Another interesting section of their conversation:
AMANPOUR: So, that's really interesting. I am telling you that I hate to go back to the Nazi era. I don't want to bring up Hitler. It turns a whole
number of people off, but I cannot help but be struck by what Joseph Goebbels said after they seized power -- as they were seizing power from a
democracy. He said, "the big joke on democracy is that it gives its mortal enemies the means to its own destruction." And Kim, you saw that firsthand in Hungary.
SCHEPPELE: Absolutely, exactly. Hungary, it was Poland, it was Turkey, it was even Russia, which we forget in the early days was all consolidation of
power by law. So, this is how it happens all over the world in Venezuela and in Ecuador, the leaders there rewrote the constitutions in their first year. Orban did that too.
[14:10:00]
And so, what happens is that we have this idea, which is how democracy is supposed to function, a leader gets elected and then they change the law.
So, when the leader gets elected and changes the law, many people stand around and say, well, gee, you know, I kind of disagree with this leader,
but that's how democracies work.
And what they need to see is, you know, it's not just any law that these new autocrats are passing, it's laws that actually remove restraints on the
executive. And that's the danger signal we're seeing now in the United States. You know, Trump is claiming the power to stop all federal funding.
Does he have that power by law? Well, no.
But somebody is going to have to tell him no. And the question is whether Congress rises to the challenge, whether the courts rise to the challenge.
And frankly, the thing I'm alarmed about in the United States is that unlike in Trump's first term, we're not seeing people go to the streets.
We're not seeing a really mobilized constituency in the general public that's going to let the institutions know that the public sees what's
happening, and that's because we don't have focused leadership right now.
Same thing happened in Hungary, everybody objected, people did not go to the streets, and within three years, their democracy was over.
AMANPOUR: And you said it was one of the quickest collapses of democracy in recorded history. Norm, I want to ask you, because Orban made three
trips, not one, three to Mar-a-Lago and President Trump in the year leading up to his election. Also, Project 2025 envisions similar, a 180-day, you
know, trying to throw out and shift and change the U.S. constitutional, legal, legislative precedents.
What do you think is going to be the next steps? Because as Kim said, and others have told us, even rescinding the OMB thing doesn't mean to say that
they have relinquished it.
EISEN: Well, I think we're going to continue to see this furious assault on the constitution and laws by executive orders and executive power.
There's also been the wrongful firing of hundreds and impacts on thousands of federal civil servants, where Trump is trying to oust those individuals
wrongly and replace them with those who will execute his program of authoritarianism. Look for the court pushback, though.
I think, Christiane, the story of these first days of Trump's administration is, he's pushing to do what Orban and others have tried.