edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

Alright. I guess all these nation states, public companies, asset managers and other high net wortheres acquiring bitcoin are just idiots. YOU are the smart one. You know better.

---

No.

All of these "players" that you speak of are just trying to make money and then get out before the music stops and the "bubble" pops.

Some, are simply involved because its just another asset class to be a market-maker in ... and they believe they can make a lot of money off of retail order flow.

Just because various institutions are "involved" doesnt necessarily mean that they endorse it, embrace it, or are "married" to it. For most, it's just another trading vehicle.

Any student of history of the financial markets is aware of this.

dimitrig said:

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Cal88 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

It definitely does have a value, as a product and asset that you can store, access from anywhere and transfer to others independently. That kind of functionality, along with the safeguards associated with it, have contributed to its success.

---

It has a value because people have agreed that it does.

That might be enough but this talk about scarcity contributing to its value is silly.

---

DiabloWags said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

Alright. I guess all these nation states, public companies, asset managers and other high net wortheres acquiring bitcoin are just idiots. YOU are the smart one. You know better.

---

No.

All of these "players" that you speak of are just trying to make money and then get out before the music stops and the "bubble" pops.

Some, are simply involved because its just another asset class to be a market-maker in ... and they believe they can make a lot of money off of retail order flow.

Just because various institutions are "involved" doesnt necessarily mean that they endorse it, embrace it, or are "married" to it. For most, it's just another trading vehicle.

Any student of history of the financial markets is aware of this.

---

You're free to believe this. That's all I'll say.

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

My most conservative position?

Everyone should sit to pee. Males included.

It is much more common for men to sit to pee in Europe, and particularly in Germany. Frankly, the Germans were, and are, right (no Hitler references, please).

If you've ever seen a ray of sunshine illuminate the air in the area where you're peeing, even when your stream is dead on center, you know how horrific a sight it is to see the urine mist cloud going absolutely everywhere. (Heaven forbid your initial shot is off by a few inches which, admit it, is happening more and more as you get fatter and older).

Your bathroom walls, your bathroom floor, your shoes, and your pants, are all saturated in urine. You just don't realize it. Your maid realizes it all too well, but she won't tell you or anyone else out of fear of being deported (see, I brought this full circle).

I have Big C's support, right? Which other of you OT board cretins is with me?!!!

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

My most conservative position?

Everyone should sit to pee. Males included.

It is much more common for men to sit to pee in Europe, and particularly in Germany. Frankly, the Germans were, and are, right (no Hitler references, please).

If you've ever seen a ray of sunshine illuminate the air in the area where you're peeing, even when your stream is dead on center, you know how horrific a sight it is to see the urine mist cloud going absolutely everywhere. (Heaven forbid your initial shot is off by a few inches which, admit it, is happening more and more as you get fatter and older).

Your bathroom walls, your bathroom floor, your shoes, and your pants, are all saturated in urine. You just don't realize it. Your maid realizes it all too well, but she won't tell you or anyone else out of fear of being deported (see, I brought this full circle).

I have Big C's support, right? Which other of you OT board cretins is with me?!!!

---

Maybe this will work for you, but my schlong is just too big.

sycasey said:

---

Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

My most conservative position?

Everyone should sit to pee. Males included.

It is much more common for men to sit to pee in Europe, and particularly in Germany. Frankly, the Germans were, and are, right (no Hitler references, please).

If you've ever seen a ray of sunshine illuminate the air in the area where you're peeing, even when your stream is dead on center, you know how horrific a sight it is to see the urine mist cloud going absolutely everywhere. (Heaven forbid your initial shot is off by a few inches which, admit it, is happening more and more as you get fatter and older).

Your bathroom walls, your bathroom floor, your shoes, and your pants, are all saturated in urine. You just don't realize it. Your maid realizes it all too well, but she won't tell you or anyone else out of fear of being deported (see, I brought this full circle).

I have Big C's support, right? Which other of you OT board cretins is with me?!!!

---

Maybe this will work for you, but my schlong is just too big.

---

That's not what they're saying over at Cyberbears.com. Exactly the opposite, to be honest... how do they know?

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

I assume you own some Bitcoin. Do you own it as an investment or do you own it because it's a different means of paying for things? Quite frankly, I've never thought of the money I own (I guess I own dollars even though I actually hold very little physical dollars) as an investment. I guess I've never thought of my dollars as an investment because the number on my various 'ledgers' stays the same unless they are held at a bank or brokerage. It's a new way of thinking for me. And I guess, for sure, my dollars 'investment' is going down in value because they buy less goods and services.

Thanks for taking the time to answer me back.

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

Cal88 said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

---

Good thing I don't have any of my funds invested in Turkish Lira!

I thought Erdogan was a model leader who did everything right?

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

---

Good thing I don't have any of my funds invested in Turkish Lira!

I thought Erdogan was a model leader who did everything right?

---

I'm not sure why you think Erdogan is a model leader, I guess that's sarcasm.

One of the main reasons Turkey has had huge issues with inflation is that Erdogan (and his muslim religious base) have an aversion to high interest rates. Turkey as well carries a lot of USD-denominated foreign debt, a recipe for a death spiral, see also Argentina.

I've visited Turkey on holidays in 2010, great place, interesting sites and excellent food, back then the exchange rate was 1.5 Lira to the dollar. Today it's 35...

---

I wasn't meaning to suggest you thought Erdogan was a model leader. I was merely trying to absorb the thinking of right wing media that seems to have great admiration for authoritarian leaders, especially Erdogan.

Boosting Bitcoin by trumpeting how it's doing against a weak currency just leaves yourself open for sarcasm though.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

---

Good thing I don't have any of my funds invested in Turkish Lira!

I thought Erdogan was a model leader who did everything right?

---

I'm not sure why you think Erdogan is a model leader, I guess that's sarcasm.

One of the main reasons Turkey has had huge issues with inflation is that Erdogan (and his muslim religious base) have an aversion to high interest rates. Turkey as well carries a lot of USD-denominated foreign debt, a recipe for a death spiral, see also Argentina.

I've visited Turkey on holidays in 2010, great place, interesting sites and excellent food, back then the exchange rate was 1.5 Lira to the dollar. Today it's 35...

---

I wasn't meaning to suggest you thought Erdogan was a model leader. I was merely trying to absorb the thinking of right wing media that seems to have great admiration for authoritarian leaders, especially Erdogan.

Boosting Bitcoin by trumpeting how it's doing against a weak currency just leaves yourself open for sarcasm though.

---

That you think this is weird. By holding bitcoin, individuals living in a country with a hyperinflating currency can protect their purchasing power from the fiscal mismanagement of those in power, and you think this is something to throw sarcastic comments at like it's a bad thing? It's great you don't hold any Turkish Lira. Millions of others don't have that financial privilege.

edwinbear said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

82gradDLSdad said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

---

You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

---

Good thing I don't have any of my funds invested in Turkish Lira!

I thought Erdogan was a model leader who did everything right?

---

I'm not sure why you think Erdogan is a model leader, I guess that's sarcasm.

One of the main reasons Turkey has had huge issues with inflation is that Erdogan (and his muslim religious base) have an aversion to high interest rates. Turkey as well carries a lot of USD-denominated foreign debt, a recipe for a death spiral, see also Argentina.

I've visited Turkey on holidays in 2010, great place, interesting sites and excellent food, back then the exchange rate was 1.5 Lira to the dollar. Today it's 35...

---

I wasn't meaning to suggest you thought Erdogan was a model leader. I was merely trying to absorb the thinking of right wing media that seems to have great admiration for authoritarian leaders, especially Erdogan.

Boosting Bitcoin by trumpeting how it's doing against a weak currency just leaves yourself open for sarcasm though.

---

That you think this is weird. By holding bitcoin, individuals living in a country with a hyperinflating currency can protect their purchasing power from the fiscal mismanagement of those in power, and you think this is something to throw sarcastic comments at like it's a bad thing? It's great you don't hold any Turkish Lira. Millions of others don't have that financial privilege.

---

You can hold bitcoin or you can invest it in other bonds and equities that are less volatile.

dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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edwinbear said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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bear2034 said:

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sycasey said:

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I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

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The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

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How do "laws of physics" apply to a purely conceptual thing? You can't literally hold a bitcoin in your hand, can you?

I'm not being facetious here. I literally do not understand how this works and how there is any actual control on bitcoin's scarcity.

---

When I say "backed by the laws of physics," sure, I am being a bit tongue in cheek, but not really.

The US dollar is backed by the "full faith & credit of the US." What that really means is that the US has the power to manipulate the monetary policy and characteristics of the currency it issues on a whim. Add some more zeroes to some digital ledger they control and suddenly the supply of dollars is increased by trillions, debasing everyone else. So it's backed by "faith" in the US, but history shows that governments often abuse that faith.

Bitcoin is a money that NO one, no matter how big or wealthy, can manipulate. This is one of the reasons why its valuable, as a truly neutral money that anyone can trust. Its monetary policy and characteristics are etched in stone. One can predict with precision the supply issuance of bitcoin 1,000+ years into the future and trust that the rules of the game won't change. Jerome Powell can pinky promise he will never print another dollar. Does that suddenly make the dollar finite/scarce? No. As long as something can be manipulated by humans, it will be. Maybe Jerome Powell makes good on his word and never prints another dollar. But what about the next guy? And the one after that? Etc. Bitcoin's policies aren't governed by people, they are protected by math/physics.

How is this achieved? This is why bitcoin mining is important. Bitcoin mining is essentially the act of expending energy to secure the bitcoin network and its properties. The more energy expended, the more secure the network. At this point, bitcoin is THE most secure network in the world. Unlike the dollar which can be changed on a whim, the ONLY way a bad actor can (maybe) change/manipulate bitcoin is by not only generating enough electricity equal to 51%+ of the entire bitcoin mining network, but sustaining that expenditure for a period of time. At this point, it is basically impossible given how large and geographically distributed bitcoin mining has become. If a government wanted to "kill" bitcoin this way, they might have had a chance back in the early 2010s when there were fewer miners, but since then, bitcoin has achieved escape velocity and then some.

This is what I mean when I say bitcoin is backed by the laws of physics. The laws of physics say that proof of energy expenditure can't be counterfeited. With energy, you either have it or you don't. For a bad actor to change bitcoin you need to conjure up and sustain that enormous amount of energy, so that impossibly large task is what secures bitcoin and why you can trust that bitcoin's rules, unlike just about every other money, won't change,...and that is valuable.

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You can decline but now you are my Bitcoin teacher. Do you think a society, country, world can slowly convert from currency based trade to Bitcoin based? What I really mean is that I'm assuming you see no value or even more value in not having some government body saying, "Now we are using Bitcoin!". And in that way they can't devalue it like they did (supposedly) when we went off the gold standard.

BTW, if this topic is too large tell me to go read books. ;-)

---

I'm always happy to share my thoughts/conclusions on bitcoin when asked for them in good faith haha.

There are already countries that have made bitcoin legal tender. For example, in El Salvador, a previously dollarized country, they declared bitcoin legal tender and have been systematically acquiring bitcoin for their national reserves since 2022. You can literally walk into a McDonalds there and use bitcoin to buy a Big Mac if you'd like.

Will this spread to other dollarized countries and/or countries with weak/hyperinflatiing currencies? It already has. Perhaps not formally as legal tender but people in countries like Argentina, Turkey, Venezuela, etc. have saved in bitcoin for years and saved themselves from an overnight halving of their purchasing power. People fixate on the USD price of bitcoin and point to its volatility, but the reality is, bitcoin looks volatile priced in USD because the USD is still the "best of the worst" of currencies. I you look at the price of bitcoin in other currencies like the Turkish Lira, you don't see such volatility because the currency bitcoin is being priced in itself is losing purchasing power at a faster rate than the USD.

Governments will inevitably also use bitcoin, whether as a strategic reserve asset, currency, or even nationalized bitcoin mining to take advantage of its energy benefits. And that's fine. One reason that bitcoin is valuable is because it is an open monetary system that anyone can use. It's completely voluntary. Whether I like or don't like someone using bitcoin doesn't matter at all. That's bitcoin's neutral, non-sovereign nature and why it is a good money. There is a bitcoin meme that says "bitcoin is money for your enemies," meaning that BECAUSE even your enemies can use bitcoin (can't be censored, accounts can't be frozen, etc.) is why bitcoin is a good money. Imagine how countries all over the world holding US treasuries felt when the US unilaterally cancelled Russia's US treasury reserve assets because they did something the US didn't like.

Speaking of books, I recently met with the author of Resistance Money here in Singapore. He's a great guy, and his book does a great job of explaining bitcoin's benefits, why it's important and why it's inevitable.

If you're interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Resistance-Money-Andrew-M-Bailey/dp/103277780X

---

Bitcoin is up 155% year to date vs the Turkish Lira, and 75x return (7,500%) over 5 years.

---

Good thing I don't have any of my funds invested in Turkish Lira!

I thought Erdogan was a model leader who did everything right?

---

I'm not sure why you think Erdogan is a model leader, I guess that's sarcasm.

One of the main reasons Turkey has had huge issues with inflation is that Erdogan (and his muslim religious base) have an aversion to high interest rates. Turkey as well carries a lot of USD-denominated foreign debt, a recipe for a death spiral, see also Argentina.

I've visited Turkey on holidays in 2010, great place, interesting sites and excellent food, back then the exchange rate was 1.5 Lira to the dollar. Today it's 35...

---

I wasn't meaning to suggest you thought Erdogan was a model leader. I was merely trying to absorb the thinking of right wing media that seems to have great admiration for authoritarian leaders, especially Erdogan.

Boosting Bitcoin by trumpeting how it's doing against a weak currency just leaves yourself open for sarcasm though.

---

That you think this is weird. By holding bitcoin, individuals living in a country with a hyperinflating currency can protect their purchasing power from the fiscal mismanagement of those in power, and you think this is something to throw sarcastic comments at like it's a bad thing? It's great you don't hold any Turkish Lira. Millions of others don't have that financial privilege.

---

You can hold bitcoin or you can invest it in other bonds and equities that are less volatile.

---

Risk-reward, efficient frontier etc.

sycasey said:

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bear2034 said:

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sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

Anyone can make more bitcoin but it will require large amounts of computing power and energy similar to what you see for data centers. The total number of coins and the number of coins that can be produced daily is limited by the source code or blockchain that's open source, anyone can see it but the probability for it to be hacked is extremely low. A concept called "Proof of Work" is required by those mining bitcoin to validate authenticity across the decentralized bitcoin network, a network that is growing faster than the internet is.

dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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bear2034 said:

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sycasey said:

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I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Most cryptocurrencies are like fiat currency (US Dollar), you can make more of it unlike bitcoin which has a capped supply of 21 million coins.

Anyone can create a new class of cryptocurrency with bitcoin's properties but bitcoin has the advantage of being the first mover and has already been adopted by millions. Similarly, anyone can try copying Google and start a new company to replicate their business model and success but that's easier said than done.

dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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bear2034 said:

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sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

Bitcoin has intrinsic value if the marketplace says it does, just like Taylor Swift's music.

dimitrig said:

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Cal88 said:

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dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

It definitely does have a value, as a product and asset that you can store, access from anywhere and transfer to others independently. That kind of functionality, along with the safeguards associated with it, have contributed to its success.

---

It has a value because people have agreed that it does.

That might be enough but this talk about scarcity contributing to its value is silly.

---

What's even sillier is that we are all conditioned to accept the fact that the money supply keeps increasing and inflating the cost for goods and services at a higher rate than incomes and people continue to save in cash or low interest investments.

dimitrig said:

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Cal88 said:

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dimitrig said:

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Cal88 said:

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dimitrig said:

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edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

It definitely does have a value, as a product and asset that you can store, access from anywhere and transfer to others independently. That kind of functionality, along with the safeguards associated with it, have contributed to its success.

---

It has a value because people have agreed that it does.

That might be enough but this talk about scarcity contributing to its value is silly.

---

The rate of production of new bitcoins, done through servers executing series of mathematical operations, is smaller than the demand for bitcoins. That is not the case for most currencies today, with money supply and national debts outpacing additional demand from economic growth. As well the total amount of bitcoins that will be produced is set at 21 million. In this sense bitcoin can be viewed as a hedge against inflation, just like gold.

---

If bitcoin gets too expensive because the money supply doesn't increase we can all just agree on some new arbitrary crypto currency as a standard.

It's an inflation hedge as long as people agree it has value but it has no intrinsic value like land and it could all disappear really quickly if people stop trusting it.

The question I would ask is… with no one regulating it or backing it why would you trust it? A US dollar (paper) also has no intrinsic value but the US government provides its assurance that a one dollar bill will always have value. The value may rise or fall over time but it likely will never fall to (or close to) zero. There are no such assurances for bitcoin which make it really risky.

If people turn on it then all the value can disappear overnight.

---

There is a possibility that bitcoin can go to zero but not for any reasons mentioned in this thread.

The reality is the US Dollar and other global currencies are going to zero against bitcoin.

1 BTC = 93,596 USD

1 USD = 0.0000106842 BTC

bear2034 said:

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dimitrig said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

edwinbear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

bear2034 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

I guess my hesitation about bitcoin is: what's behind it? If you hold stock in a company, there is something behind that, a business that does things. If it's currency, there's a country behind that. Gold is an actual physical thing. What backs bitcoin?

---

Bitcoin is digital but it takes a tremendous amount of energy (and time) to mine it just like gold. Mining bitcoin involves solving math problems that take large amounts of computing power. The supply of bitcoin is also finite (21 million coins) unlike gold where you can always mine for more and unlike fiat currency where governments can always print more. What drives bitcoin's price is demand for the asset as the global money supply increases and purchasing power decreases.

---

What exactly prevents someone from just making more bitcoin?

---

The laws of physics, which is why bitcoin is the only credibly finite/scarce thing in the world. And NOTHING prevents the US government from making more dollars, which is the real problem, because historically governments only ever abuse this privilege.

---

There is nothing scarce about cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin hard to come by? How about etherium? Don't like either of those two? Create a new one! Or buy a NFT!

---

Bitcoin is not "crypto". I fully agree that "crypto" for the most part are scams. Bitcoin is different. Nobody highly educated about bitcoin thinks what you said.

---

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency like every other one. It has no intrinsic value. Anyone who thinks differently has just consumed the Kool Aid.

---

It definitely does have a value, as a product and asset that you can store, access from anywhere and transfer to others independently. That kind of functionality, along with the safeguards associated with it, have contributed to its success.

---

It has a value because people have agreed that it does.

That might be enough but this talk about scarcity contributing to its value is silly.

---

The rate of production of new bitcoins, done through servers executing series of mathematical operations, is smaller than the demand for bitcoins. That is not the case for most currencies today, with money supply and national debts outpacing additional demand from economic growth. As well the total amount of bitcoins that will be produced is set at 21 million. In this sense bitcoin can be viewed as a hedge against inflation, just like gold.

---

If bitcoin gets too expensive because the money supply doesn't increase we can all just agree on some new arbitrary crypto currency as a standard.

It's an inflation hedge as long as people agree it has value but it has no intrinsic value like land and it could all disappear really quickly if people stop trusting it.

The question I would ask is… with no one regulating it or backing it why would you trust it? A US dollar (paper) also has no intrinsic value but the US government provides its assurance that a one dollar bill will always have value. The value may rise or fall over time but it likely will never fall to (or close to) zero. There are no such assurances for bitcoin which make it really risky.

If people turn on it then all the value can disappear overnight.

---

There is a possibility that bitcoin can go to zero but not for any reasons mentioned in this thread.

The reality is the US Dollar and other global currencies are going to zero against bitcoin.

1 BTC = 93,596 USD

1 USD = 0.0000106842 BTC

---

Everything trends towards zero when priced in bitcoin.

I see, so the idea is that scarcity is built into bitcoin because of how it's programmed. Interesting.

sycasey said:

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I see, so the idea is that scarcity is built into bitcoin because of how it's programmed. Interesting.

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Yea but I'd add that it isn't just how it's programmed because that implies the program can simply be changed through key strokes. Id also add the credible enforcement of that scarcity by the requirement of a single or group of bad actors who'd want to change it to acquire and continue expending 51%+ of total energy spent securing the parameters of that program across thousands of computers globally. Hence, bitcoin is backed/secured by energy.

edwinbear said:

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sycasey said:

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I see, so the idea is that scarcity is built into bitcoin because of how it's programmed. Interesting.

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Yea but I'd add that it isn't just how it's programmed because that implies the program can simply be changed through key strokes. Id also add the credible enforcement of that scarcity by the requirement of a single or group of bad actors who'd want to change it to acquire and continue expending 51%+ of total energy spent securing the parameters of that program across thousands of computers globally. Hence, bitcoin is backed/secured by energy.

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In other words, it would be more profitable for bad actors to expend capital mining bitcoin or purchasing bitcoin rather than trying to hack the network.