leader.

Kamala had a very short time to put a working campaign staff together so I agree, it was impressive considering what she had to work with. She was also put in a very tough and awkward position. Do you separate yourself from your current boss and pave your own way or do you remain loyal to the team? How do you criticize a sitting president from your own party and expect to receive support?
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MinotStateBeav
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5:54p, 11/10/24
I can't remember which democrat party member said it, but after the election he said something to the effect "Democrats are really good at sticking to their talking points, we have a real problem just talking off the cuff because we are a party that is scared to say the wrong thing, offend the wrong group and then you will find yourself on the outside, I can only think of 2 or 3 congress members I would trust to be able to go on Joe Rogan."

That's a damning indictment. How can you show the voters you understand them, if you can't be a normal person and use the same language they do. Fetterman is surprisingly very very good at being a normal guy. Only other person I can think of is Ro Khanna and maybe Manchin who is now on the outs.
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Anarchistbear
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6:01p, 11/10/24
They voted for Trump and disruption not a path; just like they voted for Reagan' and Obama and a path- Morning in America and Hope and Change. The candidates embody the message. The "our democracy is at stake" nonsense didn't play because Trump already has been a rather inconsequential President.

We're in an era where there is a big disconnect between the peoples' desires and the politicians actions. People are hugely pissed and cynical. Working people want more wages and health care. Politicians want more health care lobby dollars. Trump offers disruption but no solutions

So, in two years I expect the Dems will win the House back and we'll enter another cycle because nothing will be done
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to Big C • 6:10p, 11/10/24
Big C said:
DiabloWags said:
Another good read by Peggy...

Turning The Page

"People voted for a path. Not a person"

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-triumph-for-trumps-republicans-election-2024-america-becoming-more-conservative-048e54c5?st=7rpxgx&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink


It was a good read. I agree and disagree with some of her points.

One ad that the Trump campaign ran was especially effective, IMO: A younger Harris pledges free gender-affirming care for prisoners. "Kamala is for they/them. Trump is for you." Ouch.

I thought Harris, personally, did pretty well since July -- coulda been way worse -- but there were some questions that she avoided, instead of being able to answer them solidly. She and Biden should've made a little agreement where she felt free to throw him part way under the bus (wink-wink, nudge-nudge), for the sake of being elected.

Trump made mistakes left and right, but in the debate with Biden and in the assassination attempt, he came across (to many) as a strong leader.


A big problem is most of the country does not share a rosy view of California politicians. I spend a few months a year out of state and that Kamala trans gender sex change ad ran constantly. Now I don't know the context but her words are bat **** crazy. And this is the thing- California Dems have no competition so can walk out in cloud cuckoo lane without a rope but put them in Iowa and they look like aliens.

Kamala did a better job than 2020 of making herself seem normal but it was still a fail. When somebody asks you what you would do differently than someone with a 35% approval rating, "I can't think of anything " isn't the answer
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 7:09p, 11/10/24
I live in very Blue Oregon, right next door to one of the rare competitive Congressional districts. That ad ran regularly. I was very surprised money was spent on it here - where Trump wouldn't even spend $500 to have a statement in the voter guide.
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GoOskie
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 7:18p, 11/10/24
Anarchistbear said:
Big C said:
DiabloWags said:
Another good read by Peggy...

Turning The Page

"People voted for a path. Not a person"

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/a-triumph-for-trumps-republicans-election-2024-america-becoming-more-conservative-048e54c5?st=7rpxgx&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink


It was a good read. I agree and disagree with some of her points.

One ad that the Trump campaign ran was especially effective, IMO: A younger Harris pledges free gender-affirming care for prisoners. "Kamala is for they/them. Trump is for you." Ouch.

I thought Harris, personally, did pretty well since July -- coulda been way worse -- but there were some questions that she avoided, instead of being able to answer them solidly. She and Biden should've made a little agreement where she felt free to throw him part way under the bus (wink-wink, nudge-nudge), for the sake of being elected.

Trump made mistakes left and right, but in the debate with Biden and in the assassination attempt, he came across (to many) as a strong leader.


A big problem is most of the country does not share a rosy view of California politicians.
No more women on the ticket. Sad to say it's just too risky. Add on top of that a women of color, and from California.

But Gretchen, I still have my eyes on you baby!
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 7:21p, 11/10/24
tequila4kapp said:
I live in very Blue Oregon, right next door to one of the rare competitive Congressional districts. That ad ran regularly. I was very surprised money was spent on it here - where Trump wouldn't even spend $500 to have a statement in the voter guide.
We're not THAT blue. I would say Oregon is far more moderate that leans left. Obviously Portland is a bit more of an outlier in that respect to the rest of state. Salem is bit more red.
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bearister
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7:31p, 11/10/24
"There will be a peaceful transfer of power. "

I wonder why Noonan did not point out that this only occurred because tRump won. Since he announced the Election had to be rigged if he lost, no one thought things would be peaceful had that happened. I find that a significant point, she didn't.

"Tens of millions of people who didn't like Donald Trump voted for the path he promised."

Fair enough. tRump has made a lot of promises in his life. Let's see if he delivers.

Of the Democratic Party Noonan says:

" …..it needs a rising moderating force…."

Does she think her own party could use a moderating force or is she good with the direction it is pointing in?

"As for me, I don't like the SOB, I think him a bad man who'll cause and bungle crises almost from day one.."

I'm on the same page with her here. This is her covering her @$$ and disavowing.


Noonan is also covering her @$$ here:

"I like what Liz Cheney tweeted Wednesday: "Our nation's democratic system functioned last night and we have a new President-elect. All Americans are bound, whether we like the outcome or not, to accept the results." We also have a responsibility as members of "the greatest nation on earth" to "support and defend our Constitution, preserve the rule of law, and ensure that our institutions hold over these coming four years." She singled out the courts, the press, "and those serving in our federal, state and local governments" to be "the guardrails of democracy."

Noonan knows this is in jeopardy. The rule of law and the guardrails of democracy are considered impediments to tRump and Musk, constraining them from doing what they want to do.


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tequila4kapp
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 8:17p, 11/10/24
MinotStateBeav said:
tequila4kapp said:
I live in very Blue Oregon, right next door to one of the rare competitive Congressional districts. That ad ran regularly. I was very surprised money was spent on it here - where Trump wouldn't even spend $500 to have a statement in the voter guide.
We're not THAT blue. I would say Oregon is far more moderate that leans left. Obviously Portland is a bit more of an outlier in that respect to the rest of state. Salem is bit more red.
Are you kidding me? Both Senators, 5/6 House members in the new Congress, both chamber of the state legislature (51/36 margin), the governor and every other state wide office are D. We have not had a Republican governor in 37 years.

There's a reason the eastern quadrant of the state wants to join Idaho. Take them away and this is the bluest state in the nation.
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 6:30a, 11/11/24
tequila4kapp said:
MinotStateBeav said:
tequila4kapp said:
I live in very Blue Oregon, right next door to one of the rare competitive Congressional districts. That ad ran regularly. I was very surprised money was spent on it here - where Trump wouldn't even spend $500 to have a statement in the voter guide.
We're not THAT blue. I would say Oregon is far more moderate that leans left. Obviously Portland is a bit more of an outlier in that respect to the rest of state. Salem is bit more red.
Are you kidding me? Both Senators, 5/6 House members in the new Congress, both chamber of the state legislature (51/36 margin), the governor and every other state wide office are D. We have not had a Republican governor in 37 years.

There's a reason the eastern quadrant of the state wants to join Idaho. Take them away and this is the bluest state in the nation.
Lori Chavez DeReamer was a terrible senator. She lost because she kept constantly backstabbing Trump in the senate. She was riding Mitch McConnells coattails. I was so displeased I voted for the libertarian candidate hah. I do think a lot of Californians are moving into Central Oregon and this area is turning a lot more (D). But the republican candidates in Oregon are very RINO for some reason. I think a lot of em are just democrats using the R party to get funding to run. There is some terrible vetting of candidates.

Eastern Oregon will never get to break off because it would take an act of congress, never happening.
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DiabloWags
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 8:27a, 11/11/24
Anarchistbear said:



A big problem is most of the country does not share a rosy view of California politicians. I spend a few months a year out of state and that Kamala trans gender sex change ad ran constantly. Now I don't know the context but her words are bat **** crazy. And this is the thing- California Dems have no competition so can walk out in cloud cuckoo lane without a rope but put them in Iowa and they look like aliens.

Kamala did a better job than 2020 of making herself seem normal but it was still a fail. When somebody asks you what you would do differently than someone with a 35% approval rating, "I can't think of anything " isn't the answer

Agreed 100%

And her "I can't think of anything" answer ranked right up there with "I'm going to South America to figure out why people are coming up here through our border."

She is the kind of politician that embraces talking about the politics of a policy, rather than the actual policy.
Noonan has repeated this often.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
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82gradDLSdad
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In reply to DiabloWags • 11:09a, 11/11/24
DiabloWags said:
As for Kamala Harris, Mr. Trump in 2020 lost the Catholic vote. This year he carried it with a healthy 56%.
That'll teach her to blow off the Al Smith dinner.
That dinner sure seemed like a chance for Kamala to show her human side and not just a political puppet. Even Chuck Schumer sat right next to Trump and laughed and grimaced as Trump poked fun at him. Hell, even Trump saying he had nothing when he was supposed to poke fun at himself was funny. I admit, I'm biased. Trump comes across as someone fun to hang out with even while I think he has a lot of horrible qualities. I don't have any idea what Kamala is like while just hanging around with friends.
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bearister
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In reply to 82gradDLSdad • 11:19a, 11/11/24
You show me a con man that can't turn on charm when he has to, and I'll show you a poor conman.

I know a guy about to get sentenced to Federal prison (7-10) for a repeat felony conviction for the same business fraud. You couldn't meet a nicer, more charming guy.
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Big C
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In reply to DiabloWags • 11:30a, 11/11/24
DiabloWags said:
Anarchistbear said:



A big problem is most of the country does not share a rosy view of California politicians. I spend a few months a year out of state and that Kamala trans gender sex change ad ran constantly. Now I don't know the context but her words are bat **** crazy. And this is the thing- California Dems have no competition so can walk out in cloud cuckoo lane without a rope but put them in Iowa and they look like aliens.

Kamala did a better job than 2020 of making herself seem normal but it was still a fail. When somebody asks you what you would do differently than someone with a 35% approval rating, "I can't think of anything " isn't the answer

Agreed 100%

And her "I can't think of anything" answer ranked right up there with "I'm going to South America to figure out why people are coming up here through our border."

She is the kind of politician that embraces talking about the politics of a policy, rather than the actual policy.
Noonan has repeated this often.

This is one of Harris' weaknesses as a candidate: She doesn't have a core ideology that she can fall back on, so people are always wondering, "Is she a progressive? Is she a moderate?" Well, she could be either, depending on what she and her handlers think might best win her the current election. This time, she was the Queen of Fracking, but then she's on camera from four years ago wanting to pay for gender-affirming care for prisoners.

Say what you will about Bernie Sanders, but he comes across as authentic and people respect that.
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going4roses
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12:04p, 11/11/24
"This is the whole problem. We think that we can be an advanced democracy without securing citizens access to a good job.

We figure these things out slowly. 150 years ago, we figured out that property was required, so we created the Homestead Acts."
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
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going4roses
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12:07p, 11/11/24
"The myth of the "America Dream." The myth of the American Dream is the source of many folks nightmare soaked realities.

The myth of the American Dream orbits around individualism. The reality is that the winners in race of individualism are those who collectively benefit from a system designed to ensure that they have unearned advantages, wealth, land, and power. We, as Curtis Mayfield would say, "the people who are darker than blue," have to organize collectively. We have to stop allowing individual successes (who are oftentimes celebrities of some sort) to be our goal. Individualism is not a pathway to liberation. Individualism is a pathway to isolation, loneliness, and powerlessness. Said differently, Black individual celebrities are born everyday, while Black organizations seeking liberation are strangled as soon as begin to breathe.

When Lorde said,"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house," one of the tools in that toolbox is individualism."
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82gradDLSdad
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In reply to bearister • 2:52p, 11/11/24
bearister said:
You show me a con man that can't turn on charm when he has to, and I'll show you a poor conman.

I know a guy about to get sentenced to Federal prison (7-10) for a repeat felony conviction for the same business fraud. You couldn't meet a nicer, more charming guy.
Great. Another but Trump. I was referring to the candidate that lost. Maybe there were reasons other than the majority was conned. Kamala never showed us much of anything especially off script. I'm still guessing that she couldn't show us anything off script for who knows what reasons. Is she a horrible person off script? Is she a stupid person off script? Does she have no sense of humor? Anything. I guess she felt she didn't need to show up. It looks like that was another mistake. It's probably as simple as we were all conned...again.
And I know what Trump said at this dinner was scripted. I was referring to the off the political script version of off script.
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bearister
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In reply to 82gradDLSdad • 4:38p, 11/11/24
I don't disagree with what you wrote about KH. Your statement that triggered my comment was:

"Trump comes across as someone fun to hang out with…."
To me, that describes charm. A lot of people probably think he oozes charm and love hanging out with him. I don't find guys like him charming. I knew guys at Cal like him. You can guess where they grew up. They were all the same. We had to tell them how to act occasionally so their mouth didn't get them and anyone with them murdered.
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I got some friends inside
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tequila4kapp
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4:43p, 11/11/24
Trump is a guy that connects with people but I get the vibe he's not a fun dude to hang with 1:1. Clinton, Obama, Bush…those guys would have been great fraternity brothers. Trump…not so much for me.
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bearister
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 4:46p, 11/11/24
There were a couple of frats at Cal when I was there that were full of d@ickheads like tRump.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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82gradDLSdad
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3:42a, 11/12/24
I am the opposite of a frat guy. I've never been inside one and had basically zero friends at Cal. I lived at home in SF and commuted for five years. Hanging out with people and liking them or being friends with them are different things in my mind. I can find someone fun to hang out with and then leave them and think, "What a large *******". I have some acquaintances like that. The amount of good qualities they have are varied. Make no mistake, I think Trump is a bad person and has the history to prove it. I hope he can do some of the things he's promised in the next four years but I wouldn't bet on it. Kamala...I have no idea. I don't know if she'd be like some of my Dem friends: insufferable with regards to politics (and most other things) or more understanding of my opinions. I just have no feeling about her. Obama, for example, always seemed like an interesting guy. I would love to hang out with him. And some may consider him a big con man. Just feelings.
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concordtom
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In reply to BearGoggles • 4:50a, 11/12/24
BearGoggles said:
bearister said:
Is there a BI pool where we can bet on whether Liz Cheney gets convicted? All bets off if Sixth Amendment suspended and it is trial by tribunal.
It would be a real shame if Liz became subject to the same lawfare she unleashed on Trump.

There are reports she violated ethical rules as applied to attorneys (not clear they apply to a member of congress) and may have falsified/altered evidence. If those are true, then why shouldn't she be given the same treatment as others?

"There are reports"…. Oh Jesus Christ, you've stooped to a new level.

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concordtom
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 4:53a, 11/12/24
Anarchistbear said:
bearister said:
Is there a BI pool where we can bet on whether Liz Cheney gets convicted? All bets off if Sixth Amendment suspended and it is trial by tribunal.


Better yet- in the fashion of Dad- she's sent to Gitmo in a black bag or- be still my heart- tossed out of an airplane


For doing what, exactly?
What crime or indiscretion has Liz Cheney committed????
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concordtom
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In reply to bearister • 5:15a, 11/12/24
bearister said:
Irish Catholic Mass goer here. With that said, the Right Wing think they are going to save the Church. There will be nothing left to save:

Diocese of Oakland proposes $117 million-plus fund in clergy sex abuse deal; victims' attorneys call it 'a scam and a sham'


https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/11/09/diocese-of-oakland-proposes-117-million-plus-fund-in-clergy-sex-abuse-deal-victims-attorneys-call-it-a-scam-and-a-sham/

*The Church pulled the Triple Crown:
Rape the kids-Move the rapists around-Hide the money from the rape victims.

*tRump's yuck yuck buddy, Cardinal Tim Dolan, tried to squirrel away $57,000,000 from child rape victims by hiding it in a cemetery fund when he was running the Diocese of Milwaukee. A pairing made in Heaven, Right Wing Catholics and tRump. I would refuse to attend any function where Dolan was in attendance.


Sex might be the #3 urgent urge, behind Food and Water.
It's a curious institution that says, no, you can't have that. It turns normal people into distorted ones.
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