dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Intense global debates sparked by events in the Tokyo and Paris games where transgender athletes dominated in several sports forced the IOC to reevaluate its position, after undertaking a lengthy study, and then to ban trans athletes

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Who were the transgender athletes that dominated in Paris and Tokyo?

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That is a great question, and maybe I should have said "allegedly". Because it gets real interesting. The most well known cases that are pointed out are various medal winning boxers (e.g., Imane Khief) and judo participants that were determined by their individual sport Olympic Federation to not be women based on genetic testing and the results were overturned by the International Olympic Committee (at the time, that IOC rules allowed men who identified as women to compete). So are they "transexuals"? I'm not really sure how the Olympics will now determine biological gender since they have now determined that biological men cannot compete, not matter how they identify. None of the women that were viewed by their sport associations as men had ever viewed themselves as men or transsexuals. There was an openly transgender woman that won a gold medal in soccer, and two other openly trans women, one in weightlifting and the other in mogul skiing that did okay, but didn't win medals. The whole thing is a quagmire, but as should be obvious from this thread, it is a big deal to a lotta people.

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My point is that I don't recall any transgender athletes that "dominated" in Tokyo.
The weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard failed to register a lift in three attempts in Tokyo.

Imane Khelif won Gold in boxing in Paris.

She has a female phenotype but also the SRY gene, which is correlated with males.
She has female hormones and she had lowered her testosterone for competition.
For the qualifying tournament at the Paris Games (held in Dakar) she had lowered her testosterone level to zero.

Khelif said she is willing to undergo testing in order to defend her Olympic title, as long as it is conducted by the IOC.

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Yeah we should be clear about Khelif that she is not "a man," she is intersex, a person with both male and female chromosomes. People like that are often raised as girls because they externally present as such (no *****) and may well have no idea about their condition until they find out later. That's pretty plausible given that she was raised in Iran, not exactly the most progressive place about gender fluidity.

The governing body for the sport decided that these kinds of intersex people shouldn't compete in women's boxing, which is not quite the same as saying someone like Khelif was "a man." Legitimately tricky problem with categorizing a person there.

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But they told us there are only 2 genders and everybody is either born a man or a woman.

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They?

Actually the Olympics now say that if you have the SRK gene you are a man and can't compete. Read my other post. Which since we can now leave the whole loaded trans label behind, is someone has a biological advantage of a man, should they be able to compete in women's sports without all the crap about about leaders propagating the rich ruling the world and Americans (and the rest of the world that competes in sports) being propagandized, and all the other stuff you throw in to avoid actually talking about the issue?

DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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There are couple others that presumably fit into the Khelif category. And you repeated what I said about the openly trans athletes. And you walked right into a set-up

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As opposed to you, I am not here for a "gotcha" or "set-up" moment.

I've probably been to more U.S. Outdoor National Championships and U.S. Olympic Track & Field Trials since 1984 than anyone here, combined, multiplied by 10.

I'm aware of the SRY gene detection policy by the IOC.
You might want to read the following article.

IOC revives gene testing: A costly, criticized policy returns to the Olympics

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So I ask you two questions:

If a person (note the absence of any label) has the advantages of male biology, should they be able to compete against women?

What testing would use to determine if that person should be able to compete?

dajo9 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Intense global debates sparked by events in the Tokyo and Paris games where transgender athletes dominated in several sports forced the IOC to reevaluate its position, after undertaking a lengthy study, and then to ban trans athletes

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Who were the transgender athletes that dominated in Paris and Tokyo?

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That is a great question, and maybe I should have said "allegedly". Because it gets real interesting. The most well known cases that are pointed out are various medal winning boxers (e.g., Imane Khief) and judo participants that were determined by their individual sport Olympic Federation to not be women based on genetic testing and the results were overturned by the International Olympic Committee (at the time, that IOC rules allowed men who identified as women to compete). So are they "transexuals"? I'm not really sure how the Olympics will now determine biological gender since they have now determined that biological men cannot compete, not matter how they identify. None of the women that were viewed by their sport associations as men had ever viewed themselves as men or transsexuals. There was an openly transgender woman that won a gold medal in soccer, and two other openly trans women, one in weightlifting and the other in mogul skiing that did okay, but didn't win medals. The whole thing is a quagmire, but as should be obvious from this thread, it is a big deal to a lotta people.

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Imane Khelif is not transgender. That is considered a crime in her country.

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Here we go with trying to politicize the issue. I know you want blame the leaders who want to promote the rich for doing this, but you seem to be the guy doing that here.

dajo9 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Intense global debates sparked by events in the Tokyo and Paris games where transgender athletes dominated in several sports forced the IOC to reevaluate its position, after undertaking a lengthy study, and then to ban trans athletes

---

Who were the transgender athletes that dominated in Paris and Tokyo?

---

That is a great question, and maybe I should have said "allegedly". Because it gets real interesting. The most well known cases that are pointed out are various medal winning boxers (e.g., Imane Khief) and judo participants that were determined by their individual sport Olympic Federation to not be women based on genetic testing and the results were overturned by the International Olympic Committee (at the time, that IOC rules allowed men who identified as women to compete). So are they "transexuals"? I'm not really sure how the Olympics will now determine biological gender since they have now determined that biological men cannot compete, not matter how they identify. None of the women that were viewed by their sport associations as men had ever viewed themselves as men or transsexuals. There was an openly transgender woman that won a gold medal in soccer, and two other openly trans women, one in weightlifting and the other in mogul skiing that did okay, but didn't win medals. The whole thing is a quagmire, but as should be obvious from this thread, it is a big deal to a lotta people.

---

My point is that I don't recall any transgender athletes that "dominated" in Tokyo.
The weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard failed to register a lift in three attempts in Tokyo.

Imane Khelif won Gold in boxing in Paris.

She has a female phenotype but also the SRY gene, which is correlated with males.
She has female hormones and she had lowered her testosterone for competition.
For the qualifying tournament at the Paris Games (held in Dakar) she had lowered her testosterone level to zero.

Khelif said she is willing to undergo testing in order to defend her Olympic title, as long as it is conducted by the IOC.

---

Yeah we should be clear about Khelif that she is not "a man," she is intersex, a person with both male and female chromosomes. People like that are often raised as girls because they externally present as such (no *****) and may well have no idea about their condition until they find out later. That's pretty plausible given that she was raised in Iran, not exactly the most progressive place about gender fluidity.

The governing body for the sport decided that these kinds of intersex people shouldn't compete in women's boxing, which is not quite the same as saying someone like Khelif was "a man." Legitimately tricky problem with categorizing a person there.

---

But they told us there are only 2 genders and everybody is either born a man or a woman.

---

They?

Actually the Olympics now say that if you have the SRK gene you are a man and can't compete. Read my other post. Which since we can now leave the whole loaded trans label behind, is someone has a biological advantage of a man, should they be able to compete in women's sports without all the crap about about leaders propagating the rich ruling the world and Americans (and the rest of the world that competes in sports) being propagandized, and all the other stuff you throw in to avoid actually talking about the issue?

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Yes, that is what they told us. Now you are telling me that somebody who was identified female at birth has now been re-gendered by the IOC? Were they wrong?

If I am not discussing exactly what you want me to discuss it is because I discuss what I think is important

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Who exactly is the evil "they"?

Just guessing, but you are not getting there is a distinction between someone whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth and who seeks to physically align their body with the gender they want to identity through a medical process in contrast that there are people who are assigned an identity at birth that is not reflected in their actual gene make-up (I'm saying that in general laymen terms). The people who are concerned about women's sports generally don't want either group playing in women's sports. And thus the Olympics has said that is you have a biological male advantage as measured by the test we give you, you are considered a man and can't compete. In other words they being the Olympics and individual sports federations don't make any distinction.

Then we get to the trans label. My understanding is trans is someone who identifies as another gender that they are assigned. Despite what has been said by SYCasey here about taking hormones or the like, it is pretty clear that actually transitioning in any way (such as receiving female hormones) is a personal choice. Those not taking hormones or any other transitioning still retain the trans status.

As I understand, a person's gender identity is based on how they feel inside, not on gene tests or body parts. If a trans woman continues to identify as a woman after a gene test says she has male chromosomes, she is still a transgender woman. Gene tests do not change a person's true gender identity. So those who label, would consider Khelfi a trans woman, where she likely just considers herself a woman. But I hope that answers Diablos's questioning on whether trans women are winning (I don't make-up the rules on labels). In any event, the labels are irrelevant for Khefil who will now be considered a man for purposes of competing in her sport.

Whether what is deemed a biological male should compete in women's sports is a different issue to most women and lot of men, than whatever political conspiracy you see taking advantage of the issue. You don't seem to understand that. What you are sayig is anyone that doesn't agree with you is a sheep being taken advantage of. I'm not sure you read anything this long, so let me put this more simply, by quoting Bearister:

"It is ridiculous, but not for the reason trans women athletes think it is. It is exclusively a fairness issue, not a political or a discrimination issue."

And it is an issue the WNBA management better figure out, because it doesn't seem to be going away. What happens if a WNBA player like say Griner (I don't really know this is a concern for her, but everyome seems to equate her with being a man) is on an Olympic team, is tested, disqualified and outed?

wifeisafurd said:

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dajo9 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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DiabloWags said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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Intense global debates sparked by events in the Tokyo and Paris games where transgender athletes dominated in several sports forced the IOC to reevaluate its position, after undertaking a lengthy study, and then to ban trans athletes

---

Who were the transgender athletes that dominated in Paris and Tokyo?

---

That is a great question, and maybe I should have said "allegedly". Because it gets real interesting. The most well known cases that are pointed out are various medal winning boxers (e.g., Imane Khief) and judo participants that were determined by their individual sport Olympic Federation to not be women based on genetic testing and the results were overturned by the International Olympic Committee (at the time, that IOC rules allowed men who identified as women to compete). So are they "transexuals"? I'm not really sure how the Olympics will now determine biological gender since they have now determined that biological men cannot compete, not matter how they identify. None of the women that were viewed by their sport associations as men had ever viewed themselves as men or transsexuals. There was an openly transgender woman that won a gold medal in soccer, and two other openly trans women, one in weightlifting and the other in mogul skiing that did okay, but didn't win medals. The whole thing is a quagmire, but as should be obvious from this thread, it is a big deal to a lotta people.

---

My point is that I don't recall any transgender athletes that "dominated" in Tokyo.
The weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard failed to register a lift in three attempts in Tokyo.

Imane Khelif won Gold in boxing in Paris.

She has a female phenotype but also the SRY gene, which is correlated with males.
She has female hormones and she had lowered her testosterone for competition.
For the qualifying tournament at the Paris Games (held in Dakar) she had lowered her testosterone level to zero.

Khelif said she is willing to undergo testing in order to defend her Olympic title, as long as it is conducted by the IOC.

---

Yeah we should be clear about Khelif that she is not "a man," she is intersex, a person with both male and female chromosomes. People like that are often raised as girls because they externally present as such (no *****) and may well have no idea about their condition until they find out later. That's pretty plausible given that she was raised in Iran, not exactly the most progressive place about gender fluidity.

The governing body for the sport decided that these kinds of intersex people shouldn't compete in women's boxing, which is not quite the same as saying someone like Khelif was "a man." Legitimately tricky problem with categorizing a person there.

---

But they told us there are only 2 genders and everybody is either born a man or a woman.

---

They?

Actually the Olympics now say that if you have the SRK gene you are a man and can't compete. Read my other post. Which since we can now leave the whole loaded trans label behind, is someone has a biological advantage of a man, should they be able to compete in women's sports without all the crap about about leaders propagating the rich ruling the world and Americans (and the rest of the world that competes in sports) being propagandized, and all the other stuff you throw in to avoid actually talking about the issue?

---

Yes, that is what they told us. Now you are telling me that somebody who was identified female at birth has now been re-gendered by the IOC? Were they wrong?

If I am not discussing exactly what you want me to discuss it is because I discuss what I think is important

---

Who exactly is the evil "they"?

Just guessing, but you are not getting there is a distinction between someone whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth and who seeks to physically align their body with the gender they want to identity through a medical process in contrast that there are people who are assigned an identity at birth that is not reflected in their actual gene make-up (I'm saying that in general laymen terms). The people who are concerned about women's sports generally don't want either group playing in women's sports. And thus the Olympics has said that is you have a biological male advantage as measured by the test we give you, you are considered a man and can't compete. In other words they being the Olympics and individual sports federations don't make any distinction.

Then we get to the trans label. My understanding is trans is someone who identifies as another gender that they are assigned. Despite what has been said by SYCasey here about taking hormones or the like, it is pretty clear that actually transitioning in any way (such as receiving female hormones) is a personal choice. Those not taking hormones or any other transitioning still retain the trans status.

As I understand, a person's gender identity is based on how they feel inside, not on gene tests or body parts. If a trans woman continues to identify as a woman after a gene test says she has male chromosomes, she is still a transgender woman. Gene tests do not change a person's true gender identity. So those who label, would consider Khelfi a trans woman, where she likely just considers herself a woman. But I hope that answers Diablos's questioning on whether trans women are winning (I don't make-up the rules on labels). In any event, the labels are irrelevant for Khefil who will now be considered a man for purposes of competing in her sport.

Whether what is deemed a biological male should compete in women's sports is a different issue to most women and lot of men, than whatever political conspiracy you see taking advantage of the issue. You don't seem to understand that. What you are sayig is anyone that doesn't agree with you is a sheep being taken advantage of. I'm not sure you read anything this long, so let me put this more simply, by quoting Bearister:

"It is ridiculous, but not for the reason trans women athletes think it is. It is exclusively a fairness issue, not a political or a discrimination issue."

And it is an issue the WNBA management better figure out, because it doesn't seem to be going away. What happens if a WNBA player like say Griner (I don't really know this is a concern for her, but everyome seems to equate her with being a man) is on an Olympic team, is tested, disqualified and outed?

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Sounds like they were wrong.

When you say I consider anyone who disagrees with me to be a sheep, I have to ask - disagrees about what? Are you creating straw men again?

dajo9 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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dajo9 said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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DiabloWags said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

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Intense global debates sparked by events in the Tokyo and Paris games where transgender athletes dominated in several sports forced the IOC to reevaluate its position, after undertaking a lengthy study, and then to ban trans athletes

---

Who were the transgender athletes that dominated in Paris and Tokyo?

---

That is a great question, and maybe I should have said "allegedly". Because it gets real interesting. The most well known cases that are pointed out are various medal winning boxers (e.g., Imane Khief) and judo participants that were determined by their individual sport Olympic Federation to not be women based on genetic testing and the results were overturned by the International Olympic Committee (at the time, that IOC rules allowed men who identified as women to compete). So are they "transexuals"? I'm not really sure how the Olympics will now determine biological gender since they have now determined that biological men cannot compete, not matter how they identify. None of the women that were viewed by their sport associations as men had ever viewed themselves as men or transsexuals. There was an openly transgender woman that won a gold medal in soccer, and two other openly trans women, one in weightlifting and the other in mogul skiing that did okay, but didn't win medals. The whole thing is a quagmire, but as should be obvious from this thread, it is a big deal to a lotta people.

---

My point is that I don't recall any transgender athletes that "dominated" in Tokyo.
The weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard failed to register a lift in three attempts in Tokyo.

Imane Khelif won Gold in boxing in Paris.

She has a female phenotype but also the SRY gene, which is correlated with males.
She has female hormones and she had lowered her testosterone for competition.
For the qualifying tournament at the Paris Games (held in Dakar) she had lowered her testosterone level to zero.

Khelif said she is willing to undergo testing in order to defend her Olympic title, as long as it is conducted by the IOC.

---

Yeah we should be clear about Khelif that she is not "a man," she is intersex, a person with both male and female chromosomes. People like that are often raised as girls because they externally present as such (no *****) and may well have no idea about their condition until they find out later. That's pretty plausible given that she was raised in Iran, not exactly the most progressive place about gender fluidity.

The governing body for the sport decided that these kinds of intersex people shouldn't compete in women's boxing, which is not quite the same as saying someone like Khelif was "a man." Legitimately tricky problem with categorizing a person there.

---

But they told us there are only 2 genders and everybody is either born a man or a woman.

---

They?

Actually the Olympics now say that if you have the SRK gene you are a man and can't compete. Read my other post. Which since we can now leave the whole loaded trans label behind, is someone has a biological advantage of a man, should they be able to compete in women's sports without all the crap about about leaders propagating the rich ruling the world and Americans (and the rest of the world that competes in sports) being propagandized, and all the other stuff you throw in to avoid actually talking about the issue?

---

Yes, that is what they told us. Now you are telling me that somebody who was identified female at birth has now been re-gendered by the IOC? Were they wrong?

If I am not discussing exactly what you want me to discuss it is because I discuss what I think is important

---

Who exactly is the evil "they"?

Just guessing, but you are not getting there is a distinction between someone whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth and who seeks to physically align their body with the gender they want to identity through a medical process in contrast that there are people who are assigned an identity at birth that is not reflected in their actual gene make-up (I'm saying that in general laymen terms). The people who are concerned about women's sports generally don't want either group playing in women's sports. And thus the Olympics has said that is you have a biological male advantage as measured by the test we give you, you are considered a man and can't compete. In other words they being the Olympics and individual sports federations don't make any distinction.

Then we get to the trans label. My understanding is trans is someone who identifies as another gender that they are assigned. Despite what has been said by SYCasey here about taking hormones or the like, it is pretty clear that actually transitioning in any way (such as receiving female hormones) is a personal choice. Those not taking hormones or any other transitioning still retain the trans status.

As I understand, a person's gender identity is based on how they feel inside, not on gene tests or body parts. If a trans woman continues to identify as a woman after a gene test says she has male chromosomes, she is still a transgender woman. Gene tests do not change a person's true gender identity. So those who label, would consider Khelfi a trans woman, where she likely just considers herself a woman. But I hope that answers Diablos's questioning on whether trans women are winning (I don't make-up the rules on labels). In any event, the labels are irrelevant for Khefil who will now be considered a man for purposes of competing in her sport.

Whether what is deemed a biological male should compete in women's sports is a different issue to most women and lot of men, than whatever political conspiracy you see taking advantage of the issue. You don't seem to understand that. What you are sayig is anyone that doesn't agree with you is a sheep being taken advantage of. I'm not sure you read anything this long, so let me put this more simply, by quoting Bearister:

"It is ridiculous, but not for the reason trans women athletes think it is. It is exclusively a fairness issue, not a political or a discrimination issue."

And it is an issue the WNBA management better figure out, because it doesn't seem to be going away. What happens if a WNBA player like say Griner (I don't really know this is a concern for her, but everyome seems to equate her with being a man) is on an Olympic team, is tested, disqualified and outed?

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Sounds like they were wrong.

When you say I consider anyone who disagrees with me to be a sheep, I have to ask - disagrees about what? Are you creating straw men again?

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Who is they you keep referring to and why are "they" wrong? You sound just like Trump frequently using the pronoun "they" in his speeches and interviews as a rhetorical device to establish an "us versus them" dynamic.

In this thread you disagree with the 75% of Americans who want only people born female to play in women sports. Recall you were the one that said Americans with this view "are highly propagandized and easily led." Sodden likje sheep tome - so go eat some straw.

The WNBA responded by saying they have no Trans athletes and the issue therefore is moot. They also said only biological women, not those born men, can play, and that the attempts by the two men were in bad faith. So on to refs?

dajo9 said:

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concordtom said:

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oski003 said:

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36% of high school-aged girls actively play on a sports team.

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99.9% will never face a trans athlete.

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Millions of marketing dollars and / or free media is spent to raise alarm about this non-issue because the ruling class needs scapegoats to generate votes so they can continue taking all the money. Americans are highly propagandized and easily led.

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Yes, Americans are highly propagandized and easily led. But the rest of your claim about me believing people I disagree with are sheep is your imagination. In this case, people I agree with are sheep. It's not the belief that I am questioning, it is the fervor of the belief - I couldn't imagine wasting a Federal vote over the issue while they are robbing us blind. So chew on that.