I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency).

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections?

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election?

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined?

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation?

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person?

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified?

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency?

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office?

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators?

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents?

11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all?

I am now a registered Republican, so I will allow myself to answer:

Edit: Self-censored for fear of getting banned from site.

They're standing on the edge of a cliff staring down into the abyss like the rest of us wondering how in the hell did we get here and when will help get here? There are still a few who are enamored of the illustrious leader who are willing to fling themselves off the cliff

BearNIt said:

---

They're standing on the edge of a cliff staring down into the abyss like the rest of us wondering how in the hell did we get here and when will help get here? There are still a few who are enamored of the illustrious leader who are willing to fling themselves off the cliff

---

Are they? That would give me some hope if true? You wonder how countries fall into moral decay and why the people don't rise up and stop it...and then you watch FOX news and you see the lies and the hatred and the sense that every message and lever of power is being manipulated...and that people are listening and believing, and you come to understand how it happens in your own lifetime in your own country, and that the nice couple next door with the American flag on their SUV are exactly the same as those who were silent and complicit under totalitarian regimes in the past.

Twenty years from now, hopefully not after a great war and the loss of our fundamental American identity and rights, these same people will still wave the flag for whomever is in power then and have no recollection of supporting this President now. They will watch the movie about Mueller's heroic investigation and get teary eyed and say "what a great American hero" even as they shout "end the investigation" today.

I am so disappointed with the character of our country and what we have allowed the Conservatives to say in the culture wars. There is no we-said, they-said, when it comes to the culture war. The conservatives bred antipathy, judgement, regression, mean-spiritedness, hatred...they own that and can't use their BS excuses of identity politics or PC to scapegoat their own behavior. They have been increasingly abhorrent the past 10-20 years.

blungld said:

---

I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

---

Quote:

---

11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

---

This is like the suicide hot line message at "I'm with Her."

Golden One said:

---

blungld said:

---

I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

---

Quote:

---

11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

---

---

Thanks for taking the time and being so clear.

Obviously there are things in your responses I disagree with--but my intention wasn't to argue but to hear where you stand. That said, the one thing I can't get my head around is feeling that he has been good for the country--but this is where our points of view and personal politics probably deviate.

Anarchistbear said:

---

This is like the suicide hot line message at "I'm with Her."

---

I don't get it.

blungld said:

---

Golden One said:

---

blungld said:

---

I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

---

Quote:

---

11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

---

---

Thanks for taking the time and being so clear.

Obviously there are things in your responses I disagree with--but my intention wasn't to argue but to hear where you stand. That said, the one thing I can't get my head around is feeling that he has been good for the country--but this is where our points of view and personal politics probably deviate.

---

Agreed. Two things that stand out to me are saying it isn't clear Mueller is respected and ethical. Through this opening created by Trump and Fox News they can drive their followers through whatever opening they want. The 2nd thing is saying "there's no doubt that he is improving the country".

Oh, there's lots of doubt in that regard.

dajo9 said:

---

blungld said:

---

Golden One said:

---

blungld said:

---

I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

---

Quote:

---

11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

---

---

Thanks for taking the time and being so clear.

Obviously there are things in your responses I disagree with--but my intention wasn't to argue but to hear where you stand. That said, the one thing I can't get my head around is feeling that he has been good for the country--but this is where our points of view and personal politics probably deviate.

---

Agreed. Two things that stand out to me are saying it isn't clear Mueller is respected and ethical. Through this opening created by Trump and Fox News they can drive their followers through whatever opening they want. The 2nd thing is saying "there's no doubt that he is improving the country".

Oh, there's lots of doubt in that regard.

---

Also, saying that there is "serious doubt" that the investigation is justified.

Five guilty pleas thus far. How is it unjustified?

Golden One said:

---

blungld said:

---

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

---

---

"One thing is true of all major political scandals: What we know in the moment is but a tiny, obscured, partial view of the full story later revealed by investigators.

• That's what makes the Trump-Russia drama all the more remarkable.
• Forget all we don't know. The known facts that even Trump's closest friends don't deny tell a damning tale that would sink most leaders.

Here's a guide that Jim VandeHei and I put together to the known knowns of Russia:

• We know Paul Manafort, former Trump campaign chair, has been indicted on 32 counts, includingconspiracy and money laundering. We know he made millions off shady Russians and changed the Republican platform to the benefit of Russia.
• We know that the U.S. intelligence community concluded, in a report released in January 2017, that Russian President Vladimir Putin "ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election," to "denigrate" Hillary Clinton and with "a clear preference for ... Trump."
• We know that in May 2016, Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat Russia had political dirt on Hillary. "About three weeks earlier," according to the N.Y. Times, "Papadopoulos had been told that Moscow had thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton."
• We know that in June 2016, Trump's closest aides and family members met at Trump Tower with a shady group or Russians who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. The meeting was billed as"part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."
• We know the Russian lawyer who helped set it up concealedher close ties to Putin government.
• We know that in July 2016, Trump said: ""Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 [Hillary] emails that are missing," and urged their publication.
• We know that on Air Force One a year later, Trump helped his son, Don Jr., prepare a misleading statement about the meeting. We know top aides freaked out about this.
• We know Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting.
• We know Michael Flynn, former national security adviser and close campaign aide, lied to Vice President Pence and FBI about his Russia-related chats. We know he's now cooperating with special counsel Robert Mueller. We know Trump initially tried to protect Flynn with loyalty and fervency rarely shown by Trump to others.
• We know that during the transition, Jared Kushner spoke with the Russian ambassador "about establishing a secret communications channel between the Trump transition team and Moscow." We know Kushner omitted previous contacts with Russians on his disclosure forms.
• We know Trump initially liedabout why he fired James Comey, later admitting he was canned because of the "Russia thing."
• We know Michael Cohen was a close adviser and lawyer, the fixer and secret-keeper. We know Trump seethed when the FBI raided Cohen's office.
• We know that in January 2016, just before Republicans began voting, Michael Cohen tried to restart a Trump Tower project in Moscow.
• We know Mueller questioned a Russian oligarch who made payments to Cohen who used the money to pay off a porn star who allegedly had an affair with Trump.
• We know that oligarch was a bad enough dude that the Trump administration sanctioned him.

Be smart: The undisputed known knowns about Trump, Russia and his associates are damning and possibly actionable. But the known unknowns of how much more Robert Mueller knows that is publicly unknown is what spooks Trump allies most." Axios


CONCLUSION: Golden One's comment proves my case why no member of the tRump Crime Family or its associates should ever plead guilty to any criminal charge arising from this matter because 40% of the electorate is willing to engage in jury nullification and refuse to follow the law. Therefore the odds of at least one juror holding out with regard to voting for conviction are overwhelming....and that is all you need for a hung jury.

James Clapper's bombshell: Russia swung the election. What if he's right?

This has been posted elsewhere here. Clapper is the former Director of National Intelligence. Former USAF general.

The guy is privy to information and conceptually he has insight to how it would happen and the players involved in Russia. I believe he's a Dubya Bush appointee, if that matters.

bearister said:

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Golden One said:

---

blungld said:

---

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

---

---

"One thing is true of all major political scandals: What we know in the moment is but a tiny, obscured, partial view of the full story later revealed by investigators.

• That's what makes the Trump-Russia drama all the more remarkable.
• Forget all we don't know. The known facts that even Trump's closest friends don't deny tell a damning tale that would sink most leaders.

Here's a guide that Jim VandeHei and I put together to the known knowns of Russia:

• We know Paul Manafort, former Trump campaign chair, has been indicted on 32 counts, includingconspiracy and money laundering. We know he made millions off shady Russians and changed the Republican platform to the benefit of Russia.
• We know that the U.S. intelligence community concluded, in a report released in January 2017, that Russian President Vladimir Putin "ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election," to "denigrate" Hillary Clinton and with "a clear preference for ... Trump."
• We know that in May 2016, Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat Russia had political dirt on Hillary. "About three weeks earlier," according to the N.Y. Times, "Papadopoulos had been told that Moscow had thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton."
• We know that in June 2016, Trump's closest aides and family members met at Trump Tower with a shady group or Russians who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. The meeting was billed as"part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."
• We know the Russian lawyer who helped set it up concealedher close ties to Putin government.
• We know that in July 2016, Trump said: ""Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 [Hillary] emails that are missing," and urged their publication.
• We know that on Air Force One a year later, Trump helped his son, Don Jr., prepare a misleading statement about the meeting. We know top aides freaked out about this.
• We know Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting.
• We know Michael Flynn, former national security adviser and close campaign aide, lied to Vice President Pence and FBI about his Russia-related chats. We know he's now cooperating with special counsel Robert Mueller. We know Trump initially tried to protect Flynn with loyalty and fervency rarely shown by Trump to others.
• We know that during the transition, Jared Kushner spoke with the Russian ambassador "about establishing a secret communications channel between the Trump transition team and Moscow." We know Kushner omitted previous contacts with Russians on his disclosure forms.
• We know Trump initially liedabout why he fired James Comey, later admitting he was canned because of the "Russia thing."
• We know Michael Cohen was a close adviser and lawyer, the fixer and secret-keeper. We know Trump seethed when the FBI raided Cohen's office.
• We know that in January 2016, just before Republicans began voting, Michael Cohen tried to restart a Trump Tower project in Moscow.
• We know Mueller questioned a Russian oligarch who made payments to Cohen who used the money to pay off a porn star who allegedly had an affair with Trump.
• We know that oligarch was a bad enough dude that the Trump administration sanctioned him.

Be smart: The undisputed known knowns about Trump, Russia and his associates are damning and possibly actionable. But the known unknowns of how much more Robert Mueller knows that is publicly unknown is what spooks Trump allies most." Axios


CONCLUSION: Golden One's comment proves my case why no member of the tRump Crime Family or its associates should ever plead guilty to any criminal charge arising from this matter because 40% of the electorate is willing to engage in jury nullification and refuse to follow the law. Therefore the odds of at least one juror holding out with regard to voting for conviction are overwhelming....and that is all you need for a hung jury.

---

Now switch the above names to Obama and Obama people, and I'm sure Golden One would have the same reaction.

I'm calling bs on that as a false equivalent. I am an "Obama person" and I would vote guilty in a heartbeat on the evidence I have read about if he was so charged. I don't think we have seen the refusal to acknowledge the truth of indistputable facts on this scale by the supporters of a political candidate in my lifetime. It is one thing to say "I don't care what he did, he is my guy pushing my agenda" but quite another to deny the truth of objective facts just to make you feel less dishonest about supporting a horrible human being.

Golden Onenote didn't just drink the Kool Aid - he baths in it every day. It's in his veins.

bearister said:

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I'm calling bs on that as a false equivalent. I am an "Obama person" and I would vote guilty in a heartbeat on the evidence I have read about if he was so charged. I don't think we have seen the refusal to acknowledge the truth of indistputable facts on this scale by the supporters of a political candidate in my lifetime. It is one thing to say "I don't care what he did, he is my guy pushing my agenda" but quite another to deny the truth of objective facts just to make you feel less dishonest about supporting a horrible human being.

---

You're getting a little carried away, aren't you? You're letting your hateful emotions get the best of you. Maybe you should take up yoga.

blungld said:

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BearNIt said:

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They're standing on the edge of a cliff staring down into the abyss like the rest of us wondering how in the hell did we get here and when will help get here? There are still a few who are enamored of the illustrious leader who are willing to fling themselves off the cliff

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Are they? That would give me some hope if true? You wonder how countries fall into moral decay and why the people don't rise up and stop it...and then you watch FOX news and you see the lies and the hatred and the sense that every message and lever of power is being manipulated...and that people are listening and believing, and you come to understand how it happens in your own lifetime in your own country, and that the nice couple next door with the American flag on their SUV are exactly the same as those who were silent and complicit under totalitarian regimes in the past.

Twenty years from now, hopefully not after a great war and the loss of our fundamental American identity and rights, these same people will still wave the flag for whomever is in power then and have no recollection of supporting this President now. They will watch the movie about Mueller's heroic investigation and get teary eyed and say "what a great American hero" even as they shout "end the investigation" today.

I am so disappointed with the character of our country and what we have allowed the Conservatives to say in the culture wars. There is no we-said, they-said, when it comes to the culture war. The conservatives bred antipathy, judgement, regression, mean-spiritedness, hatred...they own that and can't use their BS excuses of identity politics or PC to scapegoat their own behavior. They have been increasingly abhorrent the past 10-20 years.

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Since Bobby Kennedy died, and so many of his supporters/followers went over to Wallace; but officially since Lee Atwater, whose Willie Horton ad was, literally, a criticism of a Massachusetts statute which was an exact duplicate of a California statute signed into law by Reagan [whose first memorable actions on the national stage were (a) to go to the grave of the KKK members in Mississippi who killed and otherwise violated black people to prevent them from voting, (b) go to the grave of WWII SS Soldiers in Germany, and (c) break the air traffic controllers union (which had supported him in the election), and after which actions he largely went South (so to speak), certainly domestically.

blungld said:

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Golden One said:

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blungld said:

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I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

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Quote:

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11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

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Thanks for taking the time and being so clear.

Obviously there are things in your responses I disagree with--but my intention wasn't to argue but to hear where you stand. That said, the one thing I can't get my head around is feeling that he has been good for the country--but this is where our points of view and personal politics probably deviate.

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I do believe that the issue whether Trump has been "good for the country" is one that is well worth exploring in substantive (and, to the degree possible, objective) detail; and, to the extent it cannot be objectified, at least it would be beneficial to reveal the articulated differences - if only to better fight the evil.

bearister said:

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Golden One said:

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blungld said:

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6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

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"One thing is true of all major political scandals: What we know in the moment is but a tiny, obscured, partial view of the full story later revealed by investigators.

• That's what makes the Trump-Russia drama all the more remarkable.
• Forget all we don't know. The known facts that even Trump's closest friends don't deny tell a damning tale that would sink most leaders.

Here's a guide that Jim VandeHei and I put together to the known knowns of Russia:

• We know Paul Manafort, former Trump campaign chair, has been indicted on 32 counts, includingconspiracy and money laundering. We know he made millions off shady Russians and changed the Republican platform to the benefit of Russia.
• We know that the U.S. intelligence community concluded, in a report released in January 2017, that Russian President Vladimir Putin "ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election," to "denigrate" Hillary Clinton and with "a clear preference for ... Trump."
• We know that in May 2016, Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos told an Australian diplomat Russia had political dirt on Hillary. "About three weeks earlier," according to the N.Y. Times, "Papadopoulos had been told that Moscow had thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton."
• We know that in June 2016, Trump's closest aides and family members met at Trump Tower with a shady group or Russians who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. The meeting was billed as"part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump."
• We know the Russian lawyer who helped set it up concealedher close ties to Putin government.
• We know that in July 2016, Trump said: ""Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 [Hillary] emails that are missing," and urged their publication.
• We know that on Air Force One a year later, Trump helped his son, Don Jr., prepare a misleading statement about the meeting. We know top aides freaked out about this.
• We know Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting.
• We know Michael Flynn, former national security adviser and close campaign aide, lied to Vice President Pence and FBI about his Russia-related chats. We know he's now cooperating with special counsel Robert Mueller. We know Trump initially tried to protect Flynn with loyalty and fervency rarely shown by Trump to others.
• We know that during the transition, Jared Kushner spoke with the Russian ambassador "about establishing a secret communications channel between the Trump transition team and Moscow." We know Kushner omitted previous contacts with Russians on his disclosure forms.
• We know Trump initially liedabout why he fired James Comey, later admitting he was canned because of the "Russia thing."
• We know Michael Cohen was a close adviser and lawyer, the fixer and secret-keeper. We know Trump seethed when the FBI raided Cohen's office.
• We know that in January 2016, just before Republicans began voting, Michael Cohen tried to restart a Trump Tower project in Moscow.
• We know Mueller questioned a Russian oligarch who made payments to Cohen who used the money to pay off a porn star who allegedly had an affair with Trump.
• We know that oligarch was a bad enough dude that the Trump administration sanctioned him.

Be smart: The undisputed known knowns about Trump, Russia and his associates are damning and possibly actionable. But the known unknowns of how much more Robert Mueller knows that is publicly unknown is what spooks Trump allies most." Axios


CONCLUSION: Golden One's comment proves my case why no member of the tRump Crime Family or its associates should ever plead guilty to any criminal charge arising from this matter because 40% of the electorate is willing to engage in jury nullification and refuse to follow the law. Therefore the odds of at least one juror holding out with regard to voting for conviction are overwhelming....and that is all you need for a hung jury.

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Meaningful to add that the reason the Trumps tried to mis-lead about the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting (by calling it about adoption) was not only that Don Jr. thought it was about dirt on Hillary but was because what the Russians wanted was rescinding of the Magnitsky Act which imposes heavy monetary sanctions on the governing circle around Putin (to a degree which affects the Russian economy), in response to Putin's murder of a Russian lawyer representing an American businessman, which lawyer was in process of exposing massive Russian corruption, money laundering, "reketeering", etc.

Another Bear said:

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James Clapper's bombshell: Russia swung the election. What if he's right?

This has been posted elsewhere here. Clapper is the former Director of National Intelligence. Former USAF general.

The guy is privy to information and conceptually he has insight to how it would happen and the players involved in Russia. I believe he's a Dubya Bush appointee, if that matters.

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FWIW: His basic argument is that, in an election won by a combination of total ca. 80,000 votes, mostly in certain areas of three states (on which the Russians were concentrating their quasi-carpet-bombing digital efforts), it is hard to argue that that influence did not swing the election.

As I have stated on this board before: In light of the use of similar tactics (lies, appeals to divisive prejudices, etc.) by the Republicans (certainly since Willie Horton) (all of which were legal), why was it necessary for the Russians to do the same things (when, just by virtue of the Russians doing probably no more than the extensive right wing machinery could do, and had the resources to do - a single contribution by Sheldon Adelson might have been enough resources, the same conduct was now IL-legal) - especially in combination with the extensive, national right wing voting suppression of Democratic voters.

Golden One said:

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bearister said:

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I'm calling bs on that as a false equivalent. I am an "Obama person" and I would vote guilty in a heartbeat on the evidence I have read about if he was so charged. I don't think we have seen the refusal to acknowledge the truth of indistputable facts on this scale by the supporters of a political candidate in my lifetime. It is one thing to say "I don't care what he did, he is my guy pushing my agenda" but quite another to deny the truth of objective facts just to make you feel less dishonest about supporting a horrible human being.

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You're getting a little carried away, aren't you? You're letting your hateful emotions get the best of you. Maybe you should take up yoga.

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I'm hateful for calling tRump a horrible human being? Please articulate the error of my ways.

You are hateful because you do not fall in to lock-step support for Dear Orange Leader. Remember: It's Ok If He's A Republican.

beautiful sad songs for the old Republic, here

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/21/big-tech-products-silicon-valley

Golden One said:

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blungld said:

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I understand that I am offering constricted and leading choices, but I am trying to understand the actual positions of Trump supporters. Can you answer these questions without mentioning Obama, Clinton, or using any Trumpisms or "talking points"? Just answer in your own words with your own affirmative opinion--what you are for, NOT what you are against (i.e. whataboutisms or trying to draw equivalency). A lot of Democrat talking points are implicit in your questions below.

1) Do you believe the intelligence reports, both domestic and international, that conclude that Russia interfered with our election and that that is a really big deal-we do not want other countries interfering in our elections? Yes, but I believe that the interference is less extensive than is being implied by many news organizations and that the interference impacted both political parties.

2) Do you believe that we should investigate and must know the answer to how and why Russia interfered with our election? Yes.

3) Do you believe that Russian interference in our election could be a complex answer that is a combination of misinformation, bribes, influence, extortion...and so investigating financial transactions, meetings, travel, and anything else that could create either Kompromat or a quid quo pro arrangement must be examined? Probably to the first part and yes to the second.

4) Do you believe the Robert Mueller is a highly respected and ethical American and investigator and that his motives and process should not be obstructed or maligned before he has even completed the investigation? No.

5) Do you believe that Donald Trump is behaving like an innocent person? Yes.

6) Have you read a non-Conservative media summary of the investigation and, if so, do you believe that the investigation has uncovered much that is troubling and so the investigation is justified? Yes, I have read such summaries, but I do not believe that the investigation has revealed much of substance; at this point, I think there is serious doubt that the investigation is justified.

7) Do you want to know the truth of what happened, or do you not want to know the truth because it might have an impact on Donald Trump's Presidency? Yes, I want to know the truth, including whether the allegations of obstruction of justice by the Democrats and the prior administration are true and if prosecutions are in order.

8) Is Trump's criminality important to you? If he has in fact obstructed justice, or conspired in some degree or another with foreign nationals, or sold access to the White House, or laundered money, or committed other crimes either to gain office or to hold office, do you believe he should be held accountable or do you believe the President is above the law or that you don't care about the laws in this case because you want him to remain in office? Yes, if he has committed these offenses, he should be held accountable.

9) Do you believe what Trump says over findings by intelligence and investigators? I'm remaining open-minded.

10) If we assume that Trump is completely innocent, do you believe that his Presidency (the way he conducts himself and the people he surrounds himself with) is a model for the office and a success that is improving the country and the world--this is what the we need more of in future Presidents? A model, no. But there's no doubt that he is improving the country and he is a significant improvement over his predecesor.

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Quote:

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11) Finally, do you think it would be good for the country for him to resign, even if completely innocent, just because his overall effect on the country is too destructive--that he has turned Americans against one another, he has weakened our institutions, he has undermined trust in Presidency, that his policies are too impulsive and motives too opaque--even if you like him and feel he has represented you that he has not representing the whole of the country, the majority of whom feel that he governs for just his base and own self interest? Should we have a President that caters to so few and ignores the rest--and who profits directly while in office from his own decisions? In short, even if you agree with some of his politics, can he still be a bad President who should resign because he can no longer be an effective leader for all? He should absolutely not resign. Although his personality and many personal characteristics leave much to be desired, his policies are good for the country.

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I looked at your answers again and had two questions:

1) You say that that you agree that Russia interfered with our election, and that you want to know the truth...but then your not sure the investigation is justified. Isn't it justified because you want to know the truth? Isn't it justified because it has uncovered a lot more information--isn't that by definition justifying it, meaning it is working (finding stuff).

2) You said Trump is behaving like an innocent man. Can you explain? Wouldn't an innocent man encourage rather than block and criticize the investigation? Wouldn't his first and foremost concern be stopping the Russians from doing this again and not protecting himself and calling it a witch hunt and breaking norms and laws to hinder the investigation?

bearister said:

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Golden One said:

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bearister said:

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I'm calling bs on that as a false equivalent. I am an "Obama person" and I would vote guilty in a heartbeat on the evidence I have read about if he was so charged. I don't think we have seen the refusal to acknowledge the truth of indistputable facts on this scale by the supporters of a political candidate in my lifetime. It is one thing to say "I don't care what he did, he is my guy pushing my agenda" but quite another to deny the truth of objective facts just to make you feel less dishonest about supporting a horrible human being.

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You're getting a little carried away, aren't you? You're letting your hateful emotions get the best of you. Maybe you should take up yoga.

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I'm hateful for calling tRump a horrible human being? Please articulate the error of my ways.

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I'll admit it.
I am hateful of THAT horrible human being!
Nothing wrong with that. It's good to know what one stands for, what one stands against, and is able to differentiate between the two.

I do not affiliate with or root for a political party like a football team. That is not the case with most, I have found.