Safe Space Warning - Political Economy Thread

37,487 Views | 342 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by calbear93
GB54
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Big C_Cal;842761741 said:

Republicans will "get rid" of Obamacare, then come back with something that is craftily tweaked so that it can be marketed as something completely different. Of course, they will not call it "Romneycare", but it will sound a lot better to someone who never wanted a program named after some Muslim born in Kenya.


The irony is what we have is Romneycare, a Republican initiative, which they fought tooth and nail to their great advantage. Obama was always negotiating with himself.
Cal88
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burritos;842761740 said:

You are presuming that only Latinos will do the manual labor. If life is so crappy in the U.S. and Canada pays a livable wage for all jobs including manual jobs, you would think at least a few Americans would cross to Canada to earn that wage plus healthcare.


You can't get healthcare, a driver's license, cheap college education or a mortgage in Canada if you're illegal. Their point system immigration policy is set up to screen unqualified labor. There is a growing segment of Latin American immigrants in Canada, but those tend to be young middle class college-educated legal immigrants from places like Colombia or Peru.

NAFTA has removed trade barriers but it has kept barriers in place in terms of labor movement, you can't just decide to work in Canada if you're American, and vice-versa, but in practical terms migrants from Mexico and Central America can move into the US, get drivers licences, qualify for in-state tuition etc.
burritos
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Is health insurance really insurance if most people utilize it and/or many people utilize it constantly? I have homeowner's insurance which I've never filed a claim, but it'd be great if I could use those dollars to maybe fix my pipes so that a disastrous leak could be prevented in which the insurance would be liable for. It's not so much insurance as it is groupon for healthcare with a disaster rider.
sycasey
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GB54;842761798 said:

The irony is what we have is Romneycare, a Republican initiative, which they fought tooth and nail to their great advantage.


This is what makes me pessimistic about the future of the country under all-Republican leadership. I haven't seen much of an actual ideology from them, just obstruction. Seems like their primary objective has simply been consolidating power, not doing things to improve the country. Will they flip a switch now that they are finally in power? I will try to have hope, but if I'm being honest . . . I don't have much. For most of my life, Republicans in power has meant not much progress on anything (health care, the environment, the economy). Probably not since Reagan can we point to any real accomplishments by Republican presidents.

Again, hope they prove me wrong. But the early signs from Trump are not encouraging.
BooDoo
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Not Just Obamacare: Medicaid, Medicare Also On GOP's Chopping Block


All those old white Trump voters who are on Medicaid and Medicare are going to find out that they voted to cut their own benefits!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obamacare-medicaid-medicare-gop-chopping-block_us_582a19b8e4b060adb56fbae7?jn7jtocg8bzqia4i
dajo9
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gocalbear;842761911 said:

Not Just Obamacare: Medicaid, Medicare Also On GOP's Chopping Block


All those old white Trump voters who are on Medicaid and Medicare are going to find out that they voted to cut their own benefits!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obamacare-medicaid-medicare-gop-chopping-block_us_582a19b8e4b060adb56fbae7?jn7jtocg8bzqia4i


No, the legislation will not affect current beneficiaries. The older folks are pulling up the ladder behind themselves.
sycasey
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dajo9;842761915 said:

No, the legislation will not affect current beneficiaries.


Though if the Democrats are smart, they will play it that way.
glb78
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dajo9;842761915 said:

No, the legislation will not affect current beneficiaries. The older folks are pulling up the ladder behind themselves.


You would think they would care about their kids and grandchildren. Perhaps not.
burritos
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gocalbear;842761911 said:

Not Just Obamacare: Medicaid, Medicare Also On GOP’s Chopping Block


All those old white Trump voters who are on Medicaid and Medicare are going to find out that they voted to cut their own benefits!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obamacare-medicaid-medicare-gop-chopping-block_us_582a19b8e4b060adb56fbae7?jn7jtocg8bzqia4i

Make 'Merica great again! I'll take that 6% tax cut thank you very much.
LudwigsFountain
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gocalbear;842761911 said:

Not Just Obamacare: Medicaid, Medicare Also On GOP's Chopping Block


All those old white Trump voters who are on Medicaid and Medicare are going to find out that they voted to cut their own benefits!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obamacare-medicaid-medicare-gop-chopping-block_us_582a19b8e4b060adb56fbae7?jn7jtocg8bzqia4i



The problem I have with the referenced article and similar other ones is that they seem to imply that these programs would be just fine if they were left alone. I believe there is going to be some combination of benefit reduction and increased individual financial burden (through higher taxes and premiums) for Medicare and Medicaid no matter who is in power. We aren't taxing ourselves sufficiently to sustain these programs in their current form -- Medicare has a $3.6 trillion unfunded liability according to the latest Trustees report. And in my experience (When I was working I felt a duty to read the documents) the projections in these reports have consistently understated future expenditures, in part because the calculations include cost-savings mechanisms, such as caps on physician payments, that are always waived.

The longer we delay making any adjustments to taxes, premiums and benefits, the more abrupt the adjustment is going to have to be. Medicare costs increase substantially once beneficiaries reach 80 and in ten years we boomers are going to reach that threshold. I'd like to see us have a thorough and honest discussion about how we address this issue, but I'm not holding my breath.
joe amos yaks
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dajo9;842761915 said:

No, the legislation will not affect current beneficiaries. The older folks are pulling up the ladder behind themselves.


I'm afraid this is true.
Bear8
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gobears725;842761465 said:

I agree with the sentiment that the responsibility for a lot this falls with the republican party. They allowed him to rise and that was mostly in part due to their rash of incompetence in their party over the past decade or so.

However, I firmly believe that the responsibility of this election is due to a complete failure of strategy in Clinton's camp. They attacked Trump's character of which everyone already knew that he doesnt have character and this was a trap. It became a game of who is the bigger villain because in my opinion there's no denying that both are villains and its up for debate in terms who is actually the worse person. They let him in this by running such a negative campaign against him instead of focusing on the issues and Trump's camp got the last punch in because of the reopening of the email scandal just prior to the election. It simply became of game of who had the ball last. Her camp never learned from the republican primaries where Cruz, Rubio etc lost by attacking trumps character. People had already proven that they didnt care about his character, so it was a waste of time to attack him in that manner as the primary strategy.


I don't necessarily agree that Clinton threw rocks at Trump. Her responses in the debates, for instance, were directed at pointing out "this is what you get with Trump" when he went on one of his rants and started calling her corrupt. I thought she did a good job of not falling for his scam and staying on point.
the reason why i think people should accept this election. the incompetence of the democratic party. they absolutely deserved to lose


The Comey letter of October 28, may changed some opinions, but overall I believe people had made up their minds long before.
Bear8
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I don't necessarily agree that Clinton threw rocks at Trump. Her responses in the debates, for instance, were directed at pointing out "this is what you get with Trump" when he went on one of his rants and started calling her corrupt. I thought she did a good job of not falling for his scam and staying on point.
LarsBear74
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sycasey;842761879 said:

This is what makes me pessimistic about the future of the country under all-Republican leadership. I haven't seen much of an actual ideology from them, just obstruction. Seems like their primary objective has simply been consolidating power, not doing things to improve the country. Will they flip a switch now that they are finally in power? I will try to have hope, but if I'm being honest . . . I don't have much. For most of my life, Republicans in power has meant not much progress on anything (health care, the environment, the economy). Probably not since Reagan can we point to any real accomplishments by Republican presidents.

Again, hope they prove me wrong. But the early signs from Trump are not encouraging.


I agree, and we're seeing this across the board through state and local governments too. I call this "failure to govern" syndrome, just a general goal to monkey-wrench "the system" and not move us forward.
sycasey
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6bear6;842762028 said:

I don't necessarily agree that Clinton threw rocks at Trump. Her responses in the debates, for instance, were directed at pointing out "this is what you get with Trump" when he went on one of his rants and started calling her corrupt. I thought she did a good job of not falling for his scam and staying on point.


In general, I don't think Clinton's debate performances were the problem. She gained in the polls every time. It was the other general nuts-and-bolts campaign stuff that seemed off (which was surprising, given the resources she had at her disposal).
sycasey
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LarsBear74;842762030 said:

I agree, and we're seeing this across the board through state and local governments too. I call this "failure to govern" syndrome, just a general goal to monkey-wrench "the system" and not move us forward.


I mean, the hope is that them finally being power forces the spotlight on them to actually govern, and if they don't they will get voted out.

That's if Trump hasn't managed to set up an authoritarian kleptocracy by then.
joe amos yaks
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sycasey;842762032 said:

I mean, the hope is that them finally being power forces the spotlight on them to actually govern, and if they don't they will get voted out.

That's if Trump hasn't managed to set up an authoritarian kleptocracy by then.


P-elect Trump is a stooge just like the jellybean boy was a prop.
dajo9
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LudwigsFountain;842762021 said:



The longer we delay making any adjustments to taxes, premiums and benefits, the more abrupt the adjustment is going to have to be. Medicare costs increase substantially once beneficiaries reach 80 and in ten years we boomers are going to reach that threshold. I'd like to see us have a thorough and honest discussion about how we address this issue, but I'm not holding my breath.


The old we have to cut benefits now because there is a risk we may have to cut benefits in the future argument.

I would have liked to have an honest discussion as well. The President-elect said he would keep Medicare. Should I take him at his word?
tequila4kapp
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This thread has become a joke. Some of you are so smart and have it all figured out, except for that part where you continue to believe it was about race and gender and hatred instead of class issues, like liberal elites talking down to and overlooking the concerns of every day people.
GUNNERMATE
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tequila4kapp;842762081 said:

this thread has become a joke. Some of you are so smart and have it all figured out, except for that part where you continue to believe it was about race and gender and hatred instead of class issues, like liberal elites talking down to and overlooking the concerns of every day people.


amen
sycasey
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tequila4kapp;842762081 said:

This thread has become a joke. Some of you are so smart and have it all figured out, except for that part where you continue to believe it was about race and gender and hatred instead of class issues, like liberal elites talking down to and overlooking the concerns of every day people.


Is it possible to agree that it's about both things?
OdontoBear66
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tequila4kapp;842762081 said:

This thread has become a joke. Some of you are so smart and have it all figured out, except for that part where you continue to believe it was about race and gender and hatred instead of class issues, like liberal elites talking down to and overlooking the concerns of every day people.


Actually the liberal elites are having a darn difficult time figuring out just why Hillary lost. Kinda confusing for such smart folk.
Goobear
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OdontoBear66;842762089 said:

Actually the liberal elites are having a darn difficult time figuring out just why Hillary lost. Kinda confusing for such smart folk.


Amen
sycasey
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OdontoBear66;842762089 said:

Actually the liberal elites are having a darn difficult time figuring out just why Hillary lost. Kinda confusing for such smart folk.


How about a different tack?

For Republicans, now that you have all the power, what would you like to see your government do? What would make for a successful Trump administration?

Then we can come back and review in a few years to see how it's going.
Big C
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tequila4kapp;842762081 said:

This thread has become a joke. Some of you are so smart and have it all figured out, except for that part where you continue to believe it was about race and gender and hatred instead of class issues, like liberal elites talking down to and overlooking the concerns of every day people.


Sounds like you have it all figured out: Smart!
LudwigsFountain
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dajo9;842762063 said:

The old we have to cut benefits now because there is a risk we may have to cut benefits in the future argument.

I would have liked to have an honest discussion as well. The President-elect said he would keep Medicare. Should I take him at his word?


I think you just put words in my mouth. I said there has to be some adjustment to Medicare as it currently exists and that the adjustment will necessarily involve some combination of increased taxes and premiums and decreased benefits. I don't think there's a 'risk' we'll have to do something; the math tells me it's virtually a certainty that we're going to have to change the program. Maybe we don't decrease benefits at all, and rely on more taxes exclusively; I don't know. The one thing I do strongly suspect is that it's going to be well nigh politically impossible to take away the currently-construed Medicare from people who already have it. As a result, the longer we wait to do something the harder we're going to make it for the succeeding generations. Personally, I'd accept higher costs now in order to make the program more affordable for my kids and grandkids. My fear is we won't do anything until there's an absolute crisis.
dajo9
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LudwigsFountain;842762107 said:

I think you just put words in my mouth. I said there has to be some adjustment to Medicare as it currently exists and that the adjustment will necessarily involve some combination of increased taxes and premiums and decreased benefits. I don't think there's a 'risk' we'll have to do something; the math tells me it's virtually a certainty that we're going to have to change the program. Maybe we don't decrease benefits at all, and rely on more taxes exclusively; I don't know. The one thing I do strongly suspect is that it's going to be well nigh politically impossible to take away the currently-construed Medicare from people who already have it. As a result, the longer we wait to do something the harder we're going to make it for the succeeding generations. Personally, I'd accept higher costs now in order to make the program more affordable for my kids and grandkids. My fear is we won't do anything until there's an absolute crisis.


OK, we disagree on what to do about Medicare.

But more importantly, did the President-Elect lay out an argument for changing Medicare in an open honest discussion and did the people vote for that change?

No on both counts. The President-Elect said he would keep Medicare and the people didn't vote for him, they voted for Hillary.
OdontoBear66
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sycasey;842762093 said:

How about a different tack?

For Republicans, now that you have all the power, what would you like to see your government do? What would make for a successful Trump administration?

Then we can come back and review in a few years to see how it's going.


Remember you have not asked your prototype Republican. Basis of fiscally conservative beliefs, with moderation on social issues. So what I say will differ from many Republicans who may wish to speak up more with a party line.

To keep it simple, one issue at a time. Starting with immigration, I would like to see what was done in the Reagan years improved on. As I recall we had some 5M illegal immigrants in the country in the 80s and a split Executive/Legislative situation. The deal that was supposed to be worked out was a path to citizenship for the 5M, and assurances that we would be able to control our immigration (borders) going down the road. What we got was the former and none of the latter, so we wind up with 11M illegal immigrants currently.

So before any of the former is allowed, demonstration of the latter is essential. Clear out the entire criminal illegal element that is currently in the United States. Do whatever is necessary to assure that what happened between the 80s and currently does not happen again. You may call that whatever you want, the usual term is "a wall" which to me seems unnecessary and harsh in action and words. But the US must be able to control who does or does not come into the country. Then, and only then that such is demonstrated, let us proceed with a path of citizenship for the 9M (or so) that remain. To me this is pragmatic, compassionate and reasonable.

With the Syrian refugee situation, much the same thinking. Immigration with adequate vetting, but only then. Vetting=a welcome.
Goobear
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As far as controlling borders is concerned. I think it goes deeper namely property rights...

If the US does not want to control its border i.e. protecting the country's property; than how can it claim to protect individual citizens' own property rights? It is a slippery slope...
GMP
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Goobear;842762175 said:

As far as controlling borders is concerned. I think it goes deeper namely property rights...

If the US does not want to control its border i.e. protecting the country's property; than how can it claim to protect individual citizens' own property rights? It is a slippery slope...


Because it's done so for 200+ years. And you realize the "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy, correct?

Here's another illogical slippery slope argument: If the US Govt can deport you for being here illegally, what's to stop them from deporting other types of people they don't want here. It's a slippery slope...
sycasey
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OdontoBear66;842762161 said:

Remember you have not asked your prototype Republican. Basis of fiscally conservative beliefs, with moderation on social issues. So what I say will differ from many Republicans who may wish to speak up more with a party line.

To keep it simple, one issue at a time. Starting with immigration, I would like to see what was done in the Reagan years improved on. As I recall we had some 5M illegal immigrants in the country in the 80s and a split Executive/Legislative situation. The deal that was supposed to be worked out was a path to citizenship for the 5M, and assurances that we would be able to control our immigration (borders) going down the road. What we got was the former and none of the latter, so we wind up with 11M illegal immigrants currently.

So before any of the former is allowed, demonstration of the latter is essential. Clear out the entire criminal illegal element that is currently in the United States. Do whatever is necessary to assure that what happened between the 80s and currently does not happen again. You may call that whatever you want, the usual term is "a wall" which to me seems unnecessary and harsh in action and words. But the US must be able to control who does or does not come into the country. Then, and only then that such is demonstrated, let us proceed with a path of citizenship for the 9M (or so) that remain. To me this is pragmatic, compassionate and reasonable.

With the Syrian refugee situation, much the same thinking. Immigration with adequate vetting, but only then. Vetting=a welcome.


Most of this seems reasonable to me, though the logistics of finding and removing the actual "criminal" element among immigrants seems tough. How do you identify them outside of normal policing? Special focus on the foreign-born by law enforcement? That sounds like something that will inevitably lead to overreach.

In any event, the rhetoric coming from actual GOP officials sounds much more hard-line than this (Trump wants to name Steve Bannon one of his top advisors, for Chrissakes). That is what has me scared. I hope you and your fellow conservatives are willing to hold your leaders to account if and when they go too far.
LudwigsFountain
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dajo9;842762138 said:

OK, we disagree on what to do about Medicare.

But more importantly, did the President-Elect lay out an argument for changing Medicare in an open honest discussion and did the people vote for that change?

No on both counts. The President-Elect said he would keep Medicare and the people didn't vote for him, they voted for Hillary.


I agree there was't any honest discussion, by either candidate. I didn't pay much attention to Trump, because I don't think even he knows (or cares) where he stands. As for Clinton, from what I read her position was that she would add a few more price controls to Medicare, expand it to those in their 50's and protect it from being destroyed by the Republicans. Given my believe that changes to Medicare are inevitable, i didn't see that as very honest.

Not trying to start any argument here, but I don't gather what your position on Medicare is. That's probably because I generally stay out of political threads and only read the posts within them related to health care, a particular interest of mine. So I haven't read all the posts here. If your position is that we don't need to make much, if any, adjustment to Medicare I think you owe it to yourself to read the Trustees' report I mentioned. Here's the concluding paragraph from the latest one:

"The projections in this year’s report continue to demonstrate the need for timely and effective action to address Medicare’s remaining financial challenges—including the projected depletion of the HI trust fund, this fund’s long-range financial imbalance, and the rapid growth in Medicare expenditures. Furthermore, if the growth in Medicare costs is comparable to growth under the illustrative alternative projections, then these further policy reforms will have to address much larger financial challenges than those assumed under current law. The Board of Trustees believes that solutions can and must be found to ensure the financial integrity of HI in the short and long term and to reduce the rate of growth in Medicare costs through viable means. Consideration of such reforms should not be delayed. The sooner the solutions are enacted, the more flexible and gradual they can be. Moreover, the early introduction of reforms increases the time available for affected individuals and organizations—including health care providers, beneficiaries, and taxpayers—to adjust their expectations and behavior. The Board recommends that Congress and the executive branch work closely together with a sense of urgency to address these challenges."


This conclusion has been there for years and consistently made across both Democratic and Republican administrations. (The report is prepared under the authority of the relevant cabinet members.) The statement in bold is particularly important. As I said before, the projections in these reports have consistently overestimated the program's performance. I just looked up what the 2006 report predicted for 2015. It had Medicare generating a $21 billion surplus. The actual result was a $3.5 billion deficit. Again, that's due in part to including in the baseline projections the cost-reducing effects of provisions in the current law that are always waived.

As long as we have politicians refusing to address the issues raised in the report and characterizing any proposal to adjust Medicare as an effort to 'destroy' it, we won't have an honest discussion.
OdontoBear66
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sycasey;842762196 said:

Most of this seems reasonable to me, though the logistics of finding and removing the actual "criminal" element among immigrants seems tough. How do you identify them outside of normal policing? Special focus on the foreign-born by law enforcement? That sounds like something that will inevitably lead to overreach.

In any event, the rhetoric coming from actual GOP officials sounds much more hard-line than this (Trump wants to name Steve Bannon one of his top advisors, for Chrissakes). That is what has me scared. I hope you and your fellow conservatives are willing to hold your leaders to account if and when they go too far.


Oh c'mon sycasey. #1 I make to pretext that I am a solutions person. But I hardly envision troops in the night breaking down doors. There are many, many known illegal criminals in the US known right now. Gone. Then as others cause serious trouble, Gone. This need not be a witch hunt. The bigger problem is getting the vocal acceptance of those who will benefit from my aforementioned policy, and the legislators of our country, to in fact ACT. Do it first. Then allow a path to citizenship. Undermine it and more of building the wall much come into play. This must be serious. We tried in the 80s, failed and it has lead to the current problems.
sycasey
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OdontoBear66;842762225 said:

Oh c'mon sycasey. #1 I make to pretext that I am a solutions person. But I hardly envision troops in the night breaking down doors. There are many, many known illegal criminals in the US known right now. Gone. Then as others cause serious trouble, Gone. This need not be a witch hunt. The bigger problem is getting the vocal acceptance of those who will benefit from my aforementioned policy, and the legislators of our country, to in fact ACT. Do it first. Then allow a path to citizenship. Undermine it and more of building the wall much come into play. This must be serious. We tried in the 80s, failed and it has lead to the current problems.


I was speaking of the potential for overreach and abuse in trying to round up these criminals. Does this seem like reasonable policy to you?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-muslim-registry-immigrants-policy-kris-bobach-reinstate-wall-a7420296.html

A registry for members of a religious minority? I know where I've heard that before.
Cal88
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sycasey;842762031 said:

In general, I don't think Clinton's debate performances were the problem. She gained in the polls every time. It was the other general nuts-and-bolts campaign stuff that seemed off (which was surprising, given the resources she had at her disposal).


Having the questions in advance was pretty helpful there.
 
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