Unit2Sucks said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Words have meanings. Show your work and provide specific definitions and then explain how it applies to Trump specifically, and not other presidents.

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What non-authoritarian meanings would BearGoggles ascribe to Trump's latest tweets?

"Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China"

Please don't waste your breath noting that his words are just proclamations and don't yet have the force of law - that argument is essentially saying that words don't have meanings when spoken by the President. But please do tell us why you think statements like this aren't the mark of an authoritarian leader.

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They are stupid tweets - like most of Trump's are. You keep asserting that I'm a Trump apologist, but that is far from the truth. I think he's a buffoon and didn't/won't vote for him. That being said, I think what he wrote is largely (but not completely) harmless. Many presidents and politicians make aspirational statements ("buy american" or or "hope and change") that imply but don't actually undertake action. Trump's use of the word "order" is stupid - but did he actually order it? Do you believe that he will actually order it?

How is what Trump said materially different from Obama holding a workers summit and saying that companies "need to pay" higher wages?

You are so consumed with Trump derangement syndrome that you're now conflating tweets with executive orders. Trump is playing you like a fiddle and you are being consumed by a constant state of faux outrage. Keep swinging at the windmills.

In the meantime, there are things Trump is actually considering doing - revoking birthright citizenship by executive order - that would be authoritarian. And I'll be the first to say so (if he does it). That is the difference between you and me - I'll call balls and strikes regardless of the pitcher.

You, on the other hand, have convinced yourself that Trump is "worse." And you refuse to acknowledge that Obama's abuse of executive orders (DACA and modifications of Obamacare laws/deadlines) paved the way for every borderline EO that Trump has issued (or might issue). Unless I'm mistaken, you have never criticized Obama for any of that which makes you a partisan/hypocrite because you only object when you oppose the policy. Feel free to correct me on that by telling me you think the Obama EO's were equally wrong and authoritarian to Trump's.

BearGoggles said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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BearGoggles said:

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Words have meanings. Show your work and provide specific definitions and then explain how it applies to Trump specifically, and not other presidents.

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What non-authoritarian meanings would BearGoggles ascribe to Trump's latest tweets?

"Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China"

Please don't waste your breath noting that his words are just proclamations and don't yet have the force of law - that argument is essentially saying that words don't have meanings when spoken by the President. But please do tell us why you think statements like this aren't the mark of an authoritarian leader.

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They are stupid tweets - like most of Trump's are. You keep asserting that I'm a Trump apologist, but that is far from the truth. I think he's a buffoon and didn't/won't vote for him. That being said, I think what he wrote is largely (but not completely) harmless. Many presidents and politicians make aspirational statements ("buy american" or or "hope and change") that imply but don't actually undertake action. Trump's use of the word "order" is stupid - but did he actually order it? Do you believe that he will actually order it?

How is what Trump said materially different from Obama holding a workers summit and saying that companies "need to pay" higher wages?

You are so consumed with Trump derangement syndrome that you're now conflating tweets with executive orders. Trump is playing you like a fiddle and you are being consumed by a constant state of faux outrage. Keep swinging at the windmills.

In the meantime, there are things Trump is actually considering doing - revoking birthright citizenship by executive order - that would be authoritarian. And I'll be the first to say so (if he does it). That is the difference between you and me - I'll call balls and strikes regardless of the pitcher.

You, on the other hand, have convinced yourself that Trump is "worse." And you refuse to acknowledge that Obama's abuse of executive orders (DACA and modifications of Obamacare laws/deadlines) paved the way for every borderline EO that Trump has issued (or might issue). Unless I'm mistaken, you have never criticized Obama for any of that which makes you a partisan/hypocrite because you only object when you oppose the policy. Feel free to correct me on that by telling me you think the Obama EO's were equally wrong and authoritarian to Trump's.

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Trump as President threatens to change the constitution by executive order- not authoritarian until he does it. One candidate, Kamala Harris, says she will issue an executive order and Democrats are authoritarian.

The only one with Trump derangement is Trump. He is Trump and he is deranged. What he has done today has been to tank the market so he can have a tantrum.

You on the other hand have Trump enablement syndrome. Sorry, you can quit your little "he's a buffoon" hedges while you fight and fight and fight for him. Doesn't wash. His policies on the economy are psychotic in comparison to republican conservative beliefs. His foreign policy is psychotic compared to traditional republican values. Conservatives like you who have enabled him are fully to blame for this.

California turned liberal after 24 of 28 years of Republican governors because the state Republican Party lost its collective mind. You want to repeat that nationally fine.

BearGoggles - your response is predictably preposterous.

You want to make an argument that Obama's use of executive power was excessive and not what the founding fathers anticipated or would have accepted? I will stand beside you. Instead you want to make an argument that Obama's use of that power was unique relative to recent presidents and that is a much harder sell. Obama used EOs largely to enact policies supported by the American people. Some of those were excessive. A lot of it was through proper agency rulemaking backed by legitimate process.

Trump's abuse of power has nothing to do with Obama. It's completely spurious to claim that they are somehow related. Trump has no sense of history and doesn't care one whit for norms, the constitution or any claims that what he is doing is improper. He takes action and waits for the fallout. He is enacting policies that are opposed by the American public. He is forcing his agencies to rollback valid rulemaking actions in violation of the administration procedure act. His political appointees are running rampant throughout executive agencies and certainly causing them to violate the laws that enabled and govern their actions. The IG reports that continue to come out near this opinion out. He has claimed (through subordinates) that his authority on immigration and national security is absolute. I don't think anyone with a clue will dispute that when all is said and done history will mark Trump's regime as the most unlawful one in modern US history and it won't even be close. He is testing the limits of a vague constitution every single day and our country is suffering for it. You will be an outlier as a conservative challenging his EO on birthright citizenship. The rest will cheer him on as they have his dismantling of the EPA and the state department.

Of course you quibble that a tweet claiming to order private industry to take some action is harmless because. And that would be true if the president's words have no meaning. But as you noted earlier, words do have meaning. That's why he is leading us headfirst into a recession and that's why the market has had so much volatility. Today's dumb tweet caused the market to fall 500 points. That doesn't seem harmless to me.

And as I pointed out earlier, and OTB notes above, this all started because you said Kamala Harris is more authoritarian than Trump. Even for you that is a preposterous position to take.

BearGoggles said:

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That being said, I think what he wrote is largely (but not completely) harmless. Many presidents and politicians make aspirational statements ("buy american" or or "hope and change") that imply but don't actually undertake action. Trump's use of the word "order" is stupid - but did he actually order it? Do you believe that he will actually order it?

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Trump is now threatening to assert his order under the IEEPA and claims he has the absolute right to do so.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/24/politics/trump-china-trade-war-emergency-economic-powers-act/index.html

But you still want us to believe that Kamala Harris is more authoritarian than Trump because that one time she said she would do something about guns.

TDS, indeed.

By the way, you may not think of yourself as a Trump apologist but you are the functional equivalent of one.