Anyone watch debate?

6,724 Views | 112 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by BearlyCareAnymore
concordtom
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kelly09 said:

concordtom said:

GBear4Life said:

concordtom said:

Yang and Steyer seem like decent, good, fellows. I'd enjoy that beer conversation with them. But I have never considered them for office of president.
Steyer seems like a lunatic


What's that make Trump?
Honest question. And here's your chance to sound like you have your head screwed on straight.
An effective president?


No, Kelly, I wasn't talking to you.
But you have confirmed for us all who you are.

Impeached. Aides in jail. Cheats on wife. Liar. Berates EVERYONE constantly. Debt exploder. One day, the stock market is going to take a shtt. When that happens, trillions of dollars of gains will evaporate. But the I.O.U's will remain.
And you say "effective"?
What a dumbass.
bearister
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concordtom said:

kelly09 said:

concordtom said:

GBear4Life said:

concordtom said:

Yang and Steyer seem like decent, good, fellows. I'd enjoy that beer conversation with them. But I have never considered them for office of president.
Steyer seems like a lunatic


What's that make Trump?
Honest question. And here's your chance to sound like you have your head screwed on straight.
An effective president?


No, Kelly, I wasn't talking to you.
But you have confirmed for us all who you are.

Impeached. Aides in jail. Cheats on wife. Liar. Berates EVERYONE constantly. Debt exploder. One day, the stock market is going to take a shtt. When that happens, trillions of dollars of gains will evaporate. But the I.O.U's will remain.
And you say "effective"?
What a dumbass.


Trump's policy record: environment, Wall Street regulation, and more - Vox


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/2/20970521/trump-administration-achievements
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/12/2/20970521/trump-administration-achievements
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
kelly09
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concordtom said:

kelly09 said:

concordtom said:

GBear4Life said:

concordtom said:

Yang and Steyer seem like decent, good, fellows. I'd enjoy that beer conversation with them. But I have never considered them for office of president.
Steyer seems like a lunatic


What's that make Trump?
Honest question. And here's your chance to sound like you have your head screwed on straight.
An effective president?


No, Kelly, I wasn't talking to you.
But you have confirmed for us all who you are.

Impeached. Aides in jail. Cheats on wife. Liar. Berates EVERYONE constantly. Debt exploder. One day, the stock market is going to take a shtt. When that happens, trillions of dollars of gains will evaporate. But the I.O.U's will remain.
And you say "effective"?
What a dumbass.
Dumbass! Nice.
I'm happy with his court selections. I believe the market is due for a precipitous fall I went to cash at 26000. There's a bubble there but the economy by most measurements is great.
Do I think Trump is a jerk by some of the things you listed. You bet. I absolutely did not vote for him. I was a Rubio supporter. Trump' s mouth and general jerkyness abhorred me. But having come of age in the sixties and being a Cal student, I detest lefties. And I find you typical of left that I detest. So go #### yourself.
concordtom
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Me? A leftist?
Ha! What a laugher that is.
I grew up with a signed portrait of Nixon in the house. My stepfather's name is on a plaque for Lifetime Eagles at the RNC HQ in DC.

I am not a leftist. But I am "woke" to the reality of the Republican Party.

Reaganomics exploded the debt.
Newt, never give Clinton an inch. No crossing the isle. No bipartisanship.
Clinton Impeachment: consenting adults, taped conversation between Lewinsky and Tripp made public against Lewinsky's wishes. Clinton lied about sex, and this PALES in comparison to everyone in the WH today!!!
Cheney manufactured fake evidence of WMD in Iraq.
Bush: "You're either with us or with the terrorists" ultimatum.
Trump: "Grab em by the *****"
Ryan: "well, he's the leader of the party now" (so I won't oppose anything he says or does).
McConnell: an election is in a year, so we'll just hang on Garland (and hundreds of other Obama federal judge nominees) and hope we win in 2016. But now if RBG dies in December 2020, oh goody goody we will fill that seat immediately!
Graham and McConnell: I won't listen to evidence. I am not an impartial juror.
And who was it that said, "Deficits don't matter." Cheney? Well my children and grandchildren will be paying off the current folly. Who was the last President to have a balanced budget? A democrat.
Buddy, let me tell you, the Republican Party is a freaking nightmare of nonsense!
And Rubio didn't run in the general, so who did you vote for in November? It's people like you who are responsible for allowing this Horse in the Hospital.



So shove ALL of that up a pie hole nearest you.
By the way, disclaimer here, it's okay to speak that way to one another these days, courtesy of Donald J. Jerkoff.
GBear4Life
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concordtom said:

GBear4Life said:

concordtom said:

Yang and Steyer seem like decent, good, fellows. I'd enjoy that beer conversation with them. But I have never considered them for office of president.
Steyer seems like a lunatic


What's that make Trump?
Honest question. And here's your chance to sound like you have your head screwed on straight.
It just seemed like he answered every question with "it's a global warming crisis!" lol
GBear4Life
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kelly09 said:

concordtom said:

GBear4Life said:

concordtom said:

Yang and Steyer seem like decent, good, fellows. I'd enjoy that beer conversation with them. But I have never considered them for office of president.
Steyer seems like a lunatic


What's that make Trump?
Honest question. And here's your chance to sound like you have your head screwed on straight.
An effective president?
He's failed on his two most notable campaign issues -- immigration and health care. That's more of a Republican party problem but nonetheless that is generally how presidents are judged...by how well they get their party on board with their agenda and policy priorities. Finally enforcing federal law on immigration is a positive step but still pretty inadequate
kelly09
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concordtom said:

Me? A leftist?
Ha! What a laugher that is.
I grew up with a signed portrait of Nixon in the house. My stepfather's name is on a plaque for Lifetime Eagles at the RNC HQ in DC.

I am not a leftist. But I am "woke" to the reality of the Republican Party.

Reaganomics exploded the debt.
Newt, never give Clinton an inch. No crossing the isle. No bipartisanship.
Clinton Impeachment: consenting adults, taped conversation between Lewinsky and Tripp made public against Lewinsky's wishes. Clinton lied about sex, and this PALES in comparison to everyone in the WH today!!!
Cheney manufactured fake evidence of WMD in Iraq.
Bush: "You're either with us or with the terrorists" ultimatum.
Trump: "Grab em by the *****"
Ryan: "well, he's the leader of the party now" (so I won't oppose anything he says or does).
McConnell: an election is in a year, so we'll just hang on Garland (and hundreds of other Obama federal judge nominees) and hope we win in 2016. But now if RBG dies in December 2020, oh goody goody we will fill that seat immediately!
Graham and McConnell: I won't listen to evidence. I am not an impartial juror.
And who was it that said, "Deficits don't matter." Cheney? Well my children and grandchildren will be paying off the current folly. Who was the last President to have a balanced budget? A democrat.
Buddy, let me tell you, the Republican Party is a freaking nightmare of nonsense!
And Rubio didn't run in the general, so who did you vote for in November? It's people like you who are responsible for allowing this Horse in the Hospital.



So shove ALL of that up a pie hole nearest you.
By the way, disclaimer here, it's okay to speak that way to one another these days, courtesy of Donald J. Jerkoff.
Tom....you're a LEFTY!///
From Concord.........BE PROUD!
dajo9
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Heading for $2 trillion deficits and QE5. No $h!t the economy is doing ok.
kelly09
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dajo9 said:

Heading for $2 trillion deficits and QE5. No $h!t the economy is doing ok.
I agree wthj you on government debt spending, Dajo. I'm sure you are aware that government spending as a percentage of GDP was higher in the years 2009 to 2014 than it was in 2019. I'll bet you were pissed.
concordtom
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Nice of you to casually overlook the circumstances of 09-14.
Context is everything. Reminds me of the saying. "There are statistics, lies, and damn lies."
dajo9
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kelly09 said:

dajo9 said:

Heading for $2 trillion deficits and QE5. No $h!t the economy is doing ok.
I agree wthj you on government debt spending, Dajo. I'm sure you are aware that government spending as a percentage of GDP was higher in the years 2009 to 2014 than it was in 2019. I'll bet you were pissed.


No, I wasn't. Responsible fiscal policy means running higher deficits in bad times and lower / none in the good times. Critical thought requires understanding context and how the right answer can change depending on circumstances.
bearister
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SNL's cold open turned the 6th Democratic debate into the Jerry Springer show - Vox


https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/12/22/21033812/snl-cold-open-democratic-debate-wine-caves
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
wifeisafurd
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dajo9 said:


Responsible fiscal policy means running higher deficits in bad times and lower / none in the good times. Critical thought requires understanding context and how the right answer can change depending on circumstances.
Dajo and I often go at it on economic policy, but what he says is exactly correct. This is also why the Fed is supposed to be independent and we have councils of economic advisors, etc. The problem is our economic policy has become political, with using taxes and spending on a macro basis for political ideology. For example, we had a President that wanted to raise taxes in the middle of a recession for purposes of income (not wealth) distribution ideals, or a current President who hammers the FED chairman to make questionable decisions, and wanted yet another tax cut and more spending when the economy was from a macro standpoint (you can argue about income or wealth distribution impacts separately) doing well, when he isn't doing stupid things on the international front.

I think the disconnect is how you address what comprises taxes and spending versus the macro impact of the level of spending versus taxes (how you move the deficit needle). For example, in a recession, you can have a tax policy that reduces taxes for stimulus, but provides the tax cut benefits to lower income or less-wealthy people to achieve redistribution policy. Or you can provide the benefits to "job creators" who are likely the more wealthy or higher income people. This depends on your political/economic perspective. But what have to do is is provide a higher deficit in a recession. The same applies to views on spending and FED policy. For example, you may have dramatic views on speeding programs, but in good times, you have to carve that back and prioritize on a macro basis or you get inflation or other problems. And I do think this has become a real disconnect for today's politicians. The last President to actually get this IMO was Clinton. But we had a more bi-partisan approach in those days and Presidents we chose often were policy wonks (like Clinton) or at least listened to policy wonks (e.g., RR). Now economics seems to be dominated by political doctrine and short run political gain.
concordtom
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You are correct, sir. Bernab has explained this well. The lesson out of the Depression was instead of cutting govt spending at a time of declining tax revenue, you can increase spending (running a deficit) to soften the blow/recession.
But, the corollary is that during good times, you have to do the opposite and pay off, thereby also taming inflation.

For a reason that economists haven't well identified, outside of the stock market and certain domestically produced items, inflation has not been prevalent with our recent deficits. Inflation would normally be a check on these deficits. I suspect the reason is that international cheap labor and ever increasing efficiency in bringing products to the US market - keeps bringing in cheaper and cheaper products - and the Chinese are buying our debt even at low yields.

The bill will come due, though. It's a nightmare scenario waiting to happen.

Yields will eventually go up.
% of budget devoted to interest will bury us.
And stupid people will blame it on whomever is President at that time.

Meanwhile, all those elected officials who set the policy will have already gotten whatever is in it for them and retired.

Very sad to observe and know.

I blame republicans more than Dems. Newt Gingrich started a no compromise ideology. They would Never have let Obama run a balanced budget, even if he had tried. That would be a win for Dems, and we can't have that.
I guess you can counter and say they let Clinto have that won, but I doubt they'd do it again.

Politics now, especially for the GOP, is to swallow the suicide pill. Either they win, or we all die. Looks like we are all going to die.
GBear4Life
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the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.
sycasey
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GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?
dimitrig
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sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
GBear4Life
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Being skinnier than the fattest kid at fat camp does not mean you're healthy. Shows how delusional to think Democrats have any interest in balancing budgets regardless of economic conditions.
dimitrig
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GBear4Life said:

Being skinnier than the fattest kid at fat camp does not mean you're healthy. Shows how delusional to think Democrats have any interest in balancing budgets regardless of economic conditions.

Democrats aren't supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility. That's supposed to be the Republicans. They do an even worse job of it.
concordtom
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I grew up hearing the propaganda mantra "tax and spend democrats ". Now I realize that's not so true. The GOP runs horrible deficits, worse than Dems.

Of course, Dems aren't without blame. But if a dem wins and tries to balance the budget, and that causes the stock market to fade, don't you dare say that Dems suck per economics. Whoever tries to tame deficit fueled economy is gonna have problems. But it must be done. Otherwise, when we pop, the nation will cease to be the worl power we are today, with the dollar The reserve currency of choice.
dajo9
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The Republican strategy is to bankrupt the social safety net. Fiscal crisis is the goal. Only then can they cut Social Security and Medicare.
wifeisafurd
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dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.
Anarchistbear
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What is helping to drive the economy is not so much Trump's tax cuts but the bipartisan spending- wars and border walls to be sure, but both parties realize nothing is to be gained-only lost- by austerity. Trump was foolish to listen to his masters on tax cuts. If instead he'd gone big on bipartisan infrastructure which the Dems would have supported it would have been a bigger stimulus to the economy and his re-election.
Cal88
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Anarchistbear said:

What is helping to drive the economy is not so much Trump's tax cuts but the bipartisan spending- wars and border walls to be sure, but both parties realize nothing is to be gained-only lost- by austerity. Trump was foolish to listen to his masters on tax cuts. If instead he'd gone big on bipartisan infrastructure which the Dems would have supported it would have been a bigger stimulus to the economy and his re-election.
The border wall is order of insignificant in relation with the military budget. This has been the backbreaker in terms of budget deficits, that and the running tab from the '09 bailout.
dimitrig
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wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!

Anarchistbear
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dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
sycasey
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Anarchistbear said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
While I categorically agree with a percentage reduction in military spending, we should note the underlying reason this is the case: because after World War 2 a lot of these countries wanted our military presence as a way of maintaining order (and protecting against the Soviets). In return the USA basically got to be the global superpower, wielding more influence than anyone else. More than anything that's the inertia preventing major change here.
GBear4Life
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dimitrig said:

GBear4Life said:

Being skinnier than the fattest kid at fat camp does not mean you're healthy. Shows how delusional to think Democrats have any interest in balancing budgets regardless of economic conditions.

Democrats aren't supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility. That's supposed to be the Republicans. They do an even worse job of it.
This is just a really, really poor argument despite being correct.
GBear4Life
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Anarchistbear said:

What is helping to drive the economy is not so much Trump's tax cuts but the bipartisan spending- wars and border walls to be sure, but both parties realize nothing is to be gained-only lost- by austerity. Trump was foolish to listen to his masters on tax cuts. If instead he'd gone big on bipartisan infrastructure which the Dems would have supported it would have been a bigger stimulus to the economy and his re-election.
infrastructure?
Anarchistbear
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
While I categorically agree with a percentage reduction in military spending, we should note the underlying reason this is the case: because after World War 2 a lot of these countries wanted our military presence as a way of maintaining order (and protecting against the Soviets). In return the USA basically got to be the global superpower, wielding more influence than anyone else. More than anything that's the inertia preventing major change here.


There is no Soviet threat since 1989. There is no inertia. The US wants to be the global military superpower and it all follows from that.
sycasey
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Anarchistbear said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
While I categorically agree with a percentage reduction in military spending, we should note the underlying reason this is the case: because after World War 2 a lot of these countries wanted our military presence as a way of maintaining order (and protecting against the Soviets). In return the USA basically got to be the global superpower, wielding more influence than anyone else. More than anything that's the inertia preventing major change here.


There is no Soviet threat since 1989. There is no inertia. The US wants to be the global military superpower and it all follows from that.

Yes, correct. I agree that we can probably afford to cut back on that, but let's acknowledge that there probably are benefits to being a global superpower.
bearister
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What Does Putin Really Want?


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/magazine/russia-united-states-world-politics.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/magazine/russia-united-states-world-politics.amp.html

We're More at Risk of Nuclear War With Russia Than We Think


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/07/were-more-at-risk-of-nuclear-war-with-russia-than-we-think-229436
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/magazine/amp/story/2019/10/07/were-more-at-risk-of-nuclear-war-with-russia-than-we-think-229436

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Anarchistbear
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
While I categorically agree with a percentage reduction in military spending, we should note the underlying reason this is the case: because after World War 2 a lot of these countries wanted our military presence as a way of maintaining order (and protecting against the Soviets). In return the USA basically got to be the global superpower, wielding more influence than anyone else. More than anything that's the inertia preventing major change here.


There is no Soviet threat since 1989. There is no inertia. The US wants to be the global military superpower and it all follows from that.

Yes, correct. I agree that we can probably afford to cut back on that, but let's acknowledge that there probably are benefits to being a global superpower.


Trump and the Democrats agree. Who has an alternate view?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

Anarchistbear said:

What is helping to drive the economy is not so much Trump's tax cuts but the bipartisan spending- wars and border walls to be sure, but both parties realize nothing is to be gained-only lost- by austerity. Trump was foolish to listen to his masters on tax cuts. If instead he'd gone big on bipartisan infrastructure which the Dems would have supported it would have been a bigger stimulus to the economy and his re-election.
The border wall is order of insignificant in relation with the military budget. This has been the backbreaker in terms of budget deficits, that and the running tab from the '09 bailout.


What '09 bailout and how is it affecting us today?
dimitrig
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sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

sycasey said:

Anarchistbear said:

dimitrig said:

wifeisafurd said:

dimitrig said:

sycasey said:

GBear4Life said:

the partisan politicizing of economic policy is the reason why we'll never see the other end of this deficit and debt problem. While in power, best to keep the music on loud to keep the party going. It's not politically expedient to make the hard decisions (tax and spend) to climb out of it. When manipulating money stops working and the music stops and sh*t hits the fan, just blame the other team.

The GOP is the reason we won't see the end of this problem. The last two Democratic presidents attempted to be fiscally responsible and were followed by two Republicans who proceeded to run up whatever deficits they wanted. That's why you now have a lot of Dem voters saying "f*** it" and asking for everything they want, because why not shoot for the moon if the other guys aren't even going to try?

If there is money for tax cuts, border walls, and endless wars why can't there be money for health care, education, and clean energy? I know how I prefer my tax dollars spent.
This is exactly the macro vs. micro disconnect. There is not money for all these things, or at least not at the level of spending you seem to require. The certainly could be enough money for what you want, but you have to elect people that prioritize that spending and reduce the other spending, and that means in two branches of federal government and at your state level, since education funding, for example, typically is a state and local governmental expenditure. But looking at the federal government for the moment, Dajo has it right. Deficits (within reason) are welcome stimulus during recessions, and cause real problems when the get too high in "good times." How you develop or reduce the deficit and what spending and taxes are composed of is a micro issue (guns versus butter if you will) which you guys are free to debate. Just realize that when you hear politicians say you can have it all, you can't.

My point is that we didn't have trillions to spend on an unnecessary war in Iraq but we did it anyway - and with bipartisan support no less! So when someone like Warren wants to spend trillions more we don't have on healthcare I say: WHY NOT? At least millions of Americans will benefit from that!




Because there is a fundamental disconnect between what the people want and what congress wants

China
Saudi Arabia
Russia
India
UK
France
Japan
Germany
South Korea
Brazil

We spend more on military then all of them combined. And yet it is not enough
While I categorically agree with a percentage reduction in military spending, we should note the underlying reason this is the case: because after World War 2 a lot of these countries wanted our military presence as a way of maintaining order (and protecting against the Soviets). In return the USA basically got to be the global superpower, wielding more influence than anyone else. More than anything that's the inertia preventing major change here.


There is no Soviet threat since 1989. There is no inertia. The US wants to be the global military superpower and it all follows from that.

Yes, correct. I agree that we can probably afford to cut back on that, but let's acknowledge that there probably are benefits to being a global superpower.


Benefits who?

I think spending a large portion of tax revenues on defense may make sense to the oligarchs who benefit most by it - and a lot of it is after all their tax dollars. What does not make sense is to run huge deficits trying to do so, especially at the expense of the American standard of living.

If a nation has to borrow like the US does to be a superpower then it is not a superpower. It is closer to a banana republic.

The trajectory of the American standard of living reflects that as do, increasingly our morals and ideals. The US has a wannabe strongman in office and half of our elected representatives are fine with that as long as they get a piece of the pie. The concerns of most Americans are not their problem.
 
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