TandemBear said:

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concordtom said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Your 3rd paragraph is super spot on. I remember when we thought market factors would democratize China. Wrong. Instead of them moving toward us with their values they are using capitalism to try to win the world over toward their values. That's another value proposition in favor of targeted tariffs.

---

I kinda like $400 65" flat panel WiFi TVs.

But what are you afraid of here?

Quote:

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Instead of them moving toward us with their values they are using capitalism to try to win the world over toward their values.

---

Are they going to brainwash you into speaking Cantonese?

---

Yes, but will you let the homeless guy with the $400 65" flat panel WiFi TV keep sleeping in your yard and using your electricity?

We're paying DEARLY for cheap consumer products in the US.

---

You're suggesting we jack up tariffs, someone setup a TV manufacturing company (et al x10,000) in the US and suddenly homelessness will be solved?

Beggar thy neighbor?

DiabloWags said:

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dimitrig said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Auto manufacturers are doing a 180 on EV. There isnt a week that goes by where a major auto maker is either cutting back on their investment in EV production or their actually off-loading assets that had gone into EV.

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They just overestimated the demand. It is still growing.

"U.S. EV market share reached a new high of 8.9% in Q3 2024.

EV sales were up 11% year-over-year, totaling 346,309 sales in the third quarter. Tesla's U.S. EV market share fell to 48%. General Motors reported a 60% increase in EV sales year-over-year, compared to a 12% for Ford."

Source:
https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales#:~:text=U.S.%20EV%20market%20share%20reached,to%20a%2012%25%20for%20Ford.

---

Only a $1 Billion dollar "mistake" by GM.

General Motors to Sell Stake in Lansing EV Battery Plant to LG Energy

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Thx for the link, but you exaggerate.

"This transaction is anticipated to allow GM to recoup its investment of about $1 billion"

Further:

GM insists the Lansing sale will not affect its overall ownership stake in the Ultium Cells joint venture, indicating strategic realignment rather than withdrawal from its commitment to EV production.

"We believe we have the right cell and manufacturing capabilities in place to grow with the EV market in a capital efficient manner," GM's CFO Paul Jacobson assured.

concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

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I'm going to a neighbor's now. We bought 10 425w solar panels at $125 each. He has a Chevy volt and charges it for free at home. We are doubling the capacity so it charges faster.

Install on a shed with a cheap EG4 inverter. He rarely has to pay for energy elsewhere.

I'll be doing same in 2025.

---

What state and type of area is this in? Most people living in urban or even suburban areas don't have this as an option, not to mention the technical know how to do the installation themselves.

---

California suburbia.
I have two houses. Concord and new Auburn. The latter is 5 acres. The former is .3 acres.

Both can benefit, though more land the better.

I've taken classes to gain an education in electronics AND solar.
Soon, stores like Home Depot odor solar will exist. We transport switched from horses to cars, it was just as foreign, so don't let that be a barrier for you.

It's happening!!!
Because it's cheaper!

---

That's very cool that you took those classes. Not many people have that skillset.

.3 acres is actually a large lot by California urban and suburban standards. On a lot that size, I think it would be hard to have a separate shed/solar array, so you're talking rooftop and likely major panel upgrades. Obviously, its easy on 5 acres.

I have nothing against solar or batteries. I have both (rooftop solar and Tesla powerwall) as well as a an EV and hybrid. I did that because I could afford it and the cost of the cars/solar/batteries was heavily subsidized to the point that it makes economic sense for me. I think I'm an outlier - most people aren't in my situation. And certainly most people are not in yours where they can self install.

And much of this is heavily regulated, both in terms of installation, connecting to the grid, etc. Still pretty confusing and, candidly, overwhelming for most consumers. And then when you make a financial decision like I did when installing solar, the government/utilities change the rules by surcharging solar (i.e., making it more expensive for me than I projected).

Bottom line - I don't think its cheaper yet. And that's in California where electrical/gas prices are high, partly because our government wants it that way to make renewables appear to be more affordable . In other states, electricity from gas/coal is much cheaper.

I agree that battery technology is the key. Both for cars (cost/range) but also for some of the larger storage solutions for the grid (e.g., a Tesla Megapack). To me the latter is the most interesting long term possibility.

---

good on you!

I imagine you can calculate a break even time frame on your panels + batteries. I hear 7 years is common for many. Long run is where solar wins, not Year1. I know you know this, so don't understand why you say it's not cheaper.

My concord property actually has a 3-car garage in the rear. The problem is trees.


You say that most people aren't in our positions where we can take advantage of this new energy technology. True! But utilities are already going that route. Take a look at a satellite view of NW of Blythe, CA. Or Desert Center, CA. The vision of devoting huge swaths of land is happening.

Grid scale battery locations (like PG&E Moss Landing, CA) already exist, and they are only going to multiple. Why? Because it's cheaper.

But I love that the tech is modular. Meaning, anyone with a small plot can benefit.

I laugh at the fact that PG&E is engaged in so much tree limb cutting. This makes them more expensive than a little guy like me. I don't have that overhead. So, my mini setup will be cheaper that theirs even
though they have massive economies of scale.

---

I say its not cheaper in two respects.

For solar panels, the payback period varies hugely by state because the rates vary by state as does the anticipated production. Per the link below, some states are have really inexpensive power costs (.12 in Utah vs. .29 in CA). And I assume solar production is far less in Utah. So the buy back period is much longer and most people aren't in a position (or prefer not) to write a big check. And the solar leasing programs are a scam.

https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/

In terms of cars, for most models, you have to drive a lot of miles for many years for the payback to make sense. That applies to both plug in and hybrid.

Dumb luck.

PS
You can see from the numbers, my payback period is less than 2 years.

concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

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BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

---

I'm going to a neighbor's now. We bought 10 425w solar panels at $125 each. He has a Chevy volt and charges it for free at home. We are doubling the capacity so it charges faster.

Install on a shed with a cheap EG4 inverter. He rarely has to pay for energy elsewhere.

I'll be doing same in 2025.

---

What state and type of area is this in? Most people living in urban or even suburban areas don't have this as an option, not to mention the technical know how to do the installation themselves.

---

California suburbia.
I have two houses. Concord and new Auburn. The latter is 5 acres. The former is .3 acres.

Both can benefit, though more land the better.

I've taken classes to gain an education in electronics AND solar.
Soon, stores like Home Depot odor solar will exist. We transport switched from horses to cars, it was just as foreign, so don't let that be a barrier for you.

It's happening!!!
Because it's cheaper!

---

That's very cool that you took those classes. Not many people have that skillset.

.3 acres is actually a large lot by California urban and suburban standards. On a lot that size, I think it would be hard to have a separate shed/solar array, so you're talking rooftop and likely major panel upgrades. Obviously, its easy on 5 acres.

I have nothing against solar or batteries. I have both (rooftop solar and Tesla powerwall) as well as a an EV and hybrid. I did that because I could afford it and the cost of the cars/solar/batteries was heavily subsidized to the point that it makes economic sense for me. I think I'm an outlier - most people aren't in my situation. And certainly most people are not in yours where they can self install.

And much of this is heavily regulated, both in terms of installation, connecting to the grid, etc. Still pretty confusing and, candidly, overwhelming for most consumers. And then when you make a financial decision like I did when installing solar, the government/utilities change the rules by surcharging solar (i.e., making it more expensive for me than I projected).

Bottom line - I don't think its cheaper yet. And that's in California where electrical/gas prices are high, partly because our government wants it that way to make renewables appear to be more affordable . In other states, electricity from gas/coal is much cheaper.

I agree that battery technology is the key. Both for cars (cost/range) but also for some of the larger storage solutions for the grid (e.g., a Tesla Megapack). To me the latter is the most interesting long term possibility.

---

good on you!

I imagine you can calculate a break even time frame on your panels + batteries. I hear 7 years is common for many. Long run is where solar wins, not Year1. I know you know this, so don't understand why you say it's not cheaper.

My concord property actually has a 3-car garage in the rear. The problem is trees.


You say that most people aren't in our positions where we can take advantage of this new energy technology. True! But utilities are already going that route. Take a look at a satellite view of NW of Blythe, CA. Or Desert Center, CA. The vision of devoting huge swaths of land is happening.

Grid scale battery locations (like PG&E Moss Landing, CA) already exist, and they are only going to multiple. Why? Because it's cheaper.

But I love that the tech is modular. Meaning, anyone with a small plot can benefit.

I laugh at the fact that PG&E is engaged in so much tree limb cutting. This makes them more expensive than a little guy like me. I don't have that overhead. So, my mini setup will be cheaper that theirs even
though they have massive economies of scale.

---

I say its not cheaper in two respects.

For solar panels, the payback period varies hugely by state because the rates vary by state as does the anticipated production. Per the link below, some states are have really inexpensive power costs (.12 in Utah vs. .29 in CA). And I assume solar production is far less in Utah. So the buy back period is much longer and most people aren't in a position (or prefer not) to write a big check. And the solar leasing programs are a scam.

https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/

In terms of cars, for most models, you have to drive a lot of miles for many years for the payback to make sense. That applies to both plug in and hybrid.

---

I presented my install proposal on my own house today:

30 panels 380W, $61.50 each = $2000.
2 string inverters, $2500 each.
That's a 11.4 kW system, producing 17k+ kWh/yr. 100% offset.

Mounting/racking, generously, $3k
Electrical BoS, generously, $1200
Permit and electrician sign off: $1k
TOTAL: $12,200
Less 30% TAX CREDIT
NET: $8,540

17,000 kWh * 20 years = 340,000 kWh
$8540 divided by 340,000 = $.0251 per kWh

Meanwhile, in my bill analysis, I paid PG&E just under $5000 for 15,000 kWh for the year 2021. That's $.30 per kWh. Actually, it calculated to $.33, but I'm showing you the rounded numbers so you can follow.

And the point is clear.
My own solar install will be 10% of PG&E, for a small up front outlay.

I know, I know…. You'll say my numbers are bogus. Couldn't be.

But here are the pertinent links.

https://a1solarstore.com/talesun-solar-380w-panel-72-cells-tp672m-h-380-wholesale-30-panels-per-pallet.html

https://solartown.com/solar-products/sma-sunny-boy-smart-energy-5-8-us-hybrid-pv-storage-grid-tie-inverter-backup-ready-dc-disconnect-ul1741sb-120-240-208vac/

My neighbor already bought through them, and we installed last week. He bought 425W for $125 each.

You'll say, well, most people can't do it themselves. And you're right.
But, it IS far cheaper technology.

---

Why are you basing cost on pricing you admit is not realistic because, as you acknowledge, most people cannot do the work themselves? I'd also point out that many people need panel upgrades which add $2,000 plus in costs (not to mention installation).

That sized system is going to cost around $30,000 in California. That is without any battery storage which I believe will add at least another $10K (not sure on pricing since it has been a while since I did my install).

https://www.energysage.com/local-data/solar-panel-cost/

So, using your situation with a 2 year buy back, the payback period for a "retail buyer" is 6-8 years - without batteries. Longer with batteries. Most people don't own a house that long and don't have $30K+ sitting around.

Again, I'm a supporter/adopter. But I don't think the economics are as obvious or compelling for most people.

BearGoggles said:

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concordtom said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

concordtom said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

concordtom said:

---

BearGoggles said:

---

concordtom said:

---

I'm going to a neighbor's now. We bought 10 425w solar panels at $125 each. He has a Chevy volt and charges it for free at home. We are doubling the capacity so it charges faster.

Install on a shed with a cheap EG4 inverter. He rarely has to pay for energy elsewhere.

I'll be doing same in 2025.

---

What state and type of area is this in? Most people living in urban or even suburban areas don't have this as an option, not to mention the technical know how to do the installation themselves.

---

California suburbia.
I have two houses. Concord and new Auburn. The latter is 5 acres. The former is .3 acres.

Both can benefit, though more land the better.

I've taken classes to gain an education in electronics AND solar.
Soon, stores like Home Depot odor solar will exist. We transport switched from horses to cars, it was just as foreign, so don't let that be a barrier for you.

It's happening!!!
Because it's cheaper!

---

That's very cool that you took those classes. Not many people have that skillset.

.3 acres is actually a large lot by California urban and suburban standards. On a lot that size, I think it would be hard to have a separate shed/solar array, so you're talking rooftop and likely major panel upgrades. Obviously, its easy on 5 acres.

I have nothing against solar or batteries. I have both (rooftop solar and Tesla powerwall) as well as a an EV and hybrid. I did that because I could afford it and the cost of the cars/solar/batteries was heavily subsidized to the point that it makes economic sense for me. I think I'm an outlier - most people aren't in my situation. And certainly most people are not in yours where they can self install.

And much of this is heavily regulated, both in terms of installation, connecting to the grid, etc. Still pretty confusing and, candidly, overwhelming for most consumers. And then when you make a financial decision like I did when installing solar, the government/utilities change the rules by surcharging solar (i.e., making it more expensive for me than I projected).

Bottom line - I don't think its cheaper yet. And that's in California where electrical/gas prices are high, partly because our government wants it that way to make renewables appear to be more affordable . In other states, electricity from gas/coal is much cheaper.

I agree that battery technology is the key. Both for cars (cost/range) but also for some of the larger storage solutions for the grid (e.g., a Tesla Megapack). To me the latter is the most interesting long term possibility.

---

good on you!

I imagine you can calculate a break even time frame on your panels + batteries. I hear 7 years is common for many. Long run is where solar wins, not Year1. I know you know this, so don't understand why you say it's not cheaper.

My concord property actually has a 3-car garage in the rear. The problem is trees.


You say that most people aren't in our positions where we can take advantage of this new energy technology. True! But utilities are already going that route. Take a look at a satellite view of NW of Blythe, CA. Or Desert Center, CA. The vision of devoting huge swaths of land is happening.

Grid scale battery locations (like PG&E Moss Landing, CA) already exist, and they are only going to multiple. Why? Because it's cheaper.

But I love that the tech is modular. Meaning, anyone with a small plot can benefit.

I laugh at the fact that PG&E is engaged in so much tree limb cutting. This makes them more expensive than a little guy like me. I don't have that overhead. So, my mini setup will be cheaper that theirs even
though they have massive economies of scale.

---

I say its not cheaper in two respects.

For solar panels, the payback period varies hugely by state because the rates vary by state as does the anticipated production. Per the link below, some states are have really inexpensive power costs (.12 in Utah vs. .29 in CA). And I assume solar production is far less in Utah. So the buy back period is much longer and most people aren't in a position (or prefer not) to write a big check. And the solar leasing programs are a scam.

https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/

In terms of cars, for most models, you have to drive a lot of miles for many years for the payback to make sense. That applies to both plug in and hybrid.

---

I presented my install proposal on my own house today:

30 panels 380W, $61.50 each = $2000.
2 string inverters, $2500 each.
That's a 11.4 kW system, producing 17k+ kWh/yr. 100% offset.

Mounting/racking, generously, $3k
Electrical BoS, generously, $1200
Permit and electrician sign off: $1k
TOTAL: $12,200
Less 30% TAX CREDIT
NET: $8,540

17,000 kWh * 20 years = 340,000 kWh
$8540 divided by 340,000 = $.0251 per kWh

Meanwhile, in my bill analysis, I paid PG&E just under $5000 for 15,000 kWh for the year 2021. That's $.30 per kWh. Actually, it calculated to $.33, but I'm showing you the rounded numbers so you can follow.

And the point is clear.
My own solar install will be 10% of PG&E, for a small up front outlay.

I know, I know…. You'll say my numbers are bogus. Couldn't be.

But here are the pertinent links.

https://a1solarstore.com/talesun-solar-380w-panel-72-cells-tp672m-h-380-wholesale-30-panels-per-pallet.html

https://solartown.com/solar-products/sma-sunny-boy-smart-energy-5-8-us-hybrid-pv-storage-grid-tie-inverter-backup-ready-dc-disconnect-ul1741sb-120-240-208vac/

My neighbor already bought through them, and we installed last week. He bought 425W for $125 each.

You'll say, well, most people can't do it themselves. And you're right.
But, it IS far cheaper technology.

---

Why are you basing cost on pricing you admit is not realistic because, as you acknowledge, most people cannot do the work themselves? I'd also point out that many people need panel upgrades which add $2,000 plus in costs (not to mention installation).

That sized system is going to cost around $30,000 in California. That is without any battery storage which I believe will add at least another $10K (not sure on pricing since it has been a while since I did my install).

https://www.energysage.com/local-data/solar-panel-cost/

So, using your situation with a 2 year buy back, the payback period for a "retail buyer" is 6-8 years - without batteries. Longer with batteries. Most people don't own a house that long and don't have $30K+ sitting around.

Again, I'm a supporter/adopter.
But I don't think the economics are as obvious or compelling for most people.

---

Your math there is fine.
And my argument of cheaper still works out.

Let's insert your cost into my calc where I came up with 2.5 cents:

17,000 kWh * 20 years = 340,000 kWh
$30000 divided by 340,000 = $.088 per kWh

Even if you made it $40000, that's 11.7 cents, cheaper than they 12 in Utah you quoted. Again, PG&E charged me 33 cents. And that was 3 years ago. They are more now. And going to be more in 5, 10, 20, 30 years. My panels will still be producing free energy for me. Okay, maybe not in 30 years. I'll replace them with new tech by then. Or remove for a new roof.


People can't afford a $500,000 house. But it still works out for them via a 30 year mortgage. And they don't live in a house for 30 years, but the residual value is there.

Cars are a WAY worse investment, by the way. Would you rather buy a 30k car, which deprecates like a MF and is worth 1/10 after 10 years? Or a solar system, which will continue to pay your utility bill for 10+ more?
People buy cars all the time.
On credit.

People also go on European vacations.
Or buy big diamond rings and throw expensive weddings.

People can afford it. They just don't know about it or choose it. But that doesn't make it unaffordable.

Kudos to you for being on it sooner rather than later.

I'm forgoing a battery initially.
I can add one at any time. I want to do this bit size install first. Batteries will only get cheaper.

I learned of Barbara Ehrenreich a couple or few years ago. Thank you for bringing her into BI.

10 minutes:



Cute. Finishes with: "Remember Voltaire: the comfort of the rich depends upon an abundance of the poor. It's a law of economics as old as supply and demand."

1 hr:

Lots of good stuff to reply to you, and I haven't even finished reading your post.

First, yes, I inferred that. You did not say that.
I always enjoy a good policy debate/discussion. As a matter of disclaimer, my bias comes from undergraduate college coursework in my international economics major.

We examined lots of things that interfere with supply and demand charts - things like taxes and regulations and tariffs and minimum wages or import quotas. I think the professor termed these things "externalities", and we worked on supply and demand graphs, adding in the various externalities to see what effect it would have on price and production.

In every case, the externality produced negative results on pure, unfettered, supply and demand, but we discussed why these externalities are implemented by policy makers, and in which cases they are appropriate and where not.

I was an International Affairs-Econ major and this was in DC, so this issue of tariff policy is right there. Like Sarah Palin could see Russia from Alaska, I would (actually, not hypothetically like Palin) drive by Embassy Row on Mass Ave to the Capitol regularly! Thus, I consider myself even more of an expert on the subject than her (a TV broadcaster from Idaho)! Sorry, I jest.

But back to the subject matter…
According to the economic theory, the planet's combined economy functions best when all actors do what they have a "Comparative Advantage" in.

Some countries will have a comparative advantage in making steel, or TVs or tires, or sugar, or….

And while some are higher priced and others are low priced, we may think that those that produce the high tech are better off, but the thesis was that if there are no externalities and free trade is allowed, then both parties (nations) benefit by doing what they do best, and simply trading.

Now, having established that, through S&D graph work, we discussed how many externalities enter the scene.

Like, if A makes guns/bullets and B makes rice while C makes cars, then B can exert (violence) pressure on A to trade at unfair terms. Or A can starve out C.

Or if making X degrades the environment which kills people downstream, regulations externalities are appropriate.

We then would get into all the other externalities.

So, when we discuss tariffs, I mentally go here. Tariffs hinder efficient markets, and while some industries (like Food as the most basic) are "national security" industries and Supply must be guaranteed, most tariffs imagined are not necessary, are the result of special interest lobbyists, and become a "negative externality" to market efficiency - which means the world collectively becomes poorer.

I mentioned "beggar thy neighbor" because it harkens a prior era where many nations, thinking it would bring domestic prosperity) increasingly raised and retaliated with tariffs only to create collective economic malaise. This is where Trump's announcements of his intentions promises to take us. Yet, many are uneducated about what it actually means.

He's a populist fool, leading fools. But let's not go there. Let's stick to the policy discussions. Sorry, my bad.

TandemBear said:

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concordtom said:

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TandemBear said:

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concordtom said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Your 3rd paragraph is super spot on. I remember when we thought market factors would democratize China. Wrong. Instead of them moving toward us with their values they are using capitalism to try to win the world over toward their values. That's another value proposition in favor of targeted tariffs.

---

I kinda like $400 65" flat panel WiFi TVs.

But what are you afraid of here?

Quote:

---

Instead of them moving toward us with their values they are using capitalism to try to win the world over toward their values.

---

Are they going to brainwash you into speaking Cantonese?

---

Yes, but will you let the homeless guy with the $400 65" flat panel WiFi TV keep sleeping in your yard and using your electricity?

We're paying DEARLY for cheap consumer products in the US.

---

You're suggesting we jack up tariffs, someone setup a TV manufacturing company (et al x10,000) in the US and suddenly homelessness will be solved?

Beggar thy neighbor?

---

You realize I didn't say that, right? You're inferring that's what I meant.

Robert Reich reported that our steel industry wasn't lost by any omission or accident on the part of the US. This was BY DESIGN! "Saint" Reagan actually ACTED DIRECTLY to decimate our steel industry. His idea was that all Americans would achieve higher prosperity by abandoning blue collar work and instead become well-paid white collar workers! So he actively worked to shut down US manufacturing.

In other words, "Let's all be chiefs!" As if WalMart can have a thousand CEOs! Wow, what fantasy-land thinking! To know the hero of the right PURPOSEFULLY shut down their jobs is unbelievable.

Now I must admit I don't know how much of this is actually true or came to pass, as I'm just paraphrasing what I remember from Reich's email from last year or so.

But maybe, must MAYBE not actively destroying American manufacturing might have just helped prevent the decimation of blue collar jobs? Working instead on creative ways to continue our country's manufacturing prowess into the 21 century instead of abandoning it?

Maybe if we tasked high tech to fix this issue instead of further devaluing wage-earning jobs? But today we have a "race to the bottom" 'gig economy' that has totally disenfranchised workers. Despite learning lessons from Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed," we've gone in the opposite direction. Low wage workers aren't even employees anymore! I heard a professional business planner interviewed a few years back commenting on Task Rabbit. Whereas when she was asked to write up a business plan for a company, she usually charged in the $10k range. The TaskRabbit job was awarded for ten bucks!

You won't have a very prosperous workforce when this crap is underfoot!

And with the emergence of AI, high tech is actively in the process of displacing thousands and thousands of additional professional careers. A friend of mine in technical/professional writing says they're segment of the workforce is expecting huge layoffs right around the corner.

All to service the bottom line. What good is a "healthy bottom line" when there are no employed people to buy your product or service?

We SAY we want to address homelessness, but then we let the "free market" do exactly what it wants to destroy the jobs we have (or had).

But my way of thinking gets immediately dismissed as "socialism," so we can't even have a discussion on the matter.

So I guess enjoy watching the homeless camps grow. But please stop blaming your Mayor, City Council or Governor for the problem. It's not of their making.

---

You mentioned Reagan and steel. That Reagan actively worked to dismantle the US Steel Industry?

Woah. I have a problem with that accusation. Now, I really know nothing about this industry or claim, but the accusation sounds preposterous to me. Please explain.

Instead, I suspect other nations could produce steel cheaper and so this drove US steel down. And what did Reagan do to actively bring about this decline? I dunno what Reich is claiming - remove tariffs? Not implement tariffs??


You mentioned AI…
I also learned somewhere along the way that economic studies Find that "the only real increase in wealth is derived from gains in per capita productivity."

Therefore, I LOVE ROBOTS AND AI !!!

The problem is that these new technologies increase wealth in the hands of few, and man gets jealous and wars when there is gross inequality.

Poor people steal or mug or kidnap or burn. Riot. Revolt. Kill.
Nations attack. Think Gaza. Or Boston Tea Party, I suppose.
Parked cars "smash n grab".
Walnut Creek Broadway Plaza flash mob theft.

We need a measure of equality for civilization to work!

But I think the big thing here is to consider that:

expectations of wealth matters!!

People "see" wealth on TV and begin to imagine that they should have that, too! They see themselves as unreasonably poor.
But in truth, people experience a higher standard of living than in yesteryear. Today, hvac and indoor plumbing are everywhere, not to mention iPhones and cars. Go back 150 years - those people would DIE to have what our poor have today.
In this sense, Barbara's arguments lose weight with me. I think she presumes that everyone should have a middling standard of living. But today's middling was yesterday's kings and tomorrow's poor. So, it's all relative. And she also seems to assert that the rich are doing things to keep others disadvantaged. Uh, yeah, it's always been that way - and this is why we need to create more equality (in support of Ehrenreich), but to think that it's not going to be hard to make a "reasonable" standard of living… again, who is the judge of what's reasonable?

Was it a politician? Or perhaps henry Ford when he said that every American should be able to afford the car that he helped build?

Thx. I must transition for the day.

"Cute. Finishes with: "Remember Voltaire: the comfort of the rich depends upon an abundance of the poor. It's a law of economics as old as supply and demand"."

Nice! I was traveling to Geneva last fall when a fellow traveler suggested, "Stay in Ferney-Voltaire outside of Geneva, it's MUCH cheaper!!!" So I did. And that's when I learned Voltaire's estate was a two minute bike ride away from where I was staying. Love serendipity like that!

Gotta go offline now; will read your replies later.

TandemBear said:

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"Cute. Finishes with: "Remember Voltaire: the comfort of the rich depends upon an abundance of the poor. It's a law of economics as old as supply and demand"."

Nice! I was traveling to Geneva last fall when a fellow traveler suggested, "Stay in Ferney-Voltaire outside of Geneva, it's MUCH cheaper!!!" So I did. And that's when I learned Voltaire's estate was a two minute bike ride away from where I was staying. Love serendipity like that!

Gotta go offline now; will read your replies later.

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Maybe while you were in Geneva, you could have observed that there aren't many poor people there. Switzerland is one example of that Voltaire saying not being a hard rule.

Minimum wage in Geneva is around $27/hr.

Could be to do with… Swiss banking laws?

This has contributed to the strength of the Swiss Franc, but the Euro next door is not chopped liver.

Other measures contributing to lower poverty in Switzerland are restrictions on immigration, vs open borders in the EU, restrictions on home ownership for foreigners (contrast with housing crisis in countries like Spain or Portugal as the locals have been priced out of the housing market), lower taxes, and arguably the most democratic government in the world.

Gee. That must be the solution.
Expel "foreigners".

Do you sort by skin color or paperwork?
And if by paperwork, maybe you could get more to the point by having that paperwork be one's political party registration.

Sound analysis.

concordtom said:

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Gee. That must be the solution.
Expel "foreigners".

Do you sort by skin color or paperwork?
And if by paperwork, maybe you could get more to the point by having that paperwork be one's political party registration.

Sound analysis.

---

I have been to Switzerland a dozen times and have never seen any homeless people.

In France, Canada or the UK homelessness used to be rare, now it is becoming rampant, almost as bad as in the US. The number of homeless people in France has tripled in the last 20 years, as a combination of housing and food inflation and decline in purchasing power especially at the lower end, with open borders and high volume of immigration being the main factor. There and in the US there is a growing problem of the working poor being chronically homeless. In the US this is compounded by people losing their healthcare coverage and access to healthcare.

Good report on the stark evolution of the SE Asian car market, previously dominated by Japan, from the same source introduced by Tom earlier:



German auto industry in trouble:



He has a good analysis of China's strategy in anticipation of US sanctions and decoupling:



Staggering stat: China went from a 6% share of global manufacturing in 2000 to a projected 50%+ in 2030.

Honda and Nissan in merger talks.

It's going to be US brands next, I suppose.

China is kicking the developed world's ass. Look up the battery market. They dominate for EVs and grid storage.

The global utility market is larger than cars.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/nissan-honda-confirm-talks-closer-collaboration-decision-merger-116892561

The sad thing about tariffs is we basically close ourselves off to the benefits of better/cheaper products because we are stuck on 'Merica.

Cal88 said:

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Good report on the stark evolution of the SE Asian car market, previously dominated by Japan, from the same source introduced by Tom earlier:



German auto industry in trouble:



He has a good analysis of China's strategy in anticipation of US sanctions and decoupling:



Staggering stat: China went from a 6% share of global manufacturing in 2000 to a projected 50%+ in 2030.

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That effing Nixon

dimitrig said:

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concordtom said:

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Honda and Nissan in merger talks.

It's going to be US brands next, I suppose.

China is kicking the developed world's ass. Look up the battery market. They dominate for EVs and grid storage.

The global utility market is larger than cars.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/nissan-honda-confirm-talks-closer-collaboration-decision-merger-116892561

---

This concept of Japan, China, Germany, or the US having their ass kicked (or kicking ass) is dated in this age of multinational corporations.

Is Apple a US company or a Chinese one? Well, it's both.

Is Honda a Japanese company or an American company? Again, it's both.

The nationality of the CEO doesn't matter nor does the location of the headquarters. The shareholders are from everywhere.

From "Network":

"You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it!! Is that clear?! You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance!

You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU WILL ATONE!

Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon.
Those are the nations of the world today.

What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do.

We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality -- one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.

And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel."

---

Damn!!!
Mr. Beale only has a little 21" TV??

Bro needs to get his ass down to Costco or Walmart!

Cal88 said:

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Staggering stat: China went from a 6% share of global manufacturing in 2000 to a projected 50%+ in 2030.

---

Exports to USA represented 8% of China's GDP in 2007, but is now only 2.5%.

This means they are not reliant on USA, won't be harmed by any potential Trump tariffs. They will keep zipping along, while USA lags. We will pretty much stay stuck in the drill baby drill car economy.

dimitrig said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Honda and Nissan in merger talks.

It's going to be US brands next, I suppose.

China is kicking the developed world's ass. Look up the battery market. They dominate for EVs and grid storage.

The global utility market is larger than cars.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/nissan-honda-confirm-talks-closer-collaboration-decision-merger-116892561

---

This concept of Japan, China, Germany, or the US having their ass kicked (or kicking ass) is dated in this age of multinational corporations.

Is Apple a US company or a Chinese one? Well, it's both.

Is Honda a Japanese company or an American company? Again, it's both.

The nationality of the CEO doesn't matter nor does the location of the headquarters. The shareholders are from everywhere.

From "Network":

"You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it!! Is that clear?! You think you've merely stopped a business deal. That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance!

You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today! And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and YOU WILL ATONE!

Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale?

You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and ITT and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon.
Those are the nations of the world today.

What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do.

We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality -- one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock, all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.

And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel."

---

This was written by a Hollywood scriptwriter in the 1970s.

Huawei and BYD are Chinese companies, Hyundai is Korean, Mitsubishi is Japanese.

It's true however that corporate interests often trump national interests in America to some extent. If Balckrock were around in 1975 it definitely would have been featured in "Network".

Cost of Chinese batteries coming down fast, big changes ahead for the EV industry.

VW and its Unions avert a strike.
But agree to 35,000 jobs eliminated in the future.

A Xmas Miracle.

VW reaches union deal to cut 35,000 German jobs after gruelling talks | Reuters

Honda and Nissan will.merge in 2026.

Carlos Ghosn, former Nissan-Renault CEO doesn't see a lot of value in that merger:

This video is many months old but covers many different global companies efforting to create better batteries.

USA consumers are stuck on the drill baby drill mindset, while the world changes underneath us.

The globe will transition from carbon based energy economy. Will we be leaders or laggards? What will the economic consequences be?

One third of all vehicles priced below $30,000 and sold in the U.S. are built in Mexico.

Cant wait for those 25% Trump tariffs to screw all of his followers.

MAGA!

DiabloWags said:

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One third of all vehicles priced below $30,000 and sold in the U.S. are built in Mexico.

Cant wait for those 25% Trump tariffs to screw all of his followers.

MAGA!

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me too, can't wait to see a revitalization of the auto industry in the US.

The best way forward is to either get the Chinese to transfer their battery tech in exchange for access to the US market or for some American firms to enter JV or mergers with Chinese auto companies. They are too far ahead in battery technology and control the supply chain from the mining and processing of minerals to the production.

Even the last refuge of US automakers, the truck market, is under threat from the Chinese, who are now producing good midsize trucks at a $13,000 price point. They're going to eat the lunch of Toyota and Nissan in markets like Brazil and Australia: