Don't fall for the war propaganda

927 Views | 11 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by Aunburdened
HawaiiBear33
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Cal88
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You just did.
PAC-10-BEAR
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Trump is a king who doesn't control the propaganda machine.
Aunburdened
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bearister
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Any war worth fighting and dying for is worth fighting and dying for by every member of all of the socioeconomic classes in the country.

When is the last time America fought one of those wars?
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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside

“I love Cal deeply, by the way, what are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
socaltownie
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God I hate that take and it is so incomplete (and inaccurate)

Just to start - Kronkite did not say that the war was lost. He said that it seemed that for all the rosey pronouncements from the theater, the enemy still had the ability to wage war. here is the exact quote.

"Tonight, back in more familiar surroundings in New York, we'd like to sum up our findings in Vietnam, an analysis that must be speculative, personal, subjective, Who won and who lost in the great Tet offensive against the cities? I'm not sure. The Viet Cong did not win by a knockout, but neither did we. The referees of history may make it a draw. Another standoff may be coming in the big battles expected south of the Demilitarized Zone, Khe sanh could well fall, with a terrible loss in American lives, prestige and morale, and this is a tragedy of our stubbornness there; but the bastion no longer is a key to the rest of the northern regions, and it is doubtful that the American forces can be defeated across the breadth of the DMZ with any substantial loss of ground. Another standoff. On the political front, past performance gives no confidence that the Vietnamese government can cope with its problems, now compounded by the attack on the cities, It may not fall, it may hold on but it probably won't show the dynamic qualities demanded of this young nation. Another standoff.
We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that Hanoi's winter - spring offensive has been forced by the Communist realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer's almost certain standoff will either end in real give - and - take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster.
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations. But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.
This is Walter Cronkite. Good night."

The "analysis" goes on to suggest a litany of the NeoCons greatest hits.

Here is what is evident not just from our experience but those of the French, The Soviets, the British, and a list of governments in the developing world fighting against irredentist movements.....Subjecting a population with nationalist aspirations is hard. Perhaps impossible. Asymetric warfare is too easy, too cheap and too brutal in the 20th and 21st century. If the Soviets could not sustain the will to fight against such a foe in Afghanistan then I pity the democracy that tries. The German (and Japanes) experience in WW2 was an exception and not the rule. The far better lesson - or at least the one more common - is the defeat of French in 1940 and then the rise of the resistance. Even with a compliant puppet government, the French resistance was able to exact a bloody toll on the occupiers who took action that no american leader would tolerate (you know, reprisal killings). A more measured conclusion would be that imperialsm is passe.
Take care of your Chicken
Cal88
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Chicago poli sci prof Pape:


The Strait of Hormuz is a chokepoint over the global economy, from the price of corn next year to mortgage rates in the US.
concordtom
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Cal88 said:


The Strait of Hormuz is a chokepoint over the global economy, from the price of corn next year to mortgage rates in the US.

And Trump is the choker

HawaiiBear33
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You have a good heart CT but I hope you can wake from the hatred spell you are under sooner than later.



C88 there are dozens of examples of these executions…

SCT I was too young for Nam and don't know if you are looking for some type of reply

B the casualties (so far) have been negligible compared to the millions that would have died with nuclear armed IRGC

DITTO FOR ECONOMIC CONCERNS WITH THE STRAIGHT (sorry caps)

Choose kindness
Aunburdened
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HawaiiBear33 said:

You have a good heart CT but I hope you can wake from the hatred spell you are under sooner than later.



C88 there are dozens of examples of these executions…

SCT I was too young for Nam and don't know if you are looking for some type of reply

B the casualties (so far) have been negligible compared to the millions that would have died with nuclear armed IRGC

DITTO FOR ECONOMIC CONCERNS WITH THE STRAIGHT (sorry caps)

Choose kindness

Iran can't kill Iranians, only the U.S. and Israel can kill Iranians.

Choose kindness.

Cal88
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HawaiiBear33 said:

You have a good heart CT but I hope you can wake from the hatred spell you are under sooner than later.



C88 there are dozens of examples of these executions…

SCT I was too young for Nam and don't know if you are looking for some type of reply

B the casualties (so far) have been negligible compared to the millions that would have died with nuclear armed IRGC

DITTO FOR ECONOMIC CONCERNS WITH THE STRAIGHT (sorry caps)

Choose kindness


Well this example is fake news, even anti-regime people admit as much.




It took me about 2min to find out, you should also have a modicum of skepticism with your sources, which are highly propagandized.




Aunburdened
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